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V Australia to fly to South Africa, Thailand

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V Australia to fly to South Africa, Thailand

Old 17th Aug 2009, 12:46
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V Australia to fly to South Africa, Thailand

V Australia launches fares to Thailand and South Africa | Cheap flights

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Hi all,

I've been a long time lurker, but this is the first time I have posted. How can V Australia fly from Australia to SA in 777's without violating ETOPS? As far as I know, South African flies A340's on its Joberg-Perth route. I know SIA fly from Singapore - Joberg with twinjets, however that is because they use Diego Garcia as an emergency landing site. Could V be flying Aust - Thailand - Joberg?

Can anyone shed any light on this?
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Old 17th Aug 2009, 20:55
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well Air Mauritus flys 767's into SYD and out of MEL direct and also PER services.

Air Austral does SYD Renunion Island. on a 777

So maybe ETOPS is possible on a 777
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Old 17th Aug 2009, 21:46
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Not called ETOPS now but EDTO and they will get 240min approved to do it.
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Old 17th Aug 2009, 22:05
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To fly SYD-JNB, Virgin will have to fly via / over Perth, then to Mauritius until they get within Etops range of FIMP before they can turn South to JNB. Whether they can make it one sector SYD-JNB that route, I'm not sure.

Even though it is a lot longer than the direct track, if they go via Perth, they could also tap into the South African / Rhodesian population living there, and anyway, the lower operating costs of the 777 will go a long way to offset the extra route distance.

N
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Old 17th Aug 2009, 23:34
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Whether they can make it one sector SYD-JNB that route, I'm not sure.
noip,

I know it's not that much shorter but the announcement was ...

Melbourne to Johannesburg, South Africa direct flights from 13 March 2010
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Old 17th Aug 2009, 23:37
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Foof for thought

Even with 180 min EDTO they could be(as a conservative guess on OEI speed)1200-1400nm away from ( via) PER to operate to JNB.

Quite happy to be corrected though.

Last edited by aulglarse; 17th Aug 2009 at 23:53.
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Old 18th Aug 2009, 00:04
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FWIW as a bit of a look-see.

This was the best I could do for Mel-Jnb on greatcirclemapper

It puts the distance at 6300 nm .... allowing for going South of FIMP, it will still be about 6200 nm. Whilst the 777 does LAX-MEL at about 6900 nm, the MEL-JNB track via Per is entirely in strong headwinds, and allowing for some weather holding at JNB, it will be do-able, but at times, tight.

Direct Syd-Jnb is about 6000 nm - but with the flexibility of avoiding some of the Jetstream activity - the great circle track not an option for the 777.

For Completeness ... Mel-Jnb direct track 5600nm.

So it will be at least an hour longer (maybe two) on the 777 to go Mel-Jnb than for the 747 to go Syd-Jnb. But the 777 gets to stay closer to civilisation and miss a few hours over the ice-pack.

N
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Old 18th Aug 2009, 00:06
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With 240 mins, you will still have to deviate north of the Great Circle Route


Oops, beaten to the punch!
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Old 18th Aug 2009, 00:13
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I believe the announcement said "direct flights" as in non stop.

I do not recall any announcement of Great Circle flights. So how do you conclude that it would be in breach of ETOPS/EDTO rules.

Maui
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Old 18th Aug 2009, 00:32
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MEL-JNB with 240 EDTO is around 5804NM, which is what VA will do. Flights are not via Perth. EDTO approval is in the works now.
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Old 18th Aug 2009, 00:43
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What a great opportunity lost to tap into the expat crowd in Perth. Many people I know would gladly jettison SAA trying to get to JHB. Expensive, poor service. The list can go on and on.....
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Old 18th Aug 2009, 01:05
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maui,

Navigation / Etops 101 .....

Great Circle route is the most direct track between any two points on the planet. In this case, this route Mel-Jnb is not an approved Etops route - it carries a twin too far from an adequate airport (they have to remain within 120 / 180 / 207 / 240 minutes at single engine speed in still air from those airports).

So, the 747 can fly the great circle route in this case, but the 777 cannot - it must fly a longer route to keep closer to an adequate airport (in this case Adelaide / Perth / Mauritius / Durban). Of course an important point here is what Etops approval V will have for their aircraft. 180 min is pretty standard these days, but 207 or 240 min are new for Australia, and ANY Etops approval requires a lot of work on the part of the Airline.

So, the point is, how much longer is the route the 777 will have to fly to get to Jnb, and what impact will it have on its operation? Both the 747 and 777 fly direct, it is just that the 777 cannot avail itself of the shortest route.

I trust that clears up your mis-understanding ...

N
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Old 18th Aug 2009, 04:14
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Great circle may be the SHORTEST route, but it is not necessarily the QUICKEST route, due to wind.
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Old 18th Aug 2009, 04:29
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Noip

Thankyou for that educational piece.

Navigation EDTO 102. Direct does not necessarily mean by the shortest route, it means non stop. RTFA!

Maui
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Old 18th Aug 2009, 04:52
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maui,

You obviously do not share my curiosity as to the routing the 777 will fly mel-jnb and the other things that will impact its operation.

In this case, the great circle track IS the quickest both in track distance and with prevailing wind, by a considerable margin. And that was the point of my post. Whilst the 777 can make it Mel-Jnb non-stop, the track it will be forced to fly will suffer both wind and distance penalties that will no doubt impact on available payload.

As a couple of people have pointed out, a transit Perth to take advantage of the market there seems pretty obvious, however as usual, marketing people know best.

It would also be interesting to see how or if BRW is limited out of Jnb on the return.

Hope you feel better soon .........

N
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Old 18th Aug 2009, 05:23
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Noip

Go back to the original post. The question was

How can V Australia fly from Australia to SA in 777's without violating ETOPS?
Whereupon you proceeded to impress everyone with your grasp of EDTO operations and Great Circle tracking.

I merely pointed out that there was nothing in the report that suggested great circle, and intimated that EDTO was a possibility if one stayed away from the great circle. I am sorry if that point was lost on you.

I am really impressed with your grasp of the EDTO concept, pity you are not that flash at understanding written communications.

Maui
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Old 18th Aug 2009, 05:41
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Actually Maui, Direct in most airlines marketing departments means you don't change aircraft - but you may tech stop.

We pilots think of direct meaning non stop but thats not what the kings of spin think!
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Old 18th Aug 2009, 05:59
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So when I press "Direct To" I can stop provided I don't get off.
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Old 18th Aug 2009, 06:55
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m

whatever.


n
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Old 18th Aug 2009, 07:34
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Direct flights mean you board a/c at the departure airport and get off at the destination with no stops (whether you get off or not) in between. Marketing departments have nothing to do what track the a/c takes, great circle or whatever. No press release would ever differentiate what track the a/c takes.

Maui, you probably didn't mean but the way you worded your post showed a complete misunderstanding of direct/great circle tracks. As would be expected in a novice pilots response. Hence noips explanation re great circle, only trying to help. Talk about a misunderstanding.

Not sure if it has been approved or if CASA would approve it but Boeing was trying to certify the 777-300ER to 330 min etops, this would allow great circle track SYD or MEL to Joburg. Also 4 engine etops comes into effect in 2015, not sure what effect that will have on 4 eng ops.

Last edited by MrWooby; 18th Aug 2009 at 08:18.
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