Qantas Redundancies
Hugh,
You really should be looking to get out of Qantas anyhow.
There is NO future for junior pilots in Qantas unless you are happy never being a captain for your entire working life.
Melodramatic - not really - it's the companies advertised position to grown Jetstar.
You are stuck at the bottom of a stagnant pond, run away, run as fast as you can as soon as you can. It's delusional to believe there is a healthy future in Mainline. Retirements are about to come to a screaming holt, a colossal age demographic shift is occurring as we approach the last 100 or so pre 84 employment boom pilots leave in the next few years and then there will be a long period of very few retirements and subsequent progression.
You are delusional to believe there is a future in Qantas Mainline so be proactive and make a career for yourself some where else.
Understandable though you may not want to leave the wonderful land of OZ.
In that case you will need to accept there is a significant career penalty in staying, it’s a choice – lifestyle now or career and lifestyle later.
Know what I’d be doing in your case – get a job OS with the prospect of quick command (within 5 years or less) and come back to work for Jetstar as a Captain – simple.
Pathetic you can't have a career in Qantas anymore but that's reality.
You really should be looking to get out of Qantas anyhow.
There is NO future for junior pilots in Qantas unless you are happy never being a captain for your entire working life.
Melodramatic - not really - it's the companies advertised position to grown Jetstar.
You are stuck at the bottom of a stagnant pond, run away, run as fast as you can as soon as you can. It's delusional to believe there is a healthy future in Mainline. Retirements are about to come to a screaming holt, a colossal age demographic shift is occurring as we approach the last 100 or so pre 84 employment boom pilots leave in the next few years and then there will be a long period of very few retirements and subsequent progression.
You are delusional to believe there is a future in Qantas Mainline so be proactive and make a career for yourself some where else.
Understandable though you may not want to leave the wonderful land of OZ.
In that case you will need to accept there is a significant career penalty in staying, it’s a choice – lifestyle now or career and lifestyle later.
Know what I’d be doing in your case – get a job OS with the prospect of quick command (within 5 years or less) and come back to work for Jetstar as a Captain – simple.
Pathetic you can't have a career in Qantas anymore but that's reality.
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Hmmm!
Skippy’s conspiratorial view that the grand plan is to grow Qantas Jetstar while Mainline languishes in the mud, while plausible, probably strikes fear where it shouldn't. Any such plan is fraught with 'barriers' such as:
· the National Aviation Policy Review currently in progress,
· the Qantas Sale Act,
· multinational AOC compliance.
For more on the above barriers visit: http://www.infrastructure.gov.au/avi..._Economics.pdf
Nevertheless, Kangaroos can jump high and nothing in aviation is certain. However, some obstacles are akin to jumping NYC's Empire State and Skippy ain't Superman.
IMHO, it is nimble flexibility to enable redeployment of Group aircraft to the most profitable market segment at any particular time that has the potential to maximise profits in a globalised industry and having Qantas pilots internally compete with each other won't make that possible.
As I've said already Hugh, don't sell the new car yet.
Skippy’s conspiratorial view that the grand plan is to grow Qantas Jetstar while Mainline languishes in the mud, while plausible, probably strikes fear where it shouldn't. Any such plan is fraught with 'barriers' such as:
· the National Aviation Policy Review currently in progress,
· the Qantas Sale Act,
· multinational AOC compliance.
For more on the above barriers visit: http://www.infrastructure.gov.au/avi..._Economics.pdf
Nevertheless, Kangaroos can jump high and nothing in aviation is certain. However, some obstacles are akin to jumping NYC's Empire State and Skippy ain't Superman.
IMHO, it is nimble flexibility to enable redeployment of Group aircraft to the most profitable market segment at any particular time that has the potential to maximise profits in a globalised industry and having Qantas pilots internally compete with each other won't make that possible.
As I've said already Hugh, don't sell the new car yet.
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hotnhigh
I think youv'e asked and answered your own question here.
