Reduced layovers at V Australia
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yes of course. Not only will I have a vested interest in the companies profit by when times boom again I may make more than the salary I lost. The only caveat is that the risk should be shared by management.
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The onus by way of law is for the company to implement a FMS, putting the onus on them
Ga trojan
In the grand scheme of things, yes the onus is on everyone when it comes to fatigue management. The company has to implement a FMS, CASA says they have to. The company then rosters within the limits of the FMS. If you are fatigued due to that rostering then call it and get it changed. You would need a significant amount of pilots to prove your point, not just one or two "whingers". I would think in a company without decent employment protections, the lone whingers might find themselves in the cross-hairs. But in an approved system I dont think that there will be much change. The way I see it, CASA says you have to do it, the company designs (therein lies the problem),implements and rosters by it, the pilots and FA work to it, all because CASA says its OK. If it isnt then try and get it changed. Good luck.
In the grand scheme of things, yes the onus is on everyone when it comes to fatigue management. The company has to implement a FMS, CASA says they have to. The company then rosters within the limits of the FMS. If you are fatigued due to that rostering then call it and get it changed. You would need a significant amount of pilots to prove your point, not just one or two "whingers". I would think in a company without decent employment protections, the lone whingers might find themselves in the cross-hairs. But in an approved system I dont think that there will be much change. The way I see it, CASA says you have to do it, the company designs (therein lies the problem),implements and rosters by it, the pilots and FA work to it, all because CASA says its OK. If it isnt then try and get it changed. Good luck.
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the lone whingers might find themselves in the cross-hairs
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Everyone was told how crap the terms and conditions were when they interviewed. If you agreed to be raped and pillaged from the get-go, don't start complaining now. You had a choice/voice. Maybe you bought this on yourselves?
GA Trojan,
Under the FMS, according to the company and CASA, you shouldn't be tired. Give it a go. I trust you stand by your convictions. Again, good luck.
Under the FMS, according to the company and CASA, you shouldn't be tired. Give it a go. I trust you stand by your convictions. Again, good luck.
Last edited by No Idea Either; 20th Jul 2009 at 23:27. Reason: Added first sentence
If anyone is interested or anyone remembers there is a thread that thrashed itself to death in April this year named;
"V Australia commenced BNE-LAX today"
http://www.pprune.org/dg-p-reporting-points/369138-v-australia-commenced-bne-lax-today-5.html#post4876149
At the time the 'new start optimism' was all that could be heard.
There is some very interesting reading with hindsight!
A few like myself were most uneasy at the belief that the good times would roll on and never end and that the VA T&C's would/could only improve.
Well the economic realities are setting in and unless there is a collective (read unanimous) push by the VA Pilot group to contain the economic realists then things WILL only get worse and the better T&C's that you all hoped for will be as far away as ever!
Yes the VBA T&Cs did improve (as indicated by a resigination rate close to naught), but the last VBA EBA was fought for with what I saw was a strong pilot group working towards a common goal.
Good luck
"V Australia commenced BNE-LAX today"
http://www.pprune.org/dg-p-reporting-points/369138-v-australia-commenced-bne-lax-today-5.html#post4876149
At the time the 'new start optimism' was all that could be heard.
There is some very interesting reading with hindsight!
A few like myself were most uneasy at the belief that the good times would roll on and never end and that the VA T&C's would/could only improve.
Well the economic realities are setting in and unless there is a collective (read unanimous) push by the VA Pilot group to contain the economic realists then things WILL only get worse and the better T&C's that you all hoped for will be as far away as ever!
Yes the VBA T&Cs did improve (as indicated by a resigination rate close to naught), but the last VBA EBA was fought for with what I saw was a strong pilot group working towards a common goal.
Good luck
And there'in lies the challenge ad-astra.
The T&C's at VB did mprove, although to start with they were nowhere near as rediculous as those at VA! They improved because of a united pilot group, but also due to strong company growth, aided in no small measure by the death of Ansett!
The situation now is very different.
