What does our qualification earns for us? ...

[Kev9]

To farking many

[Darkrampage]

Something else to keep in mind. Government grants for everything up to and including your CPL came in this year at my Uni.

To be honest if you ask most of the people in my course they simply say they are in it for the money, to which I quietly laugh at in my head. I am in it for the flying, not the money, I left an IT degree to do my Aviation degree and I can assure you the money would have been better

Another thing to think of, numbers for my Uni course have always been around the 20 student mark yearly. This year when the government funding came in this spiked up to 60. While there are a few people like me who wanted to do it 3 years ago when I left school but couldn't afford the flying, there are a lot who are in it for all the wrong reasons, and are going to be severely disappointed.

My first post and 2c

[GADRIVR]

This makes me giggle....." oh why oh why I do have such miserable conditions?" I hear you cry!!
Well heres the short answer.
1. The job is a dream job for the vast majority......ergo operators will take advantage of that pool of .....talent?....
2. No effective pilots union. AIPA vs JPC vs AFAP etc.
3. Little or no regulation when it comes to sausage factories churning out pilots......don't know what to do with that one though....CASA perhaps?!
The rest is just noise.
My average salary over 4 years worked out to about 30K pa in aviation. I copped it sweet thinking it would lead onto better things.....guess what?....nope....it doesn't get better...at all.
So...I go onto something else and the tradeoff for doing a job I DON"T love is money...2-3 times what a Qantas skipper earns.
Thats why other industries pay far more....because the people don't want to be there...me included.
So me old beans..to summarise;
1. Its a **** industry overall in terms of standard of employee conditions.
2. It's an industry that rises and falls in direct correllation to what happening in the local and worlwide economy.
3. If you the pilot body want to do something about your conditions, get onto the TWA or something similiar...the pilots unions collectively have proven to be ineffectual at best.
4. Get a better paid job and fly for fun if all else fails.

[The Professor]

"While there is no government regulation on how many CPL numbers are churned out by flying schools, it will always be the same."

Wow, we have a communist amongst us. Are you really suggesting that in a market driven economy that gives you ipods and laptops, that it is the Governments role to step in and impose labor regulation in order to artificially boost your income level? In the name of fairness and consistency, should the Government impose such regulation in ALL markets. Are you really prepared to pay more for your car, house, food etc?

[Arnold E]

Just as a matter of interest. the school in Adelaide that caters for aviation engieering students, wont take on students if there is no expectation that the graduates will get a job. This prevents people spending large amounts of money without the expectation of getting a job (i.e. return on investment) I believe that this is a responsible attitude of an educational institution and has nothing whatsoever to do with being communist or capatilist. I am glad that this was the case when my son did the course and has since found no problems finding well paid employment. On the other hand, there are plenty of pilots around the same age that are either not employed or under employed. I look at this from both sides of the fence, I am a CPL and my son also flies (PPL).

[Worrals in the wilds]

Arnold E, this attitude is all too rare (and very honourable).

Before aviation, I worked in the entertainment industry where there are many "acting" academies and "modelling" agencies that are all too keen to scam money from eager, naive wannabes by promising them skills and employment that they can never attain.

The same scurrilous attitude seems to have infected aviation, where some schools foster false hope of employment among young and naive hopefuls.

Unfortunately, in a free market economy, caveat emptor (let the buyer beware) is the overriding philosophy.

Flying (and acting, and modelling) is a dream job for many young people, and the naive among them will always be preyed upon by sharks. Equally, as 'dream' jobs, the market price for employees will always be less than that for people willing to deal with sewerage, accounts, computers et al.

There are people who succeed in entertainment (Logie night, after all ) and people who succeed in aviation, but rarely, if ever, was renumeration their prime motive.

