Delays at Sydney airport
Wang, the stumbling block to any solution is sourcing more controllers - there is no instant solution no matter who runs ATC. Certainly focusing on core "business" instead of playing silly management games would be a good start.
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Le P, before you source more controllers, there has to be the will to do so. Do you see ANY EVIDENCE whatsoever, that AsA is interested in increasing staff numbers? From the outside, it looks suspiciously like an organisation desperately hoping that technological advances will do away with the need for staff.
Their spin doctors tell the media, right up til today (see article mentioned in this thread) that there is no staff shortage. AsA management tell their bosses (senate estimates etc.) that, alternately, there is no staff shortage and that delays are an industrial campaign/there is a staff shortage but it will be fixed by last August/that there is an 'over-reliance on overtime'!
Now, either their political masters are in on the game and couldn't care less how they spin it, or should be sacking the lying pieces of $hit.
As for Virgin taking legal action- I have been saying for ages that AsA has been cost-shifting onto the airlines for a good while with this under-staffing BS, and now they are finally waking up.
Their spin doctors tell the media, right up til today (see article mentioned in this thread) that there is no staff shortage. AsA management tell their bosses (senate estimates etc.) that, alternately, there is no staff shortage and that delays are an industrial campaign/there is a staff shortage but it will be fixed by last August/that there is an 'over-reliance on overtime'!
Now, either their political masters are in on the game and couldn't care less how they spin it, or should be sacking the lying pieces of $hit.
As for Virgin taking legal action- I have been saying for ages that AsA has been cost-shifting onto the airlines for a good while with this under-staffing BS, and now they are finally waking up.
The interesting thing is that staffing in the Tower is pretty good and APP/DEP is short, yet the Tower has had (or will have) 6 trainees this year, whilst only 2 or 3 have gone to APP/DEP.
Go figure - I am sure it makes sense to someone.
Go figure - I am sure it makes sense to someone.
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"The interesting thing is that staffing in the Tower is pretty good and APP/DEP is short, yet the Tower has had (or will have) 6 trainees this year, whilst only 2 or 3 have gone to APP/DEP.
Go figure - I am sure it makes sense to someone."
Keepemseparated - is it an aptitude thing? Not saying that APP is harder than TWR or vice versa. Having been multi-rated in the RAAF I believe some people are better suited to the TWR environment, and others to APP. Some are good at both and some of course, well, I try not to fly on those days...
Or is it giving ASA too much credit to think that they would assign people to the environment for which they are most suited ... given that they are quite happy to take RAAFies with 10+years of TMA experience (radar environment), put 'em through an enroute short course and then stick them on procedural enroute sectors.
Go figure - I am sure it makes sense to someone."
Keepemseparated - is it an aptitude thing? Not saying that APP is harder than TWR or vice versa. Having been multi-rated in the RAAF I believe some people are better suited to the TWR environment, and others to APP. Some are good at both and some of course, well, I try not to fly on those days...
Or is it giving ASA too much credit to think that they would assign people to the environment for which they are most suited ... given that they are quite happy to take RAAFies with 10+years of TMA experience (radar environment), put 'em through an enroute short course and then stick them on procedural enroute sectors.
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Vote 1 - HOODY !
HOODY won`t come back !
Too clever.He has carved out a niche now, fixing poorly run Aviation entities , doing the bolt and then fixing another then another !! And good on him, at least one individual actually has some managerial skill !
Like its been stated previously, the frontline personel who experience the deficiencies are ignored completely until everything turns to crap. Then the Spin Doctors arrive, juggle the figures and paint a rosey little picture for the Minister and the Media, then months later all the deceptions unravel and it turns to crap once again...
As M.Latham would once have said - 'They are a conga line of suckholes' !
Too clever.He has carved out a niche now, fixing poorly run Aviation entities , doing the bolt and then fixing another then another !! And good on him, at least one individual actually has some managerial skill !
Like its been stated previously, the frontline personel who experience the deficiencies are ignored completely until everything turns to crap. Then the Spin Doctors arrive, juggle the figures and paint a rosey little picture for the Minister and the Media, then months later all the deceptions unravel and it turns to crap once again...
As M.Latham would once have said - 'They are a conga line of suckholes' !
Length of training required would be a large consideration - it probably takes twice as long to train on TMA than TWR. You simply can't have the same throughput.
Plus when numbers are tight it's difficult to release someone to update & run sim courses.
Plus when numbers are tight it's difficult to release someone to update & run sim courses.
I don't know Ferris. It's very hard to tell from the coal face through all the obscuring spin. We're getting a number of ab initios coming through but that's barely keeping up with losses. We're still running on overtime.
You're right - management hope is pinned on assorted measures such as light traffic endorsements. And as you well know such things don't just fall from the sky, miraculously endorsing our licences. Management is more concerned with insisting we all do the "Leaders leading" presentation than providing any training.
You're right - management hope is pinned on assorted measures such as light traffic endorsements. And as you well know such things don't just fall from the sky, miraculously endorsing our licences. Management is more concerned with insisting we all do the "Leaders leading" presentation than providing any training.
RAAFASA, a couple of the guys are newbies and streamed for radar towers, so they could only go the tower, but the others are either experienced locals (BK) or imports (not sure of the backgrounds, but they could have been trained for either).
I think at the end of the day its about bums on seats, and to train someone in the tower you only lose a rated controller off the roster for a week or so (classroom days/visit to visual Sim in ML), whilst the app/dep training involves a much longer run in the Sim, these lessons work best with 2 trainees, therefore two app or dep controllers off the roster at the same time, which they cannot afford. Short sighted - yep.
