AIr France Passenger Jet drops off Radar
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Greg Feith Net!
Scroll halfway down..... (video section)
Oh yes - I agree, he does know more than a bit.
I just find him amusing.
Scroll halfway down..... (video section)
Oh yes - I agree, he does know more than a bit.
I just find him amusing.
Recovery of Data Recorders
Given the water depth estimated at approx 15000' at the impact site, the recovery of wreckage and esp the data recorders will be extremely difficult. They are talking of using ROV's as at that depth the water pressure is approx 6700 lbs or 3000KG per sq inch.
If the recorders are still bolted in place in a large piece of tail cone wreckage as opposed to just lying free on the ocean floor an ROV may very well be of no use.
If it was a high speed impact like Swissair 111 where the plane was shredded into tens of thousands of pieces most smaller than a keyboard they may indeed be easier to" pick up", if they survived.
This accident once again should raise the issue of why ejectable FDR/CVR combo packages are still not fitted to commercial aircraft, esp those that spend most of the time over the worlds oceans.( We always seem to forget our planet is 70%covered by water)
Cost differences between any new type of recorders and old as well as retrofitting existing aircraft as opposed to fitting as original equipment will of course be the main issue, as always . (The experts will do the cost benefit analysis and decide against it as they have done with other safety improvements like fire suppression systems and many others.)
The idea is not new by any means but has not been implemented except by some military arms. See links for a little initial info. Note the 1st article date----
Remove Data Before Impact | Air Safety Week | Find Articles at BNET
Crash Position Indicator/Crash Survivable Flight Data Recorder Ejectable versus Nonejectable
faa and recorder Resources | BNET
Maybe they will mandate this type of system for the future, maybe not.
If the recorders are still bolted in place in a large piece of tail cone wreckage as opposed to just lying free on the ocean floor an ROV may very well be of no use.
If it was a high speed impact like Swissair 111 where the plane was shredded into tens of thousands of pieces most smaller than a keyboard they may indeed be easier to" pick up", if they survived.
This accident once again should raise the issue of why ejectable FDR/CVR combo packages are still not fitted to commercial aircraft, esp those that spend most of the time over the worlds oceans.( We always seem to forget our planet is 70%covered by water)
Cost differences between any new type of recorders and old as well as retrofitting existing aircraft as opposed to fitting as original equipment will of course be the main issue, as always . (The experts will do the cost benefit analysis and decide against it as they have done with other safety improvements like fire suppression systems and many others.)
The idea is not new by any means but has not been implemented except by some military arms. See links for a little initial info. Note the 1st article date----
Remove Data Before Impact | Air Safety Week | Find Articles at BNET
Crash Position Indicator/Crash Survivable Flight Data Recorder Ejectable versus Nonejectable
faa and recorder Resources | BNET
Maybe they will mandate this type of system for the future, maybe not.
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Blueloo, I don't know whether to find that amusing or scary....!
There's a lot of talk about salvage operations and capability of different countries. Aussie, with regard to the data recorder still be attached to prt of the a/c structure... I thought they were designed to separate on impact so easier to find? Or is that just porky pies I've read?
Whatever the outcome, I have a feeling this accident is going to make waves in the industry, and that a lot of learning will be done. Every accident teaches something, but for some reason I get the vibe that this one will be a stand out for various as-yet-unknown reasons.
There's a lot of talk about salvage operations and capability of different countries. Aussie, with regard to the data recorder still be attached to prt of the a/c structure... I thought they were designed to separate on impact so easier to find? Or is that just porky pies I've read?
Whatever the outcome, I have a feeling this accident is going to make waves in the industry, and that a lot of learning will be done. Every accident teaches something, but for some reason I get the vibe that this one will be a stand out for various as-yet-unknown reasons.
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Sacrilege! How could they not know who Greg Feith is?!?!
I mean, c'mon we gave them the answer on a platter, we all know they just read pprune anyway...! who else has ties like that??
Back to the serious subject of this thread... promising signs now that more debris & passengers have been found, anything which gives the investigators more to work with is good.
It's a bit difficult with the pax though, when they say things like "Is this plane an Airbus A330?" and when you say yes they give you a scared look or mutter that they 'don't want to die like Air France did' (kid you not that was an exact quote)
I mean, c'mon we gave them the answer on a platter, we all know they just read pprune anyway...! who else has ties like that??
Back to the serious subject of this thread... promising signs now that more debris & passengers have been found, anything which gives the investigators more to work with is good.
