Boeing P-8A Poseidon Successfully Completes 1st Flight (P3 replacement)
Thread Starter
RAAF officially joins the program
MOU Signed With USN for Development of P-8A Poseidon Aircraft
(May6, 2009) -- I am pleased to announce that Defence has taken the first steps in a $A5 billion project to acquire a manned Maritime Patrol and Response Aircraft by signing a Memorandum of Understanding (MoU) with the United States Navy (USN) to cooperatively develop upgrades to the P-8A Poseidon aircraft and support systems.
The manned aircraft, to be acquired under Project AIR7000 Phase 2, in conjunction with the Multi-mission Unmanned Aerial System, to be acquired under Project AIR 7000 Phase 1.
The P‑8A is a modern, highly reliable aircraft based on the commercially-proven Boeing B737, and modified to incorporate the latest maritime surveillance and attack capabilities.
Defence will collaborate in Spiral One, the first in a series of improvements planned through the life of the P-8A. Through participation in the P-8A Spiral One cooperative development program, Defence seeks to gain information on the P-8A to support the acquisition and through life support decisions, provide opportunities for Australian industry, and influence the direction of P-8A improvements.
The 2009 Defence White Paper detailed the Government's plans to acquire eight new maritime patrol aircraft to replace the capability currently provided by the AP-3C Orion aircraft, when that aircraft is retired in 2018 after 30‑years of RAAF service.
These new aircraft will provide a highly advanced surface search radar and optical, infra-red and electronic surveillance systems. With these systems, along with a high transit speed and the ability to conduct air- to- air refuelling, these aircraft will provide a superior capability for rapid area search and identification tasks. They will also provide a highly advanced anti- submarine warfare capability, including the ability to engage submarines using air- launched torpedoes.
Source : MoD Australia
(May6, 2009) -- I am pleased to announce that Defence has taken the first steps in a $A5 billion project to acquire a manned Maritime Patrol and Response Aircraft by signing a Memorandum of Understanding (MoU) with the United States Navy (USN) to cooperatively develop upgrades to the P-8A Poseidon aircraft and support systems.
The manned aircraft, to be acquired under Project AIR7000 Phase 2, in conjunction with the Multi-mission Unmanned Aerial System, to be acquired under Project AIR 7000 Phase 1.
The P‑8A is a modern, highly reliable aircraft based on the commercially-proven Boeing B737, and modified to incorporate the latest maritime surveillance and attack capabilities.
Defence will collaborate in Spiral One, the first in a series of improvements planned through the life of the P-8A. Through participation in the P-8A Spiral One cooperative development program, Defence seeks to gain information on the P-8A to support the acquisition and through life support decisions, provide opportunities for Australian industry, and influence the direction of P-8A improvements.
The 2009 Defence White Paper detailed the Government's plans to acquire eight new maritime patrol aircraft to replace the capability currently provided by the AP-3C Orion aircraft, when that aircraft is retired in 2018 after 30‑years of RAAF service.
These new aircraft will provide a highly advanced surface search radar and optical, infra-red and electronic surveillance systems. With these systems, along with a high transit speed and the ability to conduct air- to- air refuelling, these aircraft will provide a superior capability for rapid area search and identification tasks. They will also provide a highly advanced anti- submarine warfare capability, including the ability to engage submarines using air- launched torpedoes.
Source : MoD Australia
Thread Starter
Boeing Unveils US Navy Paint Scheme for P-8A Poseidon
(Seattle, May 5, 2009) -- The first painted P-8A Poseidon aircraft rolls out of the paint hangar at Boeing's [NYSE: BA] Renton, Wash., facility, displaying its new U.S. Navy livery. The aircraft, designated T-2, is the third of five test aircraft being assembled and tested as part of the System Development and Demonstration contract that Boeing received in 2004.
The first test aircraft, T-1, which successfully completed the program's first flight on April 25, will be painted in the same gray paint scheme later this summer. T-2 was painted in late April.
The Navy plans to purchase 108 P-8A anti-submarine warfare aircraft to replace its fleet of P-3Cs. Initial operational capability is planned for 2013. The P-8A is built by a Boeing-led industry team that includes CFM International, Northrop Grumman, Raytheon, Spirit AeroSystems and GE Aviation.
Company Center : The Boeing Company (NYSE: BA)
US Navy is not known fo having "sexy" paint schemes.