[Arnold E]

Well Worrell, we are almost travelling down the same road, however I dont think that being well paid for what you do is a "crime", hence my agreement with the engineering school only taking enough students to satisfy demand. Maybe the rot set in when I did my licence, my ground schooling in those days cost me bugger all. It was done through TAFE and in those days it cost next to nothing ( a few dollars for photocopying as I recall). From there, flying was cheap even if you take in to account inflation. So what happened? well there was a heap of pilots produced all competing against one another and they are still there ,(look at the ages of a lot of guys on this forum) so you were never going to get rich flying aeroplanes for a living unless it was for QANTAS (in my day). I am not realy sure what I am saying, but it is a case of supply and demand.( I like adding these little smiley faces)

[Charliethewonderdog]

Because Pilots are the most useless F$%^kwits in the work place.

We are the most unprofessional employees in the work force.... Selfish... Egotistic.... 80% of us are Wnakers who just want to fly the shiney jet and will back stab...stand over... pay for endorsements...undermine fellow workers... their own profession... Just so they can walk around having the warm fuzzy feeling " Hay I'm a Pilot"... We would work for the same money as a Coles employee if it ment we could were a Pilots Uniform and sit up front of a jet... Hang-on there are some of us who do... VA joke... Emb Virgin Joke... REX Joke... etc...

As soon as we get out of GA we leave it behind as bad memory... "not my fault that I had to undermine the industry to get where I am now. Thank God I am so F$%KING good now I'm flying a Jet now".
Having little regard to GA has caused the problems in the Regionals and the majors... Cathay haven't had a Payrise for 8 years... Qantas have to fight for CPI... VirginBlue are still getting paid what Ansett drivers got 15 years ago...etc...etc... A bus Driver can earns more...Not to mention Truck Drivers... who actually have balls.. we just sit back polishing our nobs..

Pure and simply we are as weak as pi$$.

The reality is those conditions that us Wnakers put up with in GA has followed us up the chain... Now the top of the tree is littered with the filth from GA... Gone are the days when being a pilot was a highly regarded and respected job...

WE HAVE TO BE PREPARED TO LOSE OUR JOBS FOR OUR JOBS TO GET BETTER.....

We need to actively educate GA and Pilot Instructors to not work for less than the GA Award.

Then we need to lobby The AFAP to increase this Award.

Being a Pilot has become alot more expensive in the last 10-15 years... yet nothing has been added to the Award to compensate..

Things like Documents, Medical, ASIC requirements, Security checks, etc....etc....have increased dramatically... yet the GA award has never been adjusted for that...
Also the GA award never gets adequately for CPI.

I also would like to know WHY the AFAP are the Guardians for the GA award yet do so little for the industry at the bottom...
SURELY it is clear this is where the problems at the top have generated from...

[Arnold E]

Charlie

I think that was what I wanted to say, all be it, in a somewhat less agressive maner

[Charliethewonderdog]

Wow, we have a communist amongst us. Are you really suggesting that in a market driven economy that gives you ipods and laptops, that it is the Governments role to step in and impose labor regulation in order to artificially boost your income level? In the name of fairness and consistency, should the Government impose such regulation in ALL markets. Are you really prepared to pay more for your car, house, food etc?

Well they do in other industries.... Docters as example 1. But with a name like The Professor you would know that.

We dont need to regulate how many positions there are, I'm happy for the market to dictate that but we need to regulate the terms of those positions.

The time that Employers have the absolute say in what we are worth should end, all I want is to be paid what I'm worth and for it to be increased as the cost of living increases, but more importantly I want to have a stronger say in what I'm worth. The AFAP has failed miserably in up holding pilots conditions. Ever since the Award was tabled, conditions have dropped steadily every year.... to prove this simple compare the award to the average wage from the mid 80's.

As Professionals we should be able to negotiate our minimum standards. Not just for pay, but for other conditions as well.... the only thing that has happened recently is a decline in conditions, which as a collective group of workers we have watched happen.

Having a stronger Union presence is paramount, but educating the grass roots is where we need to attack the problem... making pilots understand that they are starting in an industry that they will be in for 30 years and that they should have pride in place of work and demand better conditions with out selling them selves short....

