DOTARS changes jump seat requirements
Join Date: May 1999
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I was paxing on a flight a few weeks ago and a couple of DOTARs blokes came on board for a "surprize" inspection. One of the things they wanted/needed to check was the crew meals. So seals were broken to show them that there was no knife concealed in the box. 
This no-one-in-the-jump-seat thing is the number one topic in the Crew Room at the moment and is rediculous. FOr example if a pilot is commuting down to, say, Sydney and will take the aircraft back as PIC, then one way he's bad, and the other way he's good
SOme pencil neck is trying to make a name for himself in Canberra and this should stop right now!
This no-one-in-the-jump-seat thing is the number one topic in the Crew Room at the moment and is rediculous. FOr example if a pilot is commuting down to, say, Sydney and will take the aircraft back as PIC, then one way he's bad, and the other way he's good
SOme pencil neck is trying to make a name for himself in Canberra and this should stop right now!
Well, I have left my 2 bobs worth on their website.
Maybe the unions REALLY need to pull together on this as a united front. This is why we are paying membership fee's guys!
(A little heavy handed, but if the unions/pilots said we weren't going to fly an airliner until the goverment fixed this ridiculous situation, im sure they wouldn't wan't the countries air system grinding to a halt in this economic climate.)
Unbelieveable.
PS Capt Fathom...agreed, but when the jumpseat is your only chance of getting on a jet using your staff travel at times its invaluable. Not many perks some see it these days, but staff travel/commuting can be. On the flip side, its the fact they are TAKING the power off the skipper of the use of the jumpseat.
Maybe the unions REALLY need to pull together on this as a united front. This is why we are paying membership fee's guys!
(A little heavy handed, but if the unions/pilots said we weren't going to fly an airliner until the goverment fixed this ridiculous situation, im sure they wouldn't wan't the countries air system grinding to a halt in this economic climate.)
Unbelieveable.
PS Capt Fathom...agreed, but when the jumpseat is your only chance of getting on a jet using your staff travel at times its invaluable. Not many perks some see it these days, but staff travel/commuting can be. On the flip side, its the fact they are TAKING the power off the skipper of the use of the jumpseat.
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My understanding is that the Captain still has ultimate authority of who is allowed to sit in the jumpseat.
If the Union said not to fly because of the jumpseat issue I think you would find that not too many people would do it. Talk to the guys from 89 as they are particularly gun shy on that one.
If the Union said not to fly because of the jumpseat issue I think you would find that not too many people would do it. Talk to the guys from 89 as they are particularly gun shy on that one.
The pilot unions (particularly the QANTAS one) seem pretty powerful, how many other unions check work patterns before they are allocated to staff? But then why when it comes to lobbying the government and getting media attention do they seem to fail?
They should (as much as I hate to say it, as I truly hate them
) get some ideas from the Teachers Union, the ACTU and the AMA who always seem to be in the news.
They should (as much as I hate to say it, as I truly hate them
) get some ideas from the Teachers Union, the ACTU and the AMA who always seem to be in the news.
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Yes DJ have had the same information 'duty' travel now only allowed to fly in the cockpit, nobody on staff travel anymore, Ive flown jump once about 2 years ago from ADL-MEL, great experience.
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These types are generally airline pilot wannabees that couldn't be because they never had the balls to go out and do it.
Somewhere in the world everyday a new rule comes out to take away a condition or perk that we used to have.
I hadn't been overseas for a while so imagine my surprise when i was given real cutlery! Australia: we really do like to make things as difficult as we can. There is a funpolice member on every corner.
Somewhere in the world everyday a new rule comes out to take away a condition or perk that we used to have.
I hadn't been overseas for a while so imagine my surprise when i was given real cutlery! Australia: we really do like to make things as difficult as we can. There is a funpolice member on every corner.
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This reeks of a bureaucrat in DOTARS (rolls off the tongue much better than DITRDLG) taking up a senior position and trying to get noticed.
It will be his attempt to "stamp" a major decision on his reign. Naturally when you do this, the actual rationale, practicality, and any measurable effectiveness is completely unimportant. All that matters is that everyone knows about it and how you pushed it through.
I would love to see the documentation detailing the arguments used to institute this policy.
It will be his attempt to "stamp" a major decision on his reign. Naturally when you do this, the actual rationale, practicality, and any measurable effectiveness is completely unimportant. All that matters is that everyone knows about it and how you pushed it through.
I would love to see the documentation detailing the arguments used to institute this policy.
Last edited by DutchRoll; 31st May 2009 at 03:39.