Or to put it another way, Qantas mainline numbers were so great that no suitable Jetstar pilot would EVER have had the numbers to slot in above the bottom of the QF list.
I would have thought that was self obvious.
Now, back to the topic, how would you propose QF deals with redundancies and placing junior pilots with Jetstar??
I think youv'e asked and answered your own question here.Or to put it another way, Qantas mainline numbers were so great that no suitable Jetstar pilot would EVER have had the numbers to slot in above the bottom of the QF list.
I would have thought that was self obvious.
Now, back to the topic, how would you propose QF deals with redundancies and placing junior pilots with Jetstar??
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The MOU was always going to be one sided we all, from both side, knew that. Jetstar pilot knowingly gave QF pilots opportunities that would never be reciprocated and that is fine with me but lets not cloud that with the bs about "has anyone applied to go to QF" never ever was going to happen.
Agree with Led I would like to see the next FO employed by JQ being redundant QF pilots,should that occur.
Agree with Led I would like to see the next FO employed by JQ being redundant QF pilots,should that occur.
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Well 8 new hires rolled through the doors at JQ HQ on Thursday, all going to DWN.
On the MOU. On the JQ side it is only available to staff hired prior to a certain date and all of those divers are Capts so no one will ever take up the offer.
If any QF guys came over they would be at the bottom of the list and be posted to either Darwin or sent to NZ.
With the 787 delay and the thought that some more A330's may come over to JQ, there is the possibility of having some spots there that may come up.
But this may not be for some time.
On the MOU. On the JQ side it is only available to staff hired prior to a certain date and all of those divers are Capts so no one will ever take up the offer.
If any QF guys came over they would be at the bottom of the list and be posted to either Darwin or sent to NZ.
With the 787 delay and the thought that some more A330's may come over to JQ, there is the possibility of having some spots there that may come up.
But this may not be for some time.
Woodeye - how do you spell rhetoric because thats all you have.
These;
actions speak louder than any words as we in Mainline look down the barrel at redundancies.
Unless AIPA pull a rabbit out of their industrial hat, I'll stand by my post.
It's not
It's not a conspiracy at all - it's a publically stated position of Qantas to grow Jetstar and focus Mainline on specific routes.
I don't know how it could be any more black and white.
AIPA of the time did NOTHING in any tangable way to prevent the distruction of Mainline careers and now we are paying the price with NO career opportunities for pilots like Hugh hence I suggest he get out
These;
Well 8 new hires rolled through the doors at JQ HQ on Thursday, all going to DWN
Unless AIPA pull a rabbit out of their industrial hat, I'll stand by my post.
It's not
Skippy’s conspiratorial view that the grand plan is to grow Qantas Jetstar while Mainline languishes in the mud
I don't know how it could be any more black and white.
AIPA of the time did NOTHING in any tangable way to prevent the distruction of Mainline careers and now we are paying the price with NO career opportunities for pilots like Hugh hence I suggest he get out
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Muddy, you’re unnecessarily frightening the horses mate.
Notwithstanding, would appreciate you providing a link to a reputable source clarifying that it is Qantas’ stated public position that:
Nothing I can recall says much more than; Qantas is a full service international carrier, Jetstar an LCC international carrier with the route structure of Jetstar to be determined by market demand for international LCC’s.
It’s Hugh’s decision of course, but IMHO jumping out of Mainline right now is a gutsy call and not one I would recommend my 28 yr old son make if he were a pilot.
Nevertheless, I’ll admit that should the GOAL not be kicked by the end of the 2010/11 FY, it will never be. In the meantime, don't expect much growth for either Qantas or Jetstar.
Notwithstanding, would appreciate you providing a link to a reputable source clarifying that it is Qantas’ stated public position that:
Qantas (will) grow Jetstar and focus Mainline on specific routes.
It’s Hugh’s decision of course, but IMHO jumping out of Mainline right now is a gutsy call and not one I would recommend my 28 yr old son make if he were a pilot.
