Merged: JetStarization Of Qantas Finished
I have no doubt that there are feather - bedding unionists in Qantas.
I have no doubt that there are overpaid pilots.
I have no doubt that there are incompetent and over paid managers as well.
But ferchrissake the cure administered by the current Board is worse than the disease.
All of QF's problems start at the very top - the Board and Senior Management.
The rest of the company takes its cues from them - it's called "modelling the behaviour". Ask Mr. Fyffe at Air New Zealand what that means.
When the staff see the Board and Senior management knocking back champagne in the Chairmans lounge while stuffing their face with Caviar, throwing paying passengers out of first class to seat their friends and family, organising "upgrades" for friends and treating the place as their personal fife, is it any wonder that they don't try and grab a fragment of this largesse for themselves???????
To put it another way, deliberately cryptically, have you ever received a fax from your Boss calling for staff cuts and an austerity campaign that was sent from the effing Hotel Danieli in Venice? I have. I didn't know whether to frame it and hang it in the staff toilet or roll it up and shove it up.
To put it yet another way, "bottles of Grange as Christmas presents to senior management, thanking them for their contribution?" OMFG!
Qantas has Three problems that are interrelated.
1. It wields enormous political power through its iconic status and its ability to deliver very valuable perks to its "friends". This attracts the worst possible type of external candidate to high office in such a company - narcissists, very charming, intelligent and outwardly capable narcissists that think only of themselves and their advancement. They will always push out good people to get to the top of the heap and they are very difficult to remove once a few levels of infestation are entrenched.
2. While it may not wield it now, Qantas has dominated the market for years. The issue here is that the economic development of the Australian States is affected by their easy and frequent access to Direct International Flights because this is a critical factor in attracting and holding international business investment and internationally focussed export industries. This has made QF's international flight schedules a subject of key interest to State Governments since at least 1975.
3. The intersection of (1) and (2) has seen QF "captured" by the NSW Government, whatever its political persuasion, as an examination of the political connections of its Directors over time demonstrates. This has led to the desirable situation, from the NSW Governments point of view, of QF facilitating the portrayal of Sydney as some sort of "Gateway" to Australia and the skewing of its schedules and operations in that city's favour. This will continue.
The problem for QF then becomes simple.
At the highest level - Its Board and management thinking and behaviour is clouded by (1), which means that nobody at all is thinking of the stakeholders (Customers, Staff, Suppliers and Shareholders), only themselves.
The range of available strategic options considered for Qantas are constrained by (2) and (3), in effect shackling the company's operations and futures to Sydney - the most expensive place to base an airline in Australia.
Hence the focus on "union busting", the attempted privatisation, the rotten investment decisions, and who knows what folly next month.
...And as for marketing, forget the perks and the other crap, what people want first and foremost in an Airline is a reliable transport and a repeatable level of service - something that QF long ago ceased to provide.
To put it another way, I know of no one who will willingly fly Qantas or Jetstar if there is another available option.
I don't see much future for QF at all because it's corporate baggage is just too heavy and the important parts of its corporate memory have been destroyed leaving just fairy floss. God forbid, but a couple of hull losses would put it out of it's misery.
I have no doubt that there are overpaid pilots.
I have no doubt that there are incompetent and over paid managers as well.
But ferchrissake the cure administered by the current Board is worse than the disease.
All of QF's problems start at the very top - the Board and Senior Management.
The rest of the company takes its cues from them - it's called "modelling the behaviour". Ask Mr. Fyffe at Air New Zealand what that means.
When the staff see the Board and Senior management knocking back champagne in the Chairmans lounge while stuffing their face with Caviar, throwing paying passengers out of first class to seat their friends and family, organising "upgrades" for friends and treating the place as their personal fife, is it any wonder that they don't try and grab a fragment of this largesse for themselves???????
To put it another way, deliberately cryptically, have you ever received a fax from your Boss calling for staff cuts and an austerity campaign that was sent from the effing Hotel Danieli in Venice? I have. I didn't know whether to frame it and hang it in the staff toilet or roll it up and shove it up.
To put it yet another way, "bottles of Grange as Christmas presents to senior management, thanking them for their contribution?" OMFG!
