Merged: AFAP and the Mutual Benefit Fund
Thread Starter
Gentlemen,
I started this thread to support the MBF trustees during the trusteeship issue. As I have stated, I am a close friend of Harry, and since the very beginning of this saga, nothing I have seen or heard from him has swayed my opinion that he and his trustees (ALL of them, as shown on that email which was mentioned a few posts back) are doing the right thing, as will come out in the wash.
To even suggest that they have some hidden agenda or are setting up the MBF to be sold or taken-over is disgusting. It is pretty obvious that some of you have never met the man, and if you knew what he has had to put up with from "the other side" over this last twelve months, you would cut him some slack. Harry has lost more integrity than some of you will ever have. I fully support him and what he and his trustees are doing with the MBF, and you will all thank them one day.
Perhaps the trustees' communication skills leave a bit to be desired but one thing is certain, if any of you expect to get answers on the Internet, especially in a place like Prune with it's current inhabitants, I think you are mistaken.
To the moderates out there, I suggest you support the trustees.
I started this thread to support the MBF trustees during the trusteeship issue. As I have stated, I am a close friend of Harry, and since the very beginning of this saga, nothing I have seen or heard from him has swayed my opinion that he and his trustees (ALL of them, as shown on that email which was mentioned a few posts back) are doing the right thing, as will come out in the wash.
To even suggest that they have some hidden agenda or are setting up the MBF to be sold or taken-over is disgusting. It is pretty obvious that some of you have never met the man, and if you knew what he has had to put up with from "the other side" over this last twelve months, you would cut him some slack. Harry has lost more integrity than some of you will ever have. I fully support him and what he and his trustees are doing with the MBF, and you will all thank them one day.
Perhaps the trustees' communication skills leave a bit to be desired but one thing is certain, if any of you expect to get answers on the Internet, especially in a place like Prune with it's current inhabitants, I think you are mistaken.
To the moderates out there, I suggest you support the trustees.
Bloggs, as you are a close friend of H.O, maybe you should be suggesting to him that answering queries of the members would be a VERY good idea. Most Australians don't respond well to being treated as if we are underlings in a dictatorship, and we should just 'do what we are told, without explanation.' As far as using Pprune- well it is a forum that is easily accessible to all (especially overseas members like myself), and I personally can't see this as being a Commercial in Confidence issue. If this is not the case, then the dissemination of the information asked for-yet denied, could be via the AFAP website, requiring Member Log-in. This would negate any perceived security issues. As a member I, like many others, cannot understand the COMPLETE LACK OF RESPONSE from the MBF, and until I receive a satisfactory response, the vote is NO!!
Whispering "T" Jet
..........if any of you expect to get answers on the Internet, especially in a place like Prune with it's current inhabitants, I think you are mistaken.
Based on the following:
Pprune- well it is a forum that is easily accessible to all (especially overseas members like myself), and I personally can't see this as being a Commercial in Confidence issue.
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Let me get this straight.
People ask questions to no one in particular, on a public forum, about stuff that is very important to them (so important that this is the place they choose to ask questions) and they expect a response from directors/trustees/guardians of an insurance fund.
I know Harry will not get on here to respond. I would be disappointed if he did. This is not the place.
Vote no by all means. However, if you want to get some information from the source it will not happen here.
If you had a grievance with your employer and posted here would you expect them to respond here?
If you have an issue with the way things are done and you are not getting an appropriate response from the appropriate place then there are legitimate ways to get a resolution.
People ask questions to no one in particular, on a public forum, about stuff that is very important to them (so important that this is the place they choose to ask questions) and they expect a response from directors/trustees/guardians of an insurance fund.
I know Harry will not get on here to respond. I would be disappointed if he did. This is not the place.
Vote no by all means. However, if you want to get some information from the source it will not happen here.
If you had a grievance with your employer and posted here would you expect them to respond here?
If you have an issue with the way things are done and you are not getting an appropriate response from the appropriate place then there are legitimate ways to get a resolution.
Last edited by aussiefan; 1st May 2010 at 12:18. Reason: More information
Aussiefan-please go back earlier in the forum, then you will see that I have stated that I have asked these questions by private email to the MBF, and received a completely unsatisfactory response. 
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However, if you want to get some information from the source it will not happen here.