It's a bit difficult with the pax though, when they say things like "Is this plane an Airbus A330?" and when you say yes they give you a scared look or mutter that they 'don't want to die like Air France did' (kid you not that was an exact quote)
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I thought they were designed to separate on impact so easier to find? Or is that just porky pies I've read?
Finding more and more bodies is no more promising signs IMO, theres a fairly good idea of what happened already. Even cursory reading should have shown anyone that.
Nunc est bibendum
Breaking news on Ch 10 tonight indicated that two names on the passenger list had links to terrorism. I have no further info than that and it is a journo source after all so who knows.
Lots of water to go under the bridge on this one yet!
Lots of water to go under the bridge on this one yet!
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AoA
Sorry, I meant 'promising signs' as in, it's a lot more than they had a few days ago. Before any debris was found it would have been extremely difficult to pinpoint an area where AF could have ended up, as it's such a large area. In no way did I mean the term 'promising' to be disrespectful to anyone.
While you may have an idea of 'what happened', I do not (other than guessing/speculating) and as I am not an investigator I won't presume to post anything near a 'cause' here. If by 'cursory reading' you meant the AF447 thread in R&N I actually have been following that, but as the expertise there far outweighs mine, I was merely making an observation that the more is recovered, the more information is gained. i don't think any investigator would argue with that.
The media (and by extent the public) are now becoming in my opinion obssessed with the A330. Jetstar had an unfortunate incident which good news for them was not worse, but now the media are emphasising the fact that the aircraft maker is the same.
Bet they'd freak if they remembered the run of Boeing accidents a few decades back. Or how about Embraers, or ATR, or or or... Just wish they would use statistics to back things up, rather than sensationalise things.
Oh wait, that doesn't sell papers, does it?
While you may have an idea of 'what happened', I do not (other than guessing/speculating) and as I am not an investigator I won't presume to post anything near a 'cause' here. If by 'cursory reading' you meant the AF447 thread in R&N I actually have been following that, but as the expertise there far outweighs mine, I was merely making an observation that the more is recovered, the more information is gained. i don't think any investigator would argue with that.
The media (and by extent the public) are now becoming in my opinion obssessed with the A330. Jetstar had an unfortunate incident which good news for them was not worse, but now the media are emphasising the fact that the aircraft maker is the same.
Bet they'd freak if they remembered the run of Boeing accidents a few decades back. Or how about Embraers, or ATR, or or or... Just wish they would use statistics to back things up, rather than sensationalise things.
Oh wait, that doesn't sell papers, does it?
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Yeah, but that's the media isn't it?
I mean, we have to live with them whether anyone likes it or not. They'll always sensationalise, leap to conclusions, and use non-technical, incorrect, and trivial terms that joe public can understand. We just have to deal with it.
Just like every other "connection" they've made, it will blow over eventually.
I mean, we have to live with them whether anyone likes it or not. They'll always sensationalise, leap to conclusions, and use non-technical, incorrect, and trivial terms that joe public can understand. We just have to deal with it.
Just like every other "connection" they've made, it will blow over eventually.
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You think the public are worried about the A330, apart from a handling / test flying cock up in the 90's, the only other hull losses for A330's has been from Tamils and a dodgey cargo shipment corroding a hull from China
.
So until this AF crash the A330 has really had a good run. The B777 was doing really well until a kero slush puppie bent one at LHR.
So which one do you think has a safety perception issue?
J
Popcorn anyone?
.So until this AF crash the A330 has really had a good run. The B777 was doing really well until a kero slush puppie bent one at LHR.
So which one do you think has a safety perception issue?
J
Popcorn anyone?
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Had a few beers in a aircrew bar in Honkers, talking to european pilots who said the word is, blocked pitots, due to heat failure, leading to a trip into coffin corner, don't know quite where they got it from, but seemed fairly sure, said they heard it from Air France pilots, so who knows, it is certainly possible...........
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Jabawocky, that was my point, I know that the A330 has a pretty good record (no hull loss in commercial service until now) but from looking at the sheep on board bleating repeats of the news, saying it's a death trap and making comments that they don't want to die, well you can see the sensationalists have done their job...
I'd just like to see some reporter actually do the research and compare between the two, for clarity's sake. But we know that won't happen...
I think it's just that Boeing has been around longer, so pax feel more comfortable. The smart ones know it could happen to any of us (there for the grace of god etc)
I'd just like to see some reporter actually do the research and compare between the two, for clarity's sake. But we know that won't happen...