Nevertheless, I’ll admit that should the GOAL not be kicked by the end of the 2010/11 FY, it will never be. In the meantime, don't expect much growth for either Qantas or Jetstar.
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Originally Posted by pylet
After a few 'on-topic' posts this thread will no doubt drift into the dribble of most others as members shed the weight off their shoulders.
Hugh, just be very cautious of those telling you the grass is greener somewhere else. Green seems to be a subjective colour in aviation.
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DutchRoll - sometimes I amaze myself with my predictive powers!
This post was always headed towards a therapy session for some members to vent their frustration over 'MOUs', put out their 'demise of mainline conspiracies' and try to inch ever higher on an already soaked wall!
Again, the questions surrounding redundancies should be addressed to AIPA via email or simply calling - you pay them after all! In the mean-time, there is LSL to be asigned, 6 months notice of the possibility of redunancies, MOU, lower divisers for all (I know what the EBA says with 160, but if it means no one would lose their job then why not?) and voluntary redunancies (stages 1,2 etc). The later packages could very much appeal to the older blokes (60 and above) as the package could equate to what they may have lost in super as opposed to working additional years simply to make it back again.
BTW, how many Virgin drivers were made redundant when they were 60 over stock? Lets not get too wound-up..............
This post was always headed towards a therapy session for some members to vent their frustration over 'MOUs', put out their 'demise of mainline conspiracies' and try to inch ever higher on an already soaked wall!
Again, the questions surrounding redundancies should be addressed to AIPA via email or simply calling - you pay them after all! In the mean-time, there is LSL to be asigned, 6 months notice of the possibility of redunancies, MOU, lower divisers for all (I know what the EBA says with 160, but if it means no one would lose their job then why not?) and voluntary redunancies (stages 1,2 etc). The later packages could very much appeal to the older blokes (60 and above) as the package could equate to what they may have lost in super as opposed to working additional years simply to make it back again.
BTW, how many Virgin drivers were made redundant when they were 60 over stock? Lets not get too wound-up..............
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Jetbest, I'm still waiting for a knowledgable reply from you. I'd also be interested to know why you don't consider the offsets that were given for the EBA to be offsets?
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Pylet and others -
I'm sure you are right about your EBA, 6 months notice etc. etc., but I think the issue is also one of opportunity for those junior "at risk" QF mainline pilots.
Jetstar is definitely looking for F/O's right now, but who knows what the situation will be in 6 months. AIPA as a matter of priority should be facilitating a process to give these pilots some "permanence" with long term transfers into Jetstar.
Some may elect to run the gauntlet and wait, but I personally know several of this group who would grab this opportunity and run with it.
I'm sure you are right about your EBA, 6 months notice etc. etc., but I think the issue is also one of opportunity for those junior "at risk" QF mainline pilots.
Jetstar is definitely looking for F/O's right now, but who knows what the situation will be in 6 months. AIPA as a matter of priority should be facilitating a process to give these pilots some "permanence" with long term transfers into Jetstar.
Some may elect to run the gauntlet and wait, but I personally know several of this group who would grab this opportunity and run with it.
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Led Zepp, can you now understand why mainline pilots, especially the junior ones are so aggrieved? They have been wanting this (the ability to go to j*) from day one, the opportunity to make a choice. But they have been blocked. The hostility is towards those that deliberately stymie career progression, management and a small minority of qf & j* pilots.
Many who simply wanted a window seat, now face the possibility of retrenchment, all the while the "Qantas Group" continues to employ pilots.
qf mainline has a mini version of the GOAL, - the intergration agreement, ensuring those on an aircraft at the time of integration where not disadvantaged by another, more senior pilot on another aircraft. On the whole it worked, not perfect. Every "A" pilot was given a command shot on the B737 before any more senior "Q" pilot.
My understanding is a GOAL would work in exactly the same way. It is no something to fear, quite the opposite, it provides opportunities for all sorts of career paths, with pilots trading off promotion for differing T&Cs - but by their own choice, not because of management prerogative.