Qantas has Three problems that are interrelated.
1. It wields enormous political power through its iconic status and its ability to deliver very valuable perks to its "friends". This attracts the worst possible type of external candidate to high office in such a company - narcissists, very charming, intelligent and outwardly capable narcissists that think only of themselves and their advancement. They will always push out good people to get to the top of the heap and they are very difficult to remove once a few levels of infestation are entrenched.
2. While it may not wield it now, Qantas has dominated the market for years. The issue here is that the economic development of the Australian States is affected by their easy and frequent access to Direct International Flights because this is a critical factor in attracting and holding international business investment and internationally focussed export industries. This has made QF's international flight schedules a subject of key interest to State Governments since at least 1975.
3. The intersection of (1) and (2) has seen QF "captured" by the NSW Government, whatever its political persuasion, as an examination of the political connections of its Directors over time demonstrates. This has led to the desirable situation, from the NSW Governments point of view, of QF facilitating the portrayal of Sydney as some sort of "Gateway" to Australia and the skewing of its schedules and operations in that city's favour. This will continue.
The problem for QF then becomes simple.
At the highest level - Its Board and management thinking and behaviour is clouded by (1), which means that nobody at all is thinking of the stakeholders (Customers, Staff, Suppliers and Shareholders), only themselves.
The range of available strategic options considered for Qantas are constrained by (2) and (3), in effect shackling the company's operations and futures to Sydney - the most expensive place to base an airline in Australia.
Hence the focus on "union busting", the attempted privatisation, the rotten investment decisions, and who knows what folly next month.
...And as for marketing, forget the perks and the other crap, what people want first and foremost in an Airline is a reliable transport and a repeatable level of service - something that QF long ago ceased to provide.
To put it another way, I know of no one who will willingly fly Qantas or Jetstar if there is another available option.
I don't see much future for QF at all because it's corporate baggage is just too heavy and the important parts of its corporate memory have been destroyed leaving just fairy floss. God forbid, but a couple of hull losses would put it out of it's misery.
Last edited by Sunfish; 7th Dec 2009 at 16:31.
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EastWest Loco,
any chance you can have a look in your system, or if you have been advised about the loss of PERTH - NARITA to JETSTAR in MAY (approx) nxt yr.
cheers
any chance you can have a look in your system, or if you have been advised about the loss of PERTH - NARITA to JETSTAR in MAY (approx) nxt yr.
cheers
QF 79 Perth-Narita unchanged 2010
Just chatting to someone who should know.
QF 79 Perth-Narita remains bookable on Tues, Fri & Sun throughout next year, operated by 767.
QF 79 Perth-Narita remains bookable on Tues, Fri & Sun throughout next year, operated by 767.
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Sunfish,
You made a reasonable point or two, but specifically:
You do now, mate.
You made a reasonable point or two, but specifically:
I know of no one who will willingly fly Qantas... if there is another available option
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And interesting little twist . . .
Qantas mouthpiece tweets all over Jetstar
The Age - December 9, 2009
Karl Quinn
Deborah Hutton's deleted Tweet.
Qantas spokeswoman Deborah Hutton appeared to forget the golden rule about not biting the hand that feeds you yesterday when she tweeted about her frustration with Jetstar - Qantas's upstart sibling.
"Jetstar nightmares: queues as long as Tigers [sic] biggest drive and then I get whacked $180 for the priviledge [sic] of taking my Callaways!''
Ms Hutton tweeted yesterday afternoon while en route to a pro-am celebrity golf tournament in Queensland.
Mindful that there was no guarantee the ******* account in Ms Hutton's name is actually the work of Ms Hutton, we called her management to ascertain the account's veracity. We never did get a call back, but when next we looked at her ******* page, the tweet in question had been removed.
Luckily, we'd already saved a copy.
Ms Hutton is a high-profile face of Qantas. She presents the inflight program Welcome Aboard and contributes to the Qantas blog Global Roaming.
While her duties include talking up Qantas they are unlikely to include talking down Jetstar.
While not a PR disaster on the same scale as Tiger Woods' philandering or Kraft's abortive iSnack 2.0 launch, Ms Hutton's apparent slip of the tweet does point to the perils of high-profile personalities taking to the new media world with gusto.