I think it's just that Boeing has been around longer, so pax feel more comfortable. The smart ones know it could happen to any of us (there for the grace of god etc)
Air France pilots demand US-made air speed monitors
PARIS, July 29, 2009 (AFP) - The top pilots' union at Air France demanded on Wednesday that European airspeed monitors be replaced by US-made models across the airline's fleet after a new malfunction was reported this month.
An Airbus 320 equipped with new speed probes made by European electronics giant Thales was flying from Rome to Paris on July 13 when the sensors, known as pitot tubes, broke down, Air France said late Tuesday.
The SNPL pilots' union demanded the Thales monitors be replaced by those made by US-based Goodrich, which provides pitot tubes to 70 percent of the world's aircraft.
Air France decided on June 12 to upgrade all pitot probes after pilots raised the alarm following the crash of Flight 447 in the Atlantic with 228 people on board, the airline's worst disaster in its 75-year history.
The union said the Goodrich models' record showed it had been problem-free. "We are asking that the fleet be modified with sensors that have not been the object of any complaint," said union spokesman Erick Derivry. The SNPL "wants the entire fleet to be equipped with Goodrich models that would replace the Thales sensors," he told AFP.
Air France said the malfunction of the probes on the Rome to Paris flight "lasted only a few seconds" and did not jeopardize the safety of the passengers. But French air safety officials are investigating the incident.
French investigators have said that the faulty speed monitors were a factor but not the cause of the June 1 crash of the Airbus that was flying through heavy turbulence on a flight from Rio to Paris.
Speculation has focused on the speed sensors, which fed inconsistent readings to the cockpit just before the plane went down.
The pilots' union spokesman said that the latest problem onboard an Airbus jetliner showed there was a "body of elements showing that this incident was similar to other incidents and to the accident involving Flight 447."
Replacing the pitot tubes with the new Thales models "will not bring about the hoped-for improvements," said Derivry.
Another pilots' union earlier this month accused French and European air safety bodies of ignoring warnings about the faulty speed probes such as variations in airspeed data in severe weather conditions.
Source : AFP
Company : Air France
An Airbus 320 equipped with new speed probes made by European electronics giant Thales was flying from Rome to Paris on July 13 when the sensors, known as pitot tubes, broke down, Air France said late Tuesday.
The SNPL pilots' union demanded the Thales monitors be replaced by those made by US-based Goodrich, which provides pitot tubes to 70 percent of the world's aircraft.
Air France decided on June 12 to upgrade all pitot probes after pilots raised the alarm following the crash of Flight 447 in the Atlantic with 228 people on board, the airline's worst disaster in its 75-year history.
The union said the Goodrich models' record showed it had been problem-free. "We are asking that the fleet be modified with sensors that have not been the object of any complaint," said union spokesman Erick Derivry. The SNPL "wants the entire fleet to be equipped with Goodrich models that would replace the Thales sensors," he told AFP.
Air France said the malfunction of the probes on the Rome to Paris flight "lasted only a few seconds" and did not jeopardize the safety of the passengers. But French air safety officials are investigating the incident.
French investigators have said that the faulty speed monitors were a factor but not the cause of the June 1 crash of the Airbus that was flying through heavy turbulence on a flight from Rio to Paris.
Speculation has focused on the speed sensors, which fed inconsistent readings to the cockpit just before the plane went down.
The pilots' union spokesman said that the latest problem onboard an Airbus jetliner showed there was a "body of elements showing that this incident was similar to other incidents and to the accident involving Flight 447."
Replacing the pitot tubes with the new Thales models "will not bring about the hoped-for improvements," said Derivry.
Another pilots' union earlier this month accused French and European air safety bodies of ignoring warnings about the faulty speed probes such as variations in airspeed data in severe weather conditions.
Source : AFP
Company : Air France
French ship in new search for Air France black boxes
PARIS, July 30, 2009 (AFP) - A French survey vessel has begun scanning the ocean floor for black boxes from an Air France jet that mysteriously crashed in the Atlantic last month, killing 228 people, investigators said Thursday.
The Pourquoi Pas? vessel from the French oceanography institute IFREMER arrived Monday at the disaster site to launch the second phase of the search for the flight recorders, said the French air accident bureau BEA.
"The survey work of the ocean depths has begun in the area considered the most likely location," using sonars, the Nautile mini-submarine and the Victor 6000 robot for deep-sea exploration, said a BEA statement.
French and Brazilian search teams on July 10 ended their efforts to locate the signal of the black boxes of Flight 447 when the batteries powering the emissions were believed to have run out.