But, I suspect that is what this is all about, management prerogative, & the ability to manipulate through favours & playing one group off against another. Is this the sort of workplace you want to be at?
This can be stopped, by realising your fellow pilots are not the enemy, most just want a reasonable prospect of career progression. If the world has changed, they just want to have the opportunity be a part of it, not left to rot because they have a Q seniority number.
Many who simply wanted a window seat, now face the possibility of retrenchment, all the while the "Qantas Group" continues to employ pilots.
qf mainline has a mini version of the GOAL, - the intergration agreement, ensuring those on an aircraft at the time of integration where not disadvantaged by another, more senior pilot on another aircraft. On the whole it worked, not perfect. Every "A" pilot was given a command shot on the B737 before any more senior "Q" pilot.
My understanding is a GOAL would work in exactly the same way. It is no something to fear, quite the opposite, it provides opportunities for all sorts of career paths, with pilots trading off promotion for differing T&Cs - but by their own choice, not because of management prerogative.
But, I suspect that is what this is all about, management prerogative, & the ability to manipulate through favours & playing one group off against another. Is this the sort of workplace you want to be at?
This can be stopped, by realising your fellow pilots are not the enemy, most just want a reasonable prospect of career progression. If the world has changed, they just want to have the opportunity be a part of it, not left to rot because they have a Q seniority number.
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BB,
I was very much trying to keep my last comments directed at this very specific issue of junior pilots. It clearly makes sense in this case for transfers into JQ at the bottom of the list. No one should disagree with this.
The overall issue of AIPA, of how it has behaved, the self interest groups within, GOAL etc., are for another forum. So, you'll excuse me if I don't respond to your comments here.
I was very much trying to keep my last comments directed at this very specific issue of junior pilots. It clearly makes sense in this case for transfers into JQ at the bottom of the list. No one should disagree with this.
The overall issue of AIPA, of how it has behaved, the self interest groups within, GOAL etc., are for another forum. So, you'll excuse me if I don't respond to your comments here.
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Investment opportunity in tough ecconomic times.
There is NO future for junior pilots in Qantas unless you are happy never being a captain for your entire working life.
No wonder the Mods are all bald.
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Mud sure has a chip on his shoulder
If you are that assured that there is no future in mainline and you actually are in the system then why are you not going elsewhere?
It's a bloody big call to cay there is no future in mainline, very big indeed.
If you are that assured that there is no future in mainline and you actually are in the system then why are you not going elsewhere?
It's a bloody big call to cay there is no future in mainline, very big indeed.
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I would like to personally thank Fi#zgerald, Di$mond & all those other idiots in Qantas recruitment from about 7 years ago for denying me the chance to enter the magical world of being a Qantas Pilot. You know, back then I was a little upset that my own national airline didn't think I was good enough to do the job, but you did do the best thing for my career. If only you knew what I was doing now and the prospects that I have at my age. Thank you very much Qantas.
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Feel good to get that off your shoulders Bypass ratio?! You made the most of your situation and that's admirable - but the "best thing for your career" sounds like a big call and dependant on ones situation. Less money and a few more years to promotion, but living in Australia is worth it (my opinion)!
If your happy, that's great! And if youre done lifting the weight, lets get back to the subject!
I for one would find the JQ option appealing as opposed to LWOP or, of course, redunancies (little way off yet!).
If your happy, that's great! And if youre done lifting the weight, lets get back to the subject!
I for one would find the JQ option appealing as opposed to LWOP or, of course, redunancies (little way off yet!).
I would like to personally thank QF for giving me a job. Being a pretty average pilot I need a sheltered environment and I don't think that I could cut it overseas; they eat different food and speak funny. Flying outside Australia is difficult and all of us in QF would struggle with that. Anyone flying overseas could do any job in Australia and do it better. I don't want a captaincy, that's scary.
There, that feels better.
ruprecht
There, that feels better.
ruprecht