The T&C's at VB did mprove, although to start with they were nowhere near as rediculous as those at VA! They improved because of a united pilot group, but also due to strong company growth, aided in no small measure by the death of Ansett!
The situation now is very different.
- No competitor about to fall over
- Significant decline in demand
- Red ink forcast for the forseeable future
- A serious lack of industrial protection
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High Bypass is right..You all new what you were signing up for no use crying about it now,that document you signed spelt out pretty clearly you were all going to be bent over and it was not going to change in a hurry,especially if one RT has anything to do with it..
I hope things change for you people there but unfortunately whilst they managed to get so many to sign up for this Sh*T sandwich they would be kicking themselves now as they would think they are over paying..When the exact number of people that apply equals the amount of positions available they will consider the terms and conditions about right but could do with some tweaking in favour of the company..
I hope things change for you people there but unfortunately whilst they managed to get so many to sign up for this Sh*T sandwich they would be kicking themselves now as they would think they are over paying..When the exact number of people that apply equals the amount of positions available they will consider the terms and conditions about right but could do with some tweaking in favour of the company..
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InandOut - if you read the full email from V re: reduced layovers its states the intention is for all layovers to go to one night. With travel times etc we will be getting less than 24hrs at the hotel. Yuck I can see fatigue reports and sick leave going through the roof.
A fairly well known QF pilot once remarked in a magazine interview that prior to joining Qantas she never had a holiday, let alone an overseas one. I don't think it was an attempt at being glib, but indicative of what can lie at the end of the long hard slog up the ladder.
As a professional long haul pilot, I don't think many would argue that it were unreasonable to either have the time to embrace the destination on the layover, or at least to be earning an income that would allow a lifestyle (including travel) on their days off.
Sadly I think the majority of (and apparently permanent) RFO's will see niether.
As a professional long haul pilot, I don't think many would argue that it were unreasonable to either have the time to embrace the destination on the layover, or at least to be earning an income that would allow a lifestyle (including travel) on their days off.
Sadly I think the majority of (and apparently permanent) RFO's will see niether.
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have to disagree with Krusty with VB conditions:
The T&C's at VB did improve, although to start with they were nowhere near as rediculous as those at VA!
I think not. VB Capts were on 110k back in the day. 8 days at home a month. I should know. But yes VA terms aren't great. In comparison both companies started with similar packages(in a way). Few days off & low pay. In fact I think if VA wasn't affiliated with VB it would be a reasonable starting point for crew in this climate.
However I'm by no means endorsing VA T&Cs. The fact is it should've been aligned with VB better, but we all knew that would never had occurred.
I wish all in VA well, I'm sure things will pick up soon.
cheers
The T&C's at VB did improve, although to start with they were nowhere near as rediculous as those at VA!
I think not. VB Capts were on 110k back in the day. 8 days at home a month. I should know. But yes VA terms aren't great. In comparison both companies started with similar packages(in a way). Few days off & low pay. In fact I think if VA wasn't affiliated with VB it would be a reasonable starting point for crew in this climate.
However I'm by no means endorsing VA T&Cs. The fact is it should've been aligned with VB better, but we all knew that would never had occurred.
I wish all in VA well, I'm sure things will pick up soon.
cheers
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Krusty..you are very much correct!! But again they chose it,nobody forced them to become RFOs or CFOs or SOs or whatever you want to call the position,personally i would have stayed in GA rather then take one of those positions, again if nobody applied they would have had to do something about the terms and conditions but instead they just had to choose who will take the shafting the best..
As for the layover min 29 hours?? We all want longer layovers but you do need to remember you are not going there for a holiday.. I cant wait i can see it now once they start flying to other destinations that have little to do on the layover they will be whinging that the layovers are too long..
You people ordered your Sh*T sandwich now eat it!!
As for the layover min 29 hours?? We all want longer layovers but you do need to remember you are not going there for a holiday.. I cant wait i can see it now once they start flying to other destinations that have little to do on the layover they will be whinging that the layovers are too long..