The Airbus 330 crashed in a storm on its way from Rio de Janeiro to Paris on June 1 with the loss of all 228 people on board, the worst disaster in Air France's 75-year history, and one that has yet to be explained.
French investigators have said the task of finding the flight recorders was formidable after debris was found scattered across the remote area some 1,000 kilometers (600 miles) off Brazil's coast.
The black boxes -- which are actually clad in orange metal casing to protect them and make them visible -- could be lying on the ocean floor as deep as 3,500 metres under water, in rugged terrain.
Phase two of the search is due to end on August 22.
The black boxes are designed to emit a signal for at least 30 days after a crash. One of the devices records flight data and the other captures the voices of the crew and other cockpit sounds.
French investigators also "took note" of an offer from Airbus to help fund a third phase of the search over a broader area, the BEA statement said.
Airbus is willing to spend up to 20 million euros to help in the search for the flight recorders, their airplane maker's chief executive Thomas Enders told La Tribune daily.
"We want to know what exactly happened," he said. "We are supporting an extended search by making a big contribution."
The newspaper said Airbus was willing to give between 12 and 20 million euros (16.8 to 28 million dollars) so that the search could be extended by "at least three months."
Source : AFP
Company : Airbus, an EADS N.V. company (Paris: EAD.PA)
The Pourquoi Pas? vessel from the French oceanography institute IFREMER arrived Monday at the disaster site to launch the second phase of the search for the flight recorders, said the French air accident bureau BEA.
"The survey work of the ocean depths has begun in the area considered the most likely location," using sonars, the Nautile mini-submarine and the Victor 6000 robot for deep-sea exploration, said a BEA statement.
French and Brazilian search teams on July 10 ended their efforts to locate the signal of the black boxes of Flight 447 when the batteries powering the emissions were believed to have run out.
The Airbus 330 crashed in a storm on its way from Rio de Janeiro to Paris on June 1 with the loss of all 228 people on board, the worst disaster in Air France's 75-year history, and one that has yet to be explained.
French investigators have said the task of finding the flight recorders was formidable after debris was found scattered across the remote area some 1,000 kilometers (600 miles) off Brazil's coast.
The black boxes -- which are actually clad in orange metal casing to protect them and make them visible -- could be lying on the ocean floor as deep as 3,500 metres under water, in rugged terrain.
Phase two of the search is due to end on August 22.
The black boxes are designed to emit a signal for at least 30 days after a crash. One of the devices records flight data and the other captures the voices of the crew and other cockpit sounds.
French investigators also "took note" of an offer from Airbus to help fund a third phase of the search over a broader area, the BEA statement said.
Airbus is willing to spend up to 20 million euros to help in the search for the flight recorders, their airplane maker's chief executive Thomas Enders told La Tribune daily.
"We want to know what exactly happened," he said. "We are supporting an extended search by making a big contribution."
The newspaper said Airbus was willing to give between 12 and 20 million euros (16.8 to 28 million dollars) so that the search could be extended by "at least three months."
Source : AFP
Company : Airbus, an EADS N.V. company (Paris: EAD.PA)
More bad press for Air France
Air France plane bumps Brazzaville building
BRAZZAVILLE, July 30, 2009 (AFP) - An Air France Airbus A330 hit a building just after landing in Congo's capital Brazzaville and was banned from taking off with any passengers, Civil Aviation Minister Emile Ouosso said Thursday.
The incident occurred on Wednesday night at Brazzaville's Maya-Maya airport. "While the plane was manoeuvring on the tarmac, just after landing, the tip of its right wing brushed a building," Ouosso said.
"Several dozen people were on board the plane," but nobody was hurt, he added.
"Air France officials reassured me that technically the plane could fly without any problem. But by precaution and as a security measure, we grounded it. The plane must return to France without any passengers," the minister said.
Some of those who had been due to fly to Paris on the Airbus on Thursday took another flight via Kinshasa in the Democratic Republic of Congo, while others will wait for an airliner due on Friday, Ouosso said.
An Air France spokesman in Paris played down the incident.
"It was a winglet that simply scraped a building while taxiing towards the parking bay in Brazzaville," the spokesman said. The winglet is a small vertical section at the tip of the wing.
The head of security at Maya-Maya airport, Captain Albert Roy Mossingonda, said that the accident scraped the plane when the wing hit a "hangar at the airport."
The wing "has a scratch. That's all you can see with the naked eye. For the rest, the Congo does not have the appropriate material to test and discover deeper damage," Mossingonda said.