Agony, I understand that the P-8A has the extra fuel capacity of the BBJ but that would still make less endurance than the P-3. I believe that new technology ASW & Surveillance sensors will mean the P-8A will not do much low level operations so that should result in better endurance. I still think that the P-3 is the best airframe.
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Errr...
I can't think of any way AT ALL that this P-8 airplane can come close to the overall performance and crew comfort attributes of a Lockheed P3C.
Even the -800 is very limited in internal space, and the flight deck, well, thats just a joke for long endurance flying.
The 737 flight deck was designed for inter-city short hops type of flying, and now look at what they're expecting the flight crew to do!
Additionally, with the weapons bay aft of the CoG, how much weight do you think will be able to be carried there?
For my money, and I have well over 5,500 hours operating P3s, this is not the replacement the crews are looking for!
The only advantage it's got is a higher cruising altitude capability, and with that weather radar (fwd looking only), what do they think it's going to see?
No wonder they pulled out the MAD gear, that's not much good doing a MAD run at 5,000 feet!
...and I haven't even mentioned the lack of a Flight Engineer...
More P3s, is the way to go!
Cheers...FD...
I can't think of any way AT ALL that this P-8 airplane can come close to the overall performance and crew comfort attributes of a Lockheed P3C.
Even the -800 is very limited in internal space, and the flight deck, well, thats just a joke for long endurance flying.
The 737 flight deck was designed for inter-city short hops type of flying, and now look at what they're expecting the flight crew to do!
Additionally, with the weapons bay aft of the CoG, how much weight do you think will be able to be carried there?
For my money, and I have well over 5,500 hours operating P3s, this is not the replacement the crews are looking for!
The only advantage it's got is a higher cruising altitude capability, and with that weather radar (fwd looking only), what do they think it's going to see?
No wonder they pulled out the MAD gear, that's not much good doing a MAD run at 5,000 feet!
...and I haven't even mentioned the lack of a Flight Engineer...
More P3s, is the way to go!
Cheers...FD...
Thread Starter
Yeah Tailly, it's a direct quote (asd.com) - they're just like other journos.
Instead of blended winglets, it's fitted with raked wing tips (also fitted to B767-400, B777-200LR, B777-300ER, B787, B747-8) which are just as effective in reducing vortex drag but also increase effective wing area. The resultant increase in wing flexing is normally compensated by slightly increasing the thickness of the wing skins in the some areas.
Instead of blended winglets, it's fitted with raked wing tips (also fitted to B767-400, B777-200LR, B777-300ER, B787, B747-8) which are just as effective in reducing vortex drag but also increase effective wing area. The resultant increase in wing flexing is normally compensated by slightly increasing the thickness of the wing skins in the some areas.
Thread Starter
Instead of P-8A's, why not do another P3-C refurbishment?
LM Delivers 1st Set Of P-3 Orion New Production Wings To Norway
(Marietta, Ga, September 29, 2009) -- Lockheed Martin [NYSE: LMT] delivered the first set of new production P-3 Orion wings to the company's launch customer, the Royal Norwegian Air Force, on Sept. 25. The milestone delivery ushers in a new era of P-3 life cycle sustainment.
"These new wings take Lockheed Martin's long-standing commitment to the sustainment and support of the P-3 Orion to the next level," said Ray Burick, Lockheed Martin P-3/S-3 Programs vice president. "Working with our many P-3 customer operators worldwide, we identified a coming need to replace P-3 wings. We established the P-3 wing production line to meet that need and to ensure that our customers' P-3s are patrolling the skies for decades to come. We're proud to announce that our customers, beginning with the Royal Norwegian Air Force (RNoAF), will begin to reap the benefits of those efforts."
The new production wings are the cornerstone of Lockheed Martin's P-3 Aircraft Service Life Extension Program (ASLEP). ASLEP replaces the outer wings, center wing lower surface assembly, horizontal stabilizer, wing and horizontal stabilizer leading edges and various filet fairings. All necessary fatigue-life limiting structures are replaced, leading to significantly reduced maintenance and sustainment costs. New alloys are employed that provide a fivefold increase in corrosion resistance. ASLEP is the only solution that removes all current airframe flight restrictions on the P-3.
The RNoAF will receive six life extension kits, two conditional kits and engineering support under the contract. Other ASLEP customers to date include U.S. Customs & Border Protection, Canada and Taiwan. Additionally, the U.S. Navy has contracted with Lockheed Martin for 13 sets of P-3 outer wings.