This is not the place.
Perhaps the trustees' communication skills leave a bit to be desired
COMPLETE LACK OF RESPONSE from the MBF
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The most concerning point is that not all the trustees are in agreement....WHY?
Alarm bells should be ringing loudly right about now!
The same trustees who disagree with this current issue were conveniently left out of the initial vote to have the AFAP removed as trustee....Why? Surely such a major action would at least require the entire trustee compliment to be involved in the discussion and have their say. One of the trustees in attendance abstained from the vote...again why?
In the past the Chairman has e-mail information out to the trustees who were not in attendance and then followed up with them later to find out their opinion before any decision was made. That is why they all have Telstra phone cards. This was always the case on issues of far less significance than this one.
Until this mess can be sorted out and the trustees can all be in agreement I will be voting NO.
Far too many unanswered questions. As trustees they are our elected members placed in office to represent us the members. If we ask a question it is their responsibility and duty to answer it, so why have we not received any answers?
Alarm bells should be ringing loudly right about now!
The same trustees who disagree with this current issue were conveniently left out of the initial vote to have the AFAP removed as trustee....Why? Surely such a major action would at least require the entire trustee compliment to be involved in the discussion and have their say. One of the trustees in attendance abstained from the vote...again why?
In the past the Chairman has e-mail information out to the trustees who were not in attendance and then followed up with them later to find out their opinion before any decision was made. That is why they all have Telstra phone cards. This was always the case on issues of far less significance than this one.
Until this mess can be sorted out and the trustees can all be in agreement I will be voting NO.
Far too many unanswered questions. As trustees they are our elected members placed in office to represent us the members. If we ask a question it is their responsibility and duty to answer it, so why have we not received any answers?
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Clear to land. You say you asked the question to the fund and did not get a response. Fair enough. Try again. If you are truly concerned that the fund is being sold off or fun into the ground or whatever go to the ombudsman.
fmcinop, same deal, if alarm bells are ringing then do something.
I am not a member of MBF, I do know some of the participants on this thread and some of them for over 30 years. Personally I would say that the MBF is doing the right thing and is getting advice from professionals. If I was concerned that my insurance fund was selling me out or doing wrong by me I would not be on a public forum expecting to get if sorted.
Ombudsman, lawyers, politicians, afap...
Got to wonder about other people who are asking questions on here, I see a point scoring exercise going on. Lots of big accusations which even if half true then surely more should be done than bring them up here??? Motive??
fmcinop, same deal, if alarm bells are ringing then do something.
I am not a member of MBF, I do know some of the participants on this thread and some of them for over 30 years. Personally I would say that the MBF is doing the right thing and is getting advice from professionals. If I was concerned that my insurance fund was selling me out or doing wrong by me I would not be on a public forum expecting to get if sorted.
Ombudsman, lawyers, politicians, afap...
Got to wonder about other people who are asking questions on here, I see a point scoring exercise going on. Lots of big accusations which even if half true then surely more should be done than bring them up here??? Motive??
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Aussiefan.
You make the assumption that what you see here is all that is going on. It is not, but I have been cautioned by the lawyers to the fund about what I say. You will note that my posts have been sustainable analyses of what has been disseminated, and a few snippets of OPINION.
For your info the following is a cut and paste from an email to me from the Fund Manager. Note the date. That same structure applies today.
You also mis-interpret the rationale for the discourse on this far from ideal forum. The intent is not to have answers from the trustees in this arena, but to inform the membership at large, those areas that they should be concerned about, and should be asking questions about. Fortunately a significant number of our brothers are smart enough to understand that. When the office of the AAPMBF refuses to facilitate any contrary discussion on matters of importance, this is this most efficient alternative. Believe me I would rather it not be that way. However the reluctance of the incumbents to listen or to discuss leaves no choice.
Paul Makin
You make the assumption that what you see here is all that is going on. It is not, but I have been cautioned by the lawyers to the fund about what I say. You will note that my posts have been sustainable analyses of what has been disseminated, and a few snippets of OPINION.
For your info the following is a cut and paste from an email to me from the Fund Manager. Note the date. That same structure applies today.
Dear Paul
Thank you for your patience with respect to your query of 16 July 2007.