It can be fun to play with the kids, but it pays to remember your adult responsibilities while you're there.
Qantas has declined to comment.
The Age - December 9, 2009
Karl Quinn
Deborah Hutton's deleted Tweet.
Qantas spokeswoman Deborah Hutton appeared to forget the golden rule about not biting the hand that feeds you yesterday when she tweeted about her frustration with Jetstar - Qantas's upstart sibling.
"Jetstar nightmares: queues as long as Tigers [sic] biggest drive and then I get whacked $180 for the priviledge [sic] of taking my Callaways!''
Ms Hutton tweeted yesterday afternoon while en route to a pro-am celebrity golf tournament in Queensland.
Mindful that there was no guarantee the ******* account in Ms Hutton's name is actually the work of Ms Hutton, we called her management to ascertain the account's veracity. We never did get a call back, but when next we looked at her ******* page, the tweet in question had been removed.
Luckily, we'd already saved a copy.
Ms Hutton is a high-profile face of Qantas. She presents the inflight program Welcome Aboard and contributes to the Qantas blog Global Roaming.
While her duties include talking up Qantas they are unlikely to include talking down Jetstar.
While not a PR disaster on the same scale as Tiger Woods' philandering or Kraft's abortive iSnack 2.0 launch, Ms Hutton's apparent slip of the tweet does point to the perils of high-profile personalities taking to the new media world with gusto.
It can be fun to play with the kids, but it pays to remember your adult responsibilities while you're there.
Qantas has declined to comment.
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Sunfish
"I don't see much future for QF at all because it's corporate baggage is just too heavy and the important parts of its corporate memory have been destroyed leaving just fairy floss. God forbid, but a couple of hull losses would put it out of it's misery"
My MY you are evil. I can not believe for the life of me what you have written. You have psychopathic thoughts. After the latest series of air disasters you state the above in hope. I seriously hope you do not operate anything that flies.
ASIO or any law enforcement agency should have their eyes on you.
You must have seriously wanted that job at Q or JQ. To their relief you are not there.
"I don't see much future for QF at all because it's corporate baggage is just too heavy and the important parts of its corporate memory have been destroyed leaving just fairy floss. God forbid, but a couple of hull losses would put it out of it's misery"
My MY you are evil. I can not believe for the life of me what you have written. You have psychopathic thoughts. After the latest series of air disasters you state the above in hope. I seriously hope you do not operate anything that flies.
ASIO or any law enforcement agency should have their eyes on you.
You must have seriously wanted that job at Q or JQ. To their relief you are not there.
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illusion wrote: Let the Qantasisation of Jetstar begin........................
7th December 2009 23:20
To paraphrase Geoff Dixon,that would have be along the lines of ,"There will be no more than 5 Qantas aircraft planned" would it?
7th December 2009 23:20To paraphrase Geoff Dixon,that would have be along the lines of ,"There will be no more than 5 Qantas aircraft planned" would it?
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Pretty simple really.
I fly Sydney Sunshine Coast a few times a year.
QF does not fly the route, I don't fly JQ.
It's not all about lowest fare price.
I fly Sydney Sunshine Coast a few times a year.
QF does not fly the route, I don't fly JQ.
It's not all about lowest fare price.
I remember seeing a roadshow some years ago by (I think) Damian Wallace, group GM of networks & planning. He clearly stated that when Harvey Norman had a sale of Large Screen TV's there was a drop in j* sales.
The j* market is in a lot of cases a "disposable" market, competing with consumer electronics or an expensive night out. Very few premium holiday makers make a mutually exclusive choice between a WS TV and a quality holiday.
My neighbor, with cash to burn will not under any circumstance travel j*, he prefers QF, but will accept VB. He will simply not travel to a destination serviced exclusively by j* under any circumstances.
This is not to say there isn't a market for j* "disposable" travel, there is. But by attempting to force everyone onto it, a lot of the market will simply go elsewhere, even O/S, particularly with the AUD at record high's. In doing so ~75%, will not be travelling with the QantStar group.