"Lockheed Martin is committed to the complete life cycle sustainment of its aircraft, and our total range of P-3 support capabilities epitomizes that commitment," said Rob Weiss, Lockheed Martin Global Sustainment executive vice president. "Once the Norwegian P-3s are fitted with these new wings and the accompanying ASLEP components, the RNoAF will be able to execute their maritime patrol missions with confidence well into the future."
Source : Lockheed Martin Corporation (NYSE: LMT)
(Marietta, Ga, September 29, 2009) -- Lockheed Martin [NYSE: LMT] delivered the first set of new production P-3 Orion wings to the company's launch customer, the Royal Norwegian Air Force, on Sept. 25. The milestone delivery ushers in a new era of P-3 life cycle sustainment.
"These new wings take Lockheed Martin's long-standing commitment to the sustainment and support of the P-3 Orion to the next level," said Ray Burick, Lockheed Martin P-3/S-3 Programs vice president. "Working with our many P-3 customer operators worldwide, we identified a coming need to replace P-3 wings. We established the P-3 wing production line to meet that need and to ensure that our customers' P-3s are patrolling the skies for decades to come. We're proud to announce that our customers, beginning with the Royal Norwegian Air Force (RNoAF), will begin to reap the benefits of those efforts."
The new production wings are the cornerstone of Lockheed Martin's P-3 Aircraft Service Life Extension Program (ASLEP). ASLEP replaces the outer wings, center wing lower surface assembly, horizontal stabilizer, wing and horizontal stabilizer leading edges and various filet fairings. All necessary fatigue-life limiting structures are replaced, leading to significantly reduced maintenance and sustainment costs. New alloys are employed that provide a fivefold increase in corrosion resistance. ASLEP is the only solution that removes all current airframe flight restrictions on the P-3.
The RNoAF will receive six life extension kits, two conditional kits and engineering support under the contract. Other ASLEP customers to date include U.S. Customs & Border Protection, Canada and Taiwan. Additionally, the U.S. Navy has contracted with Lockheed Martin for 13 sets of P-3 outer wings.
"Lockheed Martin is committed to the complete life cycle sustainment of its aircraft, and our total range of P-3 support capabilities epitomizes that commitment," said Rob Weiss, Lockheed Martin Global Sustainment executive vice president. "Once the Norwegian P-3s are fitted with these new wings and the accompanying ASLEP components, the RNoAF will be able to execute their maritime patrol missions with confidence well into the future."
Source : Lockheed Martin Corporation (NYSE: LMT)
Thread Starter
New Submarine Technologies Spur Growth in Airborne ASW Market
(Newtown, Conn., October 2, 2009) -- According to Forecast International's annual review of the market for airborne anti-submarine warfare (ASW) sensors, the next 10 years will see production of more than 199,000 systems valued at $6.1 billion. This growth in the airborne ASW sensor market reflects the fact that aircraft remain the most mobile, flexible, and cost-effective ASW systems available to the world's navies. Despite economic doubts and uncertainties sur-rounding the defense industry in the first decade of the 21st century, aircraft continue to be the most dangerous adversary faced by a submarine fleet.
"Airborne ASW systems are likely to be the first line of defense against any major submarine threat over the next decade," said Stuart Slade, senior naval editor at Forecast International. For that reason, the research and development funding that accounts for nearly half of this sector's fiscal value is of critical importance for the future of the market as a whole.
In the analysis, Slade notes the dynamic nature of this market sector's technology, which is revolutionizing submarines: the introduction of air-independent propulsion for diesel-electric submarines; new weapons and sensor technologies; new silencing techniques; and, perhaps most significantly, the widespread introduction of unmanned underwater vehicles for more hazardous duties. Silencing techniques, originally designed for nuclear boats, have made the latest diesel-electric designs remarkably quiet.
At the same time, ASW detection technology has also advanced. Computers continue to increase their processing speed, allowing data to be handled more quickly and accurately. The advanced technology allows more accurate detection of the source of a sound, providing the ability to disentangle the slight and transient sounds made by a submarine from the sea's background noises. Improving datalinks and information dissemination means that target data can get from the spotter to the shooter with minimum delay.