I know I'm talking fairy land stuff...... but it amazes me that people cant see that the problem CAN be fixed, but it needs to start in GA...

[Splitpin44]

Well said Charlie! I particularly agree with Bus Drivers having huge balls! Who the hell would want to drive thousands of kilometres with no Autopilot and with traffic wizzing past you only about 2 metres away!! Those boys should be paid more!

[The Professor]

"Well they do in other industries.... Docters as example"

The medical profession is a wonderful example of what happens when you artificially limit the number of entrants. Perhaps you should have attended medical school instead.

"The time that Employers have the absolute say in what we are worth should end"

Employers do not have absolute say in what you are worth otherwise you would not be rewarded at all. The market has finally found its voice thanks to the removal of barriers such as airline regulation and the labor market duopoly that existed for decades. Pilot pay is now more closely aligned with their "worth" than ever before.

"As Professionals we should be able to negotiate our minimum standards"

You do. If you don't like the standards that the market has set, you move to another industry. Its capitalism my friend.

[bushy]

Multicrew licence??

It is convenient for the major airlines to have hundreds, or thousands of wannabie airline pilots cooling their heels in GA so they have a cheap supply if they ever need them. And, it seems, our rubbery rules are interpereted so they can get what they want.
This may appear to be good for the major airlines (is it eally?) but it is disastrous for GA, and the GA pilots.
Would our major airlines be happy to always have captains with one year and 600 hours of flying experience? Would our regulator like that? Would the passengers like that? But it is considered ok for GA and with the present system it will never change. Apparently GA passengers are not considered to be very. important, and GA flying is considered easy.
With our present system GA will always have to operate with inexperienced, poorly paid (sometimes desperate) pilots. This is caused by the flood of enthusiastic young wannabies who seem to be happy to work for next to nothing, and lots of flying schools that encourage them. Somewhere the trainees often get unrealistic expectations and expect large incomes in the first years. The flood of wannabies and ICUS buyers prevents that from happening.
So how can this be fixed. The multicrew licence can be a big help here. It will take a while to get going properly, but If a multi crew licence was needed to fly multi crew aircraft then that would split the flood in two, and identify who was going for airlines and who was a career GA pilot.
And would be airline pilots could do appropriate training with an airline training organisation/cadetship. Airlines should take some responsibility for training their new pilots. That way they can predict how many they will have. And they should own some regional airlines to give their cadets experience that they can supervise. Airline pilots should be required to have multi crew simulator time instead of single pilot GA time.
It is obscene the way our airlines and flying schools rape our GA and the new pilots. And it is one of the reasons why our GA has poor standards and a too high accident rate.
GA is very important and deserves better than this. So do our pilots and operators.
But our coastal dwelling regulators do not seem to know this. Or Care.

[Mr. Hat]

To be honest if you ask most of the people in my course they simply say they are in it for the money,

Another thing to think of, numbers for my Uni course have always been around the 20 student mark yearly. This year when the government funding came in this spiked up to 60. While there are a few people like me who wanted to do it 3 years ago when I left school but couldn't afford the flying, there are a lot who are in it for all the wrong reasons, and are going to be severely disappointed.

Mate, they will indeed get a wonderful shock! Don't worry about the numbers increasing to 60. The majority can't pluck the guts up to pack the car anyway when push comes to shove. Just a gold mine for the govt and flying schools.

Wow, we have a communist amongst us. Are you really suggesting that in a market driven economy that gives you ipods and laptops, that it is the Governments role to step in and impose labor regulation in order to artificially boost your income level?

No but let me tell you sharing the CTAF or a cockpit with people that are just giving it a bash for the hell of it will get difficult as time goes on. The good thing about the cost filter is that it filtered out people that didn't reallywant to do it.

You do. If you don't like the standards that the market has set, you move to another industry. Its capitalism my friend.

Spot on. Only most just move jobs and take their skills elsewhere.