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"The Review concluded that the community does not adequately value the role of an aviation security screener. Screeners surveyed for the Review said they often suffer from both a lack of respect within the aviation industry and from conflicts with the travelling public. The Review supports any strategies for improving the public image and credibility of screeners by highlighting the critical and important nature of their work. A change of job title is being proposed to better reflect screeners’ specialist role and assist in the changing of community perceptions towards the vocation."
hehehehehhahahahah
"well it WAS the pilots that crashed those planes on September 11 ! "
Better still, just ban all aviation activity full stop.
en morons
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Jump seat just remember fedex
My view would be to have only operating crew access to flight deck, and jump seat only to be occupied when operationally required i.e line check, training SO etc.
You only have to cast your mind back to the fedex flight that Auburn Callaway (a Fed ex pilot riding in the jump seat) attacked the crew in an effort to gain control of the aircraft in an attempt try to spear dive it into the fedex premises at Memphis. He was about to get the sack from fedex.
In those days he was allowed to take on board a fishing spear gun and hammer which he belted the pilots heads in with!
Still the pilots gained control by use of restraint whilst injured and some aerobatics of the DC10.
After this incident FEDEX still allow employees to travel in the jump seat on or off duty for their personal travel.
Food for thought
Regards
Karl
You only have to cast your mind back to the fedex flight that Auburn Callaway (a Fed ex pilot riding in the jump seat) attacked the crew in an effort to gain control of the aircraft in an attempt try to spear dive it into the fedex premises at Memphis. He was about to get the sack from fedex.
In those days he was allowed to take on board a fishing spear gun and hammer which he belted the pilots heads in with!
Still the pilots gained control by use of restraint whilst injured and some aerobatics of the DC10.
After this incident FEDEX still allow employees to travel in the jump seat on or off duty for their personal travel.
Food for thought
Regards
Karl
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Karl, I see your point but I think the spear gun and hammer were as much of an issue. A person in the cabin could wreak havoc with those items as well, although not as much as in the cockpit. A Flight Attendant visiting the flight deck for operational reasons could also go nuts in a similar fashion.
Additionally, that was one jumpseater out of how many zillions since the dawn of aviation?
IMO there seems to be a serious lack of risk assessment and a serious surplus of 'what might happen, if there were a zombie invasion and all the computers failed and the sun went black...' type thinking from the Government, while passenger trains and public buildings such as museums still have no screening whatsoever, despite larger numbers of people congregating.
I have a hunch that DwhateverRS won't stop until all the fun and rational discretion are squeezed out of aviation.
Additionally, that was one jumpseater out of how many zillions since the dawn of aviation?
IMO there seems to be a serious lack of risk assessment and a serious surplus of 'what might happen, if there were a zombie invasion and all the computers failed and the sun went black...' type thinking from the Government, while passenger trains and public buildings such as museums still have no screening whatsoever, despite larger numbers of people congregating.
I have a hunch that DwhateverRS won't stop until all the fun and rational discretion are squeezed out of aviation.
Last edited by Worrals in the wilds; 31st May 2009 at 08:55. Reason: dodgy editing
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It is a good point you make karl. And the reality is that the industry is trying people's patience more and more so I guess you never know. But in that case what is to stop the person doing what they want on short final whilst in the seat?
Personally i think if they obseve the sterile cockpit policy then its a plus having them there.
Personally i think if they obseve the sterile cockpit policy then its a plus having them there.
Last edited by Mr. Hat; 31st May 2009 at 10:44. Reason: typing to fast...
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Warning: [rant mode on]
How many serious threats have been thwarted since the increased aviation security? For that matter, how many before 9/11? My guess is absolutely none, because we would have seen a congratulatory two page colour spread in the recent report. Sure, plenty of weapons have been removed from dodgy people, but that hardly justifies the increasing level of craziness as the pre 9/11 measures (with some tweaking) did this adequately. IMO violent drunks / spacked out druggies are a far more tangible risk to aviation, as hardly a month goes by without some violent dork being carted off a flight in chains by the AFP. So why not ban alcohol on flights, as the Indians do (rhetorical question, disarm your flamethrowers
)? Because the government is not serious about aviation security. It’s far less trouble to come up with inane regulations that only affect aviation staff, a disjointed and quiet minority.