It will get worse before it gets better, as a few of the Traffic Managers are leaving by years end and that means getting guys off of the tools to train on the SYTM role - without them the whole show stops - no app or dep!!
I think at the end of the day its about bums on seats, and to train someone in the tower you only lose a rated controller off the roster for a week or so (classroom days/visit to visual Sim in ML), whilst the app/dep training involves a much longer run in the Sim, these lessons work best with 2 trainees, therefore two app or dep controllers off the roster at the same time, which they cannot afford. Short sighted - yep.
It will get worse before it gets better, as a few of the Traffic Managers are leaving by years end and that means getting guys off of the tools to train on the SYTM role - without them the whole show stops - no app or dep!!
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SY controllers have just had rec leave cancelled for the next three months 'to protect service continuity'.
They must be fully staffed.
Wonder how they will be feeling about giving up their days off to cover the holes in the roster now?
When you know there is a 'holiday light at the end of the tunnel' you can push through. When even that is taken away to cover up years of a lack of workforce planning it gets very hard.
When will ASA management admit they have made a right royal stuff up of the last few years, and try and get the controllers onside rather than trot out spin doctors to imply that staffing is fine and it is the fault of a couple of controllers? I'm not holding my breath.
These are the games 'Corporate Relations' and ASA mangement play in the media. Controllers are too busy trying to move planes against a backdrop of artificial landing caps and a lack of staff.
They must be fully staffed.
Wonder how they will be feeling about giving up their days off to cover the holes in the roster now?
When you know there is a 'holiday light at the end of the tunnel' you can push through. When even that is taken away to cover up years of a lack of workforce planning it gets very hard.
When will ASA management admit they have made a right royal stuff up of the last few years, and try and get the controllers onside rather than trot out spin doctors to imply that staffing is fine and it is the fault of a couple of controllers? I'm not holding my breath.
These are the games 'Corporate Relations' and ASA mangement play in the media. Controllers are too busy trying to move planes against a backdrop of artificial landing caps and a lack of staff.
Last edited by max1; 16th Sep 2009 at 11:52.
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Maybe they need to go on strike to prove their point(s)! It is pretty much a standard practice nowadays to get management to "do something" that they were suppose to do.
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I can't decide if its petty revenge for making the manager concerned look bad, or trying to send a message to controllers in general; "do the overtime and keep things working or loose your rec leave".
This, in the same week we find out the agreed pay rise will be delayed a month, and we all have to attend a briefing on A$A's leadership program
NB
This, in the same week we find out the agreed pay rise will be delayed a month, and we all have to attend a briefing on A$A's leadership program
NB
No leave for SY APP from Sept 19 to Dec 18. I see trouble brewing.
How do they expect to attract people to Sydney if the leave you had to apply for 14 months can be canned with 3 days notice - that is sh!t.
How do they expect to attract people to Sydney if the leave you had to apply for 14 months can be canned with 3 days notice - that is sh!t.
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Staffing crisis? What staffing crisis?
Cancel recreation leave and while we`re at it cancel days off. Get some cheap demountables in the carpark so nobody need to go home. Lets face it they waste so much time travelling to and from work when they could be sleeping between shifts in the carpark.
What staffing crisis?
Next weeks agenda....toilet breaks, meal breaks, less than 4 hours at the console, leg irons.....
Cancel recreation leave and while we`re at it cancel days off. Get some cheap demountables in the carpark so nobody need to go home. Lets face it they waste so much time travelling to and from work when they could be sleeping between shifts in the carpark.
What staffing crisis?
Next weeks agenda....toilet breaks, meal breaks, less than 4 hours at the console, leg irons.....
Pera, for most of the guys and girls it is not about the money. It's about having to put up with the same BS all of the time and ASA having no respect for the staff.
Being blamed for airspace closures because you wanted to enjoy your day off - what a day off.
There are plenty of people who have worked more than 20 extra shifts in the last 12 months, and as a reward they don't get any leave.
Well done, what a disgrace.
Being blamed for airspace closures because you wanted to enjoy your day off - what a day off.
There are plenty of people who have worked more than 20 extra shifts in the last 12 months, and as a reward they don't get any leave.
Well done, what a disgrace.
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And what are they going to do at the end of the 3 months when things are no different?
And they wonder why people don't want to work for them. (note the person on another pprune forum with minimal experience seeking advice whether after 4 yrs with AsA, they have enough experience to be hired overseas?)
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delays at sydney - staff availability
from the AsA career in ATC webpage:
Airservices Australia - Careers - Air Traffic Controller
note the last point:
How Demanding is the Job of Air Traffic Control?
The nature of the job demands that Air Traffic Controllers be able to make quick and accurate decisions based on information regarding an aircraft's position. To this end, you must:
be confident and able to work with modern computer-based equipment;
be self-motivated and independent, yet work within a team environment;
be dedicated, professional, conscientious, confident and able to accept highlevels of personal responsibility;
possess a good understanding and a clear application of the English language; and
be prepared to work shifts on any day of the year.
says nothing about recreation leave, family life, work/life balance.....
Airservices Australia - Careers - Air Traffic Controller
note the last point:
How Demanding is the Job of Air Traffic Control?
The nature of the job demands that Air Traffic Controllers be able to make quick and accurate decisions based on information regarding an aircraft's position. To this end, you must:
be confident and able to work with modern computer-based equipment;
be self-motivated and independent, yet work within a team environment;
be dedicated, professional, conscientious, confident and able to accept highlevels of personal responsibility;
possess a good understanding and a clear application of the English language; and
be prepared to work shifts on any day of the year.
says nothing about recreation leave, family life, work/life balance.....