For every low fare they gain, I wonder how may high yields they lose. Remember, its all about choice.
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Buy Qantas Get Jetstar
How many travellers have purchased a Qantas ticket and then found themselves on a JetStar aircraft?
Big mistake.
Once bitten twice pissed off.
It also creates the perception that the Jetstar product and Qantas product are the same......that they are both crap.Albeit one more expensive than the other.
Travelling to HNL is a perfect example.Compare Qantas Jetstar and Hawaiian for value.Hawaiian wins hands down.Hawaiian is a daily service.
Many Qantas staff now use Hawaiian to Honolulu simply because of the schedule and value.HA has 9 crew on a well maintained 767.The tandem service in Y/C works beautifully.All in all an excellent product
Big mistake.
Once bitten twice pissed off.
It also creates the perception that the Jetstar product and Qantas product are the same......that they are both crap.Albeit one more expensive than the other.
Travelling to HNL is a perfect example.Compare Qantas Jetstar and Hawaiian for value.Hawaiian wins hands down.Hawaiian is a daily service.
Many Qantas staff now use Hawaiian to Honolulu simply because of the schedule and value.HA has 9 crew on a well maintained 767.The tandem service in Y/C works beautifully.All in all an excellent product
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Thing is, a 1000 anecdotes about people who won't fly JQ don't make a truth. The segment needing that style of low cost no frills service DOES exist, so arguments about whether it SHOULD exist are pointless. Let's celebrate the fact that there's freedom of choice and people who don't want JQ don't have to fly them. A choice regime unavailable before deregulation came.
There is a vast market segment for discretionary spending, one of the favoured areas being air travel. Been so in Europe forever, the "bucket and spade" brigade being a giant chunk of air movements in and across Europe. And yes it does compete with a new TV, a cruise, a new kitchen, whatever.
The real issue is how major airlines address this challenge. Yes it will involve tough choices, including withdrawal by legacy carriers from some routes.Many major European airlines set up charter subsidiaries, Lufthansa's Condor comes to mind. When a younger Sherm started flying in Europe it was quite astounding to see the sheer enormity of it all. And the giant destinations like the Canary Islands, the Greek islands, Majorca etc etc were mainly not serviced by the big flag carriers but by others. I am sure Qantas has considered running a couple of CitiFlier 737's in and of the OOL daily but the truth is that's a management choice and anecdotes about folks refusing to fly JQ don't fill aeroplanes. As for HNL....that's probably right on the cusp of being half a market that might support a premium service and half a pure price based route. Hard to call.
The low cost market is big, and growing and here to stay. The real questions are not and will never again be: "Should it be done?", rather we have to live with "How we will do it?"
As I posted yesterday, quoting from whatever6719
"I really do think a successful 2 brand strategy was their intention, but, they got greedy. They saw the savings that could be made by "Jetstarising" Qantas and they have sadly gone too far with it.
Make Jetstar what it was meant to be ...low cost, cheap and cheerful carrier that does not cannibilise mainline"
There is a vast market segment for discretionary spending, one of the favoured areas being air travel. Been so in Europe forever, the "bucket and spade" brigade being a giant chunk of air movements in and across Europe. And yes it does compete with a new TV, a cruise, a new kitchen, whatever.
The real issue is how major airlines address this challenge. Yes it will involve tough choices, including withdrawal by legacy carriers from some routes.Many major European airlines set up charter subsidiaries, Lufthansa's Condor comes to mind. When a younger Sherm started flying in Europe it was quite astounding to see the sheer enormity of it all. And the giant destinations like the Canary Islands, the Greek islands, Majorca etc etc were mainly not serviced by the big flag carriers but by others. I am sure Qantas has considered running a couple of CitiFlier 737's in and of the OOL daily but the truth is that's a management choice and anecdotes about folks refusing to fly JQ don't fill aeroplanes. As for HNL....that's probably right on the cusp of being half a market that might support a premium service and half a pure price based route. Hard to call.
The low cost market is big, and growing and here to stay. The real questions are not and will never again be: "Should it be done?", rather we have to live with "How we will do it?"