Sonobuoys still represent 99.4 percent of the airborne ASW market, with the sale of 198,046 units projected over the next 10 years. Yet, in terms of value of production, these units represent only $212.35 million, or 3.50 percent of the market. The average cost of the units in this category is about $1,000, stressing the very low-cost/high-volume aspect of this segment. Sales of radar sets optimized for periscope and snort detection, and electronic support measures (ESM) equipment designed to localize radar and communications transmissions from subma-rines and dipping sonars, are expected to total 1,119 units over the next 10 years, valued at $5.84 billion, for a unit cost of $5.226 million.
The airborne ASW sector has only eight major corporate participants. Leading the segment is Raytheon, which is expected to achieve sales of $1.9 billion (31.51 percent market share) over the next 10 years. The Telephonics Division of Griffon Corp follows, with a projected 10-year sales value of $559 million (9.22 percent market share). L‑3 Communications holds third place, with projected sales of $300 million (4.95 percent).
These companies have maintained their position by exploiting new technologies and materials to increase equipment reliability and performance while lowering life-cycle costs, crucial qualities among the military services.
Source : Forecast International Inc.
"Airborne ASW systems are likely to be the first line of defense against any major submarine threat over the next decade," said Stuart Slade, senior naval editor at Forecast International. For that reason, the research and development funding that accounts for nearly half of this sector's fiscal value is of critical importance for the future of the market as a whole.
In the analysis, Slade notes the dynamic nature of this market sector's technology, which is revolutionizing submarines: the introduction of air-independent propulsion for diesel-electric submarines; new weapons and sensor technologies; new silencing techniques; and, perhaps most significantly, the widespread introduction of unmanned underwater vehicles for more hazardous duties. Silencing techniques, originally designed for nuclear boats, have made the latest diesel-electric designs remarkably quiet.
At the same time, ASW detection technology has also advanced. Computers continue to increase their processing speed, allowing data to be handled more quickly and accurately. The advanced technology allows more accurate detection of the source of a sound, providing the ability to disentangle the slight and transient sounds made by a submarine from the sea's background noises. Improving datalinks and information dissemination means that target data can get from the spotter to the shooter with minimum delay.
Sonobuoys still represent 99.4 percent of the airborne ASW market, with the sale of 198,046 units projected over the next 10 years. Yet, in terms of value of production, these units represent only $212.35 million, or 3.50 percent of the market. The average cost of the units in this category is about $1,000, stressing the very low-cost/high-volume aspect of this segment. Sales of radar sets optimized for periscope and snort detection, and electronic support measures (ESM) equipment designed to localize radar and communications transmissions from subma-rines and dipping sonars, are expected to total 1,119 units over the next 10 years, valued at $5.84 billion, for a unit cost of $5.226 million.
The airborne ASW sector has only eight major corporate participants. Leading the segment is Raytheon, which is expected to achieve sales of $1.9 billion (31.51 percent market share) over the next 10 years. The Telephonics Division of Griffon Corp follows, with a projected 10-year sales value of $559 million (9.22 percent market share). L‑3 Communications holds third place, with projected sales of $300 million (4.95 percent).
These companies have maintained their position by exploiting new technologies and materials to increase equipment reliability and performance while lowering life-cycle costs, crucial qualities among the military services.
Source : Forecast International Inc.
Nunc est bibendum
Strewth GB, the new wings for the P3 makes it sound like the old analogy of the farmers axe. He's had it for four decades and only changed the head three times and the handle five!
Thread Starter
Yeah Keg, I knew that I was stretching things a bit when I suggested another refurbishment, but as everyone knows (except the USN Brass), the P3 is a vastly superior airframe to the B737/P8-A, which is why the Norwegians are doing the wing mods. Fit the P8-A avionics into the P3 and you'll have a great LRMP.
The USN isn't stupid when it comes to selecting platforms and weapons for their sailors to use for force projection or to wage war with.
If the P-8A doesn't hack the mission, it will be kicked well and truly out of play.
Political pressure impinges upon many decisions that the Military must take, but in the end, only demonstrated mission capability wins the contract.
Operational Evaluation trials will tell the story. Watch this space...
If the P-8A doesn't hack the mission, it will be kicked well and truly out of play.
Political pressure impinges upon many decisions that the Military must take, but in the end, only demonstrated mission capability wins the contract.
Operational Evaluation trials will tell the story. Watch this space...
The Kawasaki seems to have similar performance but its' armament capability seems to be far superior to the P-8A?