Australia does not have a serious terrorist threat. It has a potential terrorist threat (as anyone does these days) but it’s nothing compared to Turkey, Spain or Northern Ireland. In those countries (I’ve been to two of them) people entering shopping centres are routinely scanned, fast trains and museums have X ray screening and so on. If DwhateverRS are so concerned about Threats, why have we seen none of this here? An airliner carries a maximum of 530 people (or whatever they can cram into the super guppy these days) plus casualties on the ground. My local Westfield has a food court with greater capacity than that, and an entrance you could drive a semitrailer packed with explosives through. Where is the risk mitigation there? Are people removing their shoes to gain entry?
The government keep banging on about aviation security while they make our working lives harder and more dismal, yet they are happy to leave screening to poorly trained, often subnormal contractors supplied by profit focused companies. If they were serious about aviation security they would have brought the whole sad mess back under government control on 9/12, but they didn’t, and they aren’t. They just make pedantic, crappy decisions from the ivory tower in Canberra.
Unfortunately, the sort of droids that join these departments (speaking as a reformed droid) can’t see the forest for the microscopic bark analysis. That’s all cool until a tree falls on their heads, when instead of removing it and buying a chainsaw they’ll commission yet another expensive 300 page report that proves nothing and goes nowhere.
)? Because the government is not serious about aviation security. It’s far less trouble to come up with inane regulations that only affect aviation staff, a disjointed and quiet minority. Australia does not have a serious terrorist threat. It has a potential terrorist threat (as anyone does these days) but it’s nothing compared to Turkey, Spain or Northern Ireland. In those countries (I’ve been to two of them) people entering shopping centres are routinely scanned, fast trains and museums have X ray screening and so on. If DwhateverRS are so concerned about Threats, why have we seen none of this here? An airliner carries a maximum of 530 people (or whatever they can cram into the super guppy these days) plus casualties on the ground. My local Westfield has a food court with greater capacity than that, and an entrance you could drive a semitrailer packed with explosives through. Where is the risk mitigation there? Are people removing their shoes to gain entry?
The government keep banging on about aviation security while they make our working lives harder and more dismal, yet they are happy to leave screening to poorly trained, often subnormal contractors supplied by profit focused companies. If they were serious about aviation security they would have brought the whole sad mess back under government control on 9/12, but they didn’t, and they aren’t. They just make pedantic, crappy decisions from the ivory tower in Canberra.
Unfortunately, the sort of droids that join these departments (speaking as a reformed droid) can’t see the forest for the microscopic bark analysis. That’s all cool until a tree falls on their heads, when instead of removing it and buying a chainsaw they’ll commission yet another expensive 300 page report that proves nothing and goes nowhere.
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A Flight Attendant visiting the flight deck for operational reasons could also go nuts in a similar fashion.
Personally i think if they obseve the sterile cockpit policy then its a plus having them there.
I think it fair to say that the most frustrating thing in the industry is the inconsistancies. In the USA you can, in Australia you can't. In Cairns you need to remove your aerosole cans for inspection, in Sydney you don't. In Australia you need to remove your laptop from your bag but you can lave the cables in. In Europe you need to remove the laptop and the cables and in USA you don't need to remove either. Flight crew need to get screened, ground crew don't.
My favourite however is for us Regional guys. If the first sector after an overnight is from an unsecured port (ie Wagga/Gladstone) after we have landed in Sydney/Brisbane, the pax disembarked, we are required to take our overnight bag only (flight bag can remain in the aircraft) and walk unsupervised across the apron into the terminal and through security before we can go back to our aircraft and operate the next sectors.
Last edited by Merlins Magic; 31st May 2009 at 23:52.
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What about the handful of pilots that have attempted suicide with the aid of said aircraft in the past?
I know, let's ban everyone from the flightdeck!!!
Just think of the weight saving! HUGE saving in greenhouse gas emissions! No need for an extra two crew meals! No troublesome techies to get in the way of cabin service! Everyone is happy and the world will be a better place!
Now why didn't one of those shiny pants people in Canberra think of that???
I know, let's ban everyone from the flightdeck!!!
Just think of the weight saving! HUGE saving in greenhouse gas emissions! No need for an extra two crew meals! No troublesome techies to get in the way of cabin service! Everyone is happy and the world will be a better place!
Now why didn't one of those shiny pants people in Canberra think of that???
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My favourite however is for us Regional guys. If the first sector after an overnight is from an unsecured port (ie Wagga/Gladstone) after we have landed in Sydney/Brisbane, the pax disembarked, we are required to take our overnight bag only (flight bag can remain in the aircraft) and walk unsupervised across the apron into the terminal and through security before we can go back to our aircraft and operate the next sectors.
That is even more stupid than a Wooden Barbeque..