After further discussions with our legal advisors on these matters the following is confirmed:
The Fund as currently structured is not subject to external regulatory or statutory oversight.
Thank you for your patience with respect to your query of 16 July 2007.
After further discussions with our legal advisors on these matters the following is confirmed:
The Fund as currently structured is not subject to external regulatory or statutory oversight.
Paul Makin
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Financial Ombudsman Service :: List of Financial Ombudsman Service members Do a search for Australian Air Pilots Mutual Benefit Fund
Seems these guys are the ones to go to if you have an issue that is not being resolved. About 10 minutes of googling...
Seems these guys are the ones to go to if you have an issue that is not being resolved. About 10 minutes of googling...
Last edited by aussiefan; 3rd May 2010 at 12:19. Reason: Link only brings up search page
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I would actually say less, put in Insurance Ombudsman in Australian google, click on the first link, seach their members and there you are.
Let us know how you go with them. I am interested in their response.
Let us know how you go with them. I am interested in their response.
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Aussiefan
1) The listed party is Austair, not AAPMBF. They are seperate legal entities.
2) Representations to the Ombudsmen relate to services, not administration.
3) Members of AAPMBF are not members of Austair and currently Austair do not provide any services to AAPMBF members that fall within the jurisdiction of the Financial Sevices Ombudsman.
There are other, more relevant bodies.
As I said. Note the date of the cut and paste, there is a whole lot more to this and it has no just sprung up in the past few months. Give us a little credit.
Besides that, if you are not a member it is none of your business.
Paul Makin
1) The listed party is Austair, not AAPMBF. They are seperate legal entities.
2) Representations to the Ombudsmen relate to services, not administration.
3) Members of AAPMBF are not members of Austair and currently Austair do not provide any services to AAPMBF members that fall within the jurisdiction of the Financial Sevices Ombudsman.
There are other, more relevant bodies.
As I said. Note the date of the cut and paste, there is a whole lot more to this and it has no just sprung up in the past few months. Give us a little credit.
Besides that, if you are not a member it is none of your business.
Paul Makin
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And there I was thinking this was a public forum?
I meant to call the place I found today but I am on night shifts. I do notice the same contact name as on the AFAP site? But then you must be right that they are not same.
Maybe you could add to your list of problems with the MBF that there is now another company using the same trading name.
"There are other, more relevant bodies."
I am sure there are, there seem to be a lot of people who have issues, maybe you could let them know who they can turn to for help?
I meant to call the place I found today but I am on night shifts. I do notice the same contact name as on the AFAP site? But then you must be right that they are not same.
Maybe you could add to your list of problems with the MBF that there is now another company using the same trading name.
"There are other, more relevant bodies."
I am sure there are, there seem to be a lot of people who have issues, maybe you could let them know who they can turn to for help?
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Clearly there is an agenda here.
It seems apparent that the Trustees that are no longer working in the aviation industry have a different agenda to those that are.
I believe it is not appropriate for retired members, who have no material interest in the fund, to be allowed to have anything to do with it's running in an official capacity.
MBF members who are loyal members of the AFAP should be very concerned that the assets of the fund, created by AFAP members, have the potential to be taken out of their control and put out there for all and sundry.
Clearly the next step is to open up membership to non AFAP members on a commercial basis. While this may suit those who wish to enjoy the benefits of our fund it surely is not in the best interests of those of us who believe in the organisation that had the foresight to both start the fund and then protect the fund in the late 80s.
We should all be rejecting the proposed rule change and demanding the resignation of any trustee who has retired from aviation.
It seems apparent that the Trustees that are no longer working in the aviation industry have a different agenda to those that are.
I believe it is not appropriate for retired members, who have no material interest in the fund, to be allowed to have anything to do with it's running in an official capacity.
MBF members who are loyal members of the AFAP should be very concerned that the assets of the fund, created by AFAP members, have the potential to be taken out of their control and put out there for all and sundry.
Clearly the next step is to open up membership to non AFAP members on a commercial basis. While this may suit those who wish to enjoy the benefits of our fund it surely is not in the best interests of those of us who believe in the organisation that had the foresight to both start the fund and then protect the fund in the late 80s.
We should all be rejecting the proposed rule change and demanding the resignation of any trustee who has retired from aviation.