Air France is one of the big Western companies flying to the Republic of Congo, with four weekly flights including three direct ones between Paris and Brazzaville.
On June 1, an Air France Airbus A330 flying from Rio de Janeiro to Paris plunged into the Atlantic Ocean, at the cost of all 228 lives on board. The cause of that accident was still not known Thursday, but at the beginning of July, the technical investigation team ruled out an explosion or a change of flight path.
On June 30, another Airbus, an A310 owned by the Yemenia airline crashed in the Indian Ocean off the Comoro Islands, with 153 passengers and crew. The only survivor was a 12-year-old girl.
Source: AFP
BRAZZAVILLE, July 30, 2009 (AFP) - An Air France Airbus A330 hit a building just after landing in Congo's capital Brazzaville and was banned from taking off with any passengers, Civil Aviation Minister Emile Ouosso said Thursday.
The incident occurred on Wednesday night at Brazzaville's Maya-Maya airport. "While the plane was manoeuvring on the tarmac, just after landing, the tip of its right wing brushed a building," Ouosso said.
"Several dozen people were on board the plane," but nobody was hurt, he added.
"Air France officials reassured me that technically the plane could fly without any problem. But by precaution and as a security measure, we grounded it. The plane must return to France without any passengers," the minister said.
Some of those who had been due to fly to Paris on the Airbus on Thursday took another flight via Kinshasa in the Democratic Republic of Congo, while others will wait for an airliner due on Friday, Ouosso said.
An Air France spokesman in Paris played down the incident.
"It was a winglet that simply scraped a building while taxiing towards the parking bay in Brazzaville," the spokesman said. The winglet is a small vertical section at the tip of the wing.
The head of security at Maya-Maya airport, Captain Albert Roy Mossingonda, said that the accident scraped the plane when the wing hit a "hangar at the airport."
The wing "has a scratch. That's all you can see with the naked eye. For the rest, the Congo does not have the appropriate material to test and discover deeper damage," Mossingonda said.
Air France is one of the big Western companies flying to the Republic of Congo, with four weekly flights including three direct ones between Paris and Brazzaville.
On June 1, an Air France Airbus A330 flying from Rio de Janeiro to Paris plunged into the Atlantic Ocean, at the cost of all 228 lives on board. The cause of that accident was still not known Thursday, but at the beginning of July, the technical investigation team ruled out an explosion or a change of flight path.
On June 30, another Airbus, an A310 owned by the Yemenia airline crashed in the Indian Ocean off the Comoro Islands, with 153 passengers and crew. The only survivor was a 12-year-old girl.
Source: AFP
Air France-KLM reports heavy losses
PARIS, July 30, 2009 (AFP) - The Franco-Dutch airline Air France-KLM, Europe's biggest airline, reported on Thursday a net loss of 426 million euros (600 million dollars) in the first quarter of its 2009-2010 fiscal year.
The results contrasted with net earnings of 149 million euros in the corresponding April-June period the previous year, reflecting a global battering of the aviation sector in the eye of the financial crisis.
"Global economic activity has stabilised at unprecedented low levels, leading to a sharp decline in volumes and unit revenues," the airline said in a statement, adding that "the airline sector has been particularly affected."
The group said sales had fallen 20.5 percent to 5.17 billion euros and that passenger traffic had dipped by 5.8 percent and cargo traffic by 22.7 percent.
Air France KLM in the last fiscal year announced its first losses since the 2003 merger of Air France and KLM and said it would cut 2,700 jobs.
The group said on Thursday there would likely be "a further deterioration in the second quarter, albeit at a slower pace than in the first" for passenger traffic and "a progressive stabilisation in the second half" for cargo traffic.
Source : AFP
Company : Air France
The results contrasted with net earnings of 149 million euros in the corresponding April-June period the previous year, reflecting a global battering of the aviation sector in the eye of the financial crisis.
"Global economic activity has stabilised at unprecedented low levels, leading to a sharp decline in volumes and unit revenues," the airline said in a statement, adding that "the airline sector has been particularly affected."
The group said sales had fallen 20.5 percent to 5.17 billion euros and that passenger traffic had dipped by 5.8 percent and cargo traffic by 22.7 percent.
Air France KLM in the last fiscal year announced its first losses since the 2003 merger of Air France and KLM and said it would cut 2,700 jobs.
The group said on Thursday there would likely be "a further deterioration in the second quarter, albeit at a slower pace than in the first" for passenger traffic and "a progressive stabilisation in the second half" for cargo traffic.
Source : AFP
Company : Air France