Kawasaki P-1 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
P-8 Poseidon - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Kawasaki P-1 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
P-8 Poseidon - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Hi "Going Boeing".....
Just thought I would correct an error in your post of 7th May. (#21)
You mentioned...
"....the AP-3C Orion aircraft, when that aircraft is retired in 2018 after 30‑years of RAAF service."
Wrong...
The initial delivery of the first P3Cs, 751 thru 760 was started in 1978 via training with VP-31 at NAS Moffet Field near San Francisco. I was there doing the transition training and acceptance test flying and delivery of 754 and 760!
That makes it 40 years service in 2018.
And, the 40 years service of the P3 in the RAAF (in 2008) was from the initial delivery of the P3Bs in 1968.
Although I wasn't there for that delivery into service, I did do my initial flight training and qualification on the P3B!
Can't understand why they don't retain the P3Cs, all those resources spent upgrading and operating them, they seem to be significantly better suited than any turbojet, 737 or any other!
Cheers...FD...
Just thought I would correct an error in your post of 7th May. (#21)
You mentioned...
"....the AP-3C Orion aircraft, when that aircraft is retired in 2018 after 30‑years of RAAF service."
Wrong...
The initial delivery of the first P3Cs, 751 thru 760 was started in 1978 via training with VP-31 at NAS Moffet Field near San Francisco. I was there doing the transition training and acceptance test flying and delivery of 754 and 760!
That makes it 40 years service in 2018.
And, the 40 years service of the P3 in the RAAF (in 2008) was from the initial delivery of the P3Bs in 1968.
Although I wasn't there for that delivery into service, I did do my initial flight training and qualification on the P3B!
Can't understand why they don't retain the P3Cs, all those resources spent upgrading and operating them, they seem to be significantly better suited than any turbojet, 737 or any other!
Cheers...FD...
Thread Starter
FD, thanks for the correction. I just copied the article from ASD.com without any changes so I'll blame the Maths error on the original journo.
At the time you were taking delivery of 754, I was with the squadron on the other side of the brick sh1thouse.
GB
At the time you were taking delivery of 754, I was with the squadron on the other side of the brick sh1thouse.
GB
Thread Starter
LM Delivers 1st Set Of US CBP P-3 Orion New Production Wings
The new production wings are the cornerstone of the Aircraft Service Life Extension Program
(Marietta, Ga., November 18, 2009) -- Lockheed Martin [NYSE: LMT] and U.S. Customs & Border Protection (CBP) officials marked the delivery of the first CBP set of new production P-3 Orion wings from the company's Marietta, Ga., production facility today.
The new production wings are the cornerstone of the Aircraft Service Life Extension Program (ASLEP) which provides an industry-unique solution in keeping the world's P-3 fleets operational. P-3 operators selecting ASLEP will benefit from an additional 15,000+ flight hours per updated aircraft, extending the P-3's service life 20-25 years.
"Lockheed Martin is extremely proud of its strong partnership with our Customs & Border Protection customer," said Ray Burick, Lockheed Martin P-3/S-3 Programs vice president. "The CBP P-3 mission is truly unique, and vital to our nation's homeland security initiatives. We are honored to play a role in supporting CBP."
Under ASLEP, P-3 outer wings, center wing lower surface assembly, horizontal stabilizer, wing and horizontal stabilizer leading edges and various filet fairings are replaced. All necessary fatigue-life limiting structures are replaced, and new alloys are employed that provide a fivefold increase in corrosion resistance. ASLEP removes all current airframe flight restrictions on the P-3.
In April 2008, CBP contracted with Lockheed Martin under the P-3 Aircraft Service Life Extension Program (ASLEP), ordering up to 14 all-new production wing life extension kits. To-date, CBP has placed firm orders for six life extension kits. Other ASLEP customers to date include Canada and Taiwan. The U.S. Navy has contracted with Lockheed Martin for 13 sets of P-3 outer wings.
Source : Lockheed Martin Corporation (NYSE: LMT)
Some of the U.S. Customs & Border Protection (CBP) aircraft are ex RAAF P3-B's that were traded in for more P-3C's in the mid 1980's. They date back to circa 1968.
How many P-8A will Australia be ordering. From memory we have 18 P-3C but I expect the number crunchers will reduce the fleet size due to the fact that we don't need coastal protection resources!!!