As I posted yesterday, quoting from whatever6719
"I really do think a successful 2 brand strategy was their intention, but, they got greedy. They saw the savings that could be made by "Jetstarising" Qantas and they have sadly gone too far with it.
Make Jetstar what it was meant to be ...low cost, cheap and cheerful carrier that does not cannibilise mainline"
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Choice? What Choice ?
You choose to buy a Qantas ticket because you want to travel Qantas.
You find yourself on a Jetstar Kite.That ain't choice.Thats bloody deception.
Sure there is a requirement for a LCC but please lets have some honesty.
Bit like buying a Mercedes and ending up with a Volkswagen
You find yourself on a Jetstar Kite.That ain't choice.Thats bloody deception.
Sure there is a requirement for a LCC but please lets have some honesty.
Bit like buying a Mercedes and ending up with a Volkswagen
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I'm sorry, but whenever you purchase a ticket and it relates to a codeshare agreement, it details the service is not operated by the carrier your booking with, on the website and on the itinerary. If an agent fails to detail this - its not the airlines fault.
When you're booking on Qantas.com and the flight you choose is a JQ one, it takes you straight to JQ's booking engine to complete the transaction. If that does not make you enough aware the service is operated by Jetstar, then you can't be saved - I don't know how it is deception. The information is there at time of booking.
Codeshare agreements have been around for years and are not uncommon.
If you book a codeshare international flight (excluding TT and NAN) with Jetstar, you'll get the same "trimmings" i.e. meals, blanket pack etc.
Domestically, well, once again I come back to the argument around codeshare flights.
The information provided to the customer is detailed enough from what I've seen...
When you're booking on Qantas.com and the flight you choose is a JQ one, it takes you straight to JQ's booking engine to complete the transaction. If that does not make you enough aware the service is operated by Jetstar, then you can't be saved - I don't know how it is deception. The information is there at time of booking.
Codeshare agreements have been around for years and are not uncommon.
If you book a codeshare international flight (excluding TT and NAN) with Jetstar, you'll get the same "trimmings" i.e. meals, blanket pack etc.
Domestically, well, once again I come back to the argument around codeshare flights.
The information provided to the customer is detailed enough from what I've seen...
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Industry Wise-T-Vasis
Most of us here work in the industry and are aware of the fine print.Others find out the hard way.They are reluctant to repeat the experience.Deception with these LCCs is rampant-Caveat Emptor,Caveat Lector
Repeat business must surely be low
Repeat business must surely be low
Last edited by DEFCON4; 7th May 2011 at 06:55.
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Busdriver007,
This humble Sherm went to university a long time back and such computer skills as Sherm possesses started with punched card Fortran. Things like the internet have come much later in Sherm's sheltered life than for some.
However..... I just tried to book on the Qantas website a flight from SYD-MCY and as soon as I pressed GO on the Qantas web page the following came up:
"Flights between Sydney and Sunshine Coast are operated by Jetstar or one of Jetstar's partner airlines. To book these flights you will need to go to Jetstar.com.
Continue to Jetstar"
I then tried booking a MEL-OOL flight and the second page that came up after pressing GO on the Qantas page was indeed a Qantas page, but clearly marked flight numbers for each flight, with the Jetstar logo and a note say "This flight operated by Jetstar". As soon as you select the flight and proceed to payment the following notice appears:
"The trip you have selected is operated by Jetstar. To book these flights you will be directed to the Jetstar website. Continue with selection? Yes click OK, No click cancel and amend your selection".
Now if you get a bit cunning and try to trick the system you could pick the MEL-OOL via SYD option on the QF website and you can book that all on a QF page. Yet even there is a note clearly saying *= Flight Operated by Jetstar
Now, a quiet beer on the balcony and Sherm really decides to beat the system. Book MEL-LST on QantasLink (who would pay $502 for that!), and fly back the next day with JQ for half the price. Again you stay on the QF page for the whole booking but again, the pesky note is there *= Flight Operated by Jetstar. Repeat the exercise for a JQ flight MEL-SYD then return on QF. Again you stay on the QF page but the note is there: *= Flight Operated by Jetstar
As a final test Sherm reached once more for the keyboard and tried to book a Qantas flight through the JQ website but it doesn't look like it can be done. So there's no risk that you thought you'd be flying on a shiny new A320 with happy cabin crew and actually end up on a clapped out 767. That would wreck your day.