You people ordered your Sh*T sandwich now eat it!!
godammit,
Point taken re: VB's start up salary and long hours (days). The boys and girls back then however had a reasonable set of working condirions (industrial protection) from which to lay the foundation for change. Something I'm afraid the VA HR wonderkids have nipped in the bud.
Beeroclock.
You're right of course, they are not there for a holiday. But I reckon the novelty will wear off very quickly when one cannot even afford to buy a house, or provide a decent lifestyle for the family.
Anyway, I've certainly said my piece. Goodluck guys. Tough times ahead methinks.
Point taken re: VB's start up salary and long hours (days). The boys and girls back then however had a reasonable set of working condirions (industrial protection) from which to lay the foundation for change. Something I'm afraid the VA HR wonderkids have nipped in the bud.
Beeroclock.
You're right of course, they are not there for a holiday. But I reckon the novelty will wear off very quickly when one cannot even afford to buy a house, or provide a decent lifestyle for the family.
Anyway, I've certainly said my piece. Goodluck guys. Tough times ahead methinks.
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Beeroclock....you would have stayed in GA would you? Rather than go and get a command endorsement on a B777, take the chance, if things improve you then move up through the ranks and have the world as your oyster should you chose that path....From what I've heard, quite a few VB guys didnt have a choice..it was either go to VA or not have a job!! Are you going to sh!tcan those guys as well?
Are you also going to sh!tcan the many expat pilots who have vast levels of experience in International long haul operations who maybe just wanted to come home for family reasons etc?
Should things improve over the next 18 months or so, VA may just be in a strong position..They have the right aircraft, they have the right interline agreements, they have good guys working there and as time goes on and the demand for pilots improves, you may just see a better package of T&C's.
Are you also going to sh!tcan the many expat pilots who have vast levels of experience in International long haul operations who maybe just wanted to come home for family reasons etc?
Should things improve over the next 18 months or so, VA may just be in a strong position..They have the right aircraft, they have the right interline agreements, they have good guys working there and as time goes on and the demand for pilots improves, you may just see a better package of T&C's.
If you are all being rostered fatiguing duties then a confidential report to ATSB, particularly if the majority all put one in, will raise awareness. It may not fix the problem but it will be noticed and should any incident/accident occur then there is a record of less than best practices being employed.
In order for something to change you must work within the guidelines.
raising awareness via PPRUNE will achieve nothing. It needs to be on an official level.
Good Luck
In order for something to change you must work within the guidelines.
raising awareness via PPRUNE will achieve nothing. It needs to be on an official level.
Good Luck
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Sand Dune,again those guys with the vast experience that chose to come home also chose the Sh*T sandwich..The CFOs from what i understand dont even have a command endorsement so alot of good that is..And the guys from VB that have gone across are all senior enough to have kept there jobs, all went across as Captains and FOs..I know of only 2 that went across as CFOs and i still think they were mad.(At least they got command endorsements though)
As for the other CFOs hell yes i would have stayed in GA you all carry on about T and Cs going backwards and its exactly because people accept these positions that they go backwards..No sympathy from here one little bit!! I feel for the Qf SOs though that are threatened with job loss as they didnt except positions that make our industry and profession a disgrace...
The T and Cs you cant compare to VB and how they were as Krusty said there was protection and the pilots were all trying to head the same way..VAs powers have killed that off and there is really nothing to even start with let alone build on..
Anyway thats my rant but all you people need to now live with the monster you created!! Simple as that...
As for the other CFOs hell yes i would have stayed in GA you all carry on about T and Cs going backwards and its exactly because people accept these positions that they go backwards..No sympathy from here one little bit!! I feel for the Qf SOs though that are threatened with job loss as they didnt except positions that make our industry and profession a disgrace...
The T and Cs you cant compare to VB and how they were as Krusty said there was protection and the pilots were all trying to head the same way..VAs powers have killed that off and there is really nothing to even start with let alone build on..
Anyway thats my rant but all you people need to now live with the monster you created!! Simple as that...