Your humble Sherm has done his best, aware that this is not an exhaustive test and not rigorous enough to count as a valid comparison. But it does seem from these few snapshots that unless you were using a braille keyboard and typing by ear, you really would be hard pressed to end up on a star-tailed A320 without expecting it.
But, as Mrs Sherm (Happy Mothers Day tomorrow!) and the Shermettes regularly point out, I am often wrong. However, while I don't think I'm that smart I can figure out that I might in fact be travelling on JQ. Or am I getting it all wrong? Most really good conspiracies baffle me I do admit.
This humble Sherm went to university a long time back and such computer skills as Sherm possesses started with punched card Fortran. Things like the internet have come much later in Sherm's sheltered life than for some.
However..... I just tried to book on the Qantas website a flight from SYD-MCY and as soon as I pressed GO on the Qantas web page the following came up:
"Flights between Sydney and Sunshine Coast are operated by Jetstar or one of Jetstar's partner airlines. To book these flights you will need to go to Jetstar.com.
Continue to Jetstar"
I then tried booking a MEL-OOL flight and the second page that came up after pressing GO on the Qantas page was indeed a Qantas page, but clearly marked flight numbers for each flight, with the Jetstar logo and a note say "This flight operated by Jetstar". As soon as you select the flight and proceed to payment the following notice appears:
"The trip you have selected is operated by Jetstar. To book these flights you will be directed to the Jetstar website. Continue with selection? Yes click OK, No click cancel and amend your selection".
Now if you get a bit cunning and try to trick the system you could pick the MEL-OOL via SYD option on the QF website and you can book that all on a QF page. Yet even there is a note clearly saying *= Flight Operated by Jetstar
Now, a quiet beer on the balcony and Sherm really decides to beat the system. Book MEL-LST on QantasLink (who would pay $502 for that!), and fly back the next day with JQ for half the price. Again you stay on the QF page for the whole booking but again, the pesky note is there *= Flight Operated by Jetstar. Repeat the exercise for a JQ flight MEL-SYD then return on QF. Again you stay on the QF page but the note is there: *= Flight Operated by Jetstar
As a final test Sherm reached once more for the keyboard and tried to book a Qantas flight through the JQ website but it doesn't look like it can be done. So there's no risk that you thought you'd be flying on a shiny new A320 with happy cabin crew and actually end up on a clapped out 767. That would wreck your day.
Your humble Sherm has done his best, aware that this is not an exhaustive test and not rigorous enough to count as a valid comparison. But it does seem from these few snapshots that unless you were using a braille keyboard and typing by ear, you really would be hard pressed to end up on a star-tailed A320 without expecting it.
But, as Mrs Sherm (Happy Mothers Day tomorrow!) and the Shermettes regularly point out, I am often wrong. However, while I don't think I'm that smart I can figure out that I might in fact be travelling on JQ. Or am I getting it all wrong? Most really good conspiracies baffle me I do admit.
Last edited by Captain Sherm; 7th May 2011 at 10:22.
So there's no risk that you thought you'd be flying on a shiny new A320 with happy cabin crew and actually end up on a clapped out 767.
My last jetstar flight the cabin manager scolded the entire cabin on the PA for the disorderly disembarkation, the cabin service was started and finished within 2 minutes and the crew hid from sight for the remainder. Oh and all of the flights were over 2 hours late. Cheap or cheerful, probably not both, unless the crew haven't received their first payslip yet.
But yes it is disappointing that even though the 767s and 747s look clapped out, they dont need to. Other airlines made the investment. Qantas management have focused their whole attention on the jetstar product which is fine, but it might well bite them in the arse once virgin start taking their premium passengers. C
The contempt that they show their business class travellers in 737-400s(nice J(Y?) class seats)
All passengers in the 767s(nice IFE?? if you can even see the screens or make out what the projector is projecting)
2-3-2 J class config in the A330s
and the dated 1980s 747-400 interiors and a first generation inseat IFE .
Not a good fleet presentation if youre claiming to be premium.