Merged: PelAir jobs gone....
Well with all due respect, and please take this in the spirit it's given, a wake-up call to all pilots is probably in order.
I think it's safe to say that if the current economic crisis continues, more jobs across the industry may go. I would want to be damn sure I knew where I stood. If any of you guys are dismissed inapropriately, you had better fight for your rights, because management certainly won't!
Other jobs won't be as plentiful either, at least in the medium/short term.
I think it's safe to say that if the current economic crisis continues, more jobs across the industry may go. I would want to be damn sure I knew where I stood. If any of you guys are dismissed inapropriately, you had better fight for your rights, because management certainly won't!
Other jobs won't be as plentiful either, at least in the medium/short term.
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I worked for pel air in the golden years, with K.B, D.V S.L M.B and the crew. What a sad end to a company that treated you like s**t but you made so many friends at. it will be good to catch up this week end with andre and the team
We used to use one of the 23's on freight a year or so ago, but it was not often used and then it disappeared completely for a long time. It (well, a different one) arrived back a while ago in passenger-only trim, and that's the way it now stays.
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How does a downturn in freight income that then necessitates redundancies translate into being treated like sh*t by management and why is it shame on management? Hasn't management acted wisely and properly and taken action to maintain the business and everyone else's job rather then let the company fold, like other recent regionals? I'm also struggling to understand why length of service should take priority over merit when determining redundancies. And yes, merit based redundancies are perfectly legal and the preferred option to keep a business viable and people employed. Seniority based redundancies are open to legal challenge on discrimination grounds.
Every now and then some D!ckhead raises his/her ugly head with this self serving drivel!
So what's merit 'other guy? Who can "suck" the hardest!!!
Every one of the retrenched (or soon to be) Pelair pilots have 100% proper merit. If they didn't, then they would have been dismissed for either incompetance or improper behaviour before now, as would we all. Are you saying that those who have lost their jobs are somehow inferior to their more junior collegues if they are to be laid off outside of seniority?
Great first post. My guess is, you are either Management, or a management stooge.
So what's merit 'other guy? Who can "suck" the hardest!!!
Every one of the retrenched (or soon to be) Pelair pilots have 100% proper merit. If they didn't, then they would have been dismissed for either incompetance or improper behaviour before now, as would we all. Are you saying that those who have lost their jobs are somehow inferior to their more junior collegues if they are to be laid off outside of seniority?
Great first post. My guess is, you are either Management, or a management stooge.
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"...Pelair pilots have 100% proper merit." What an intelligent, articulate statement! You are clearly a disaffected, marginal hack who has been overlooked many times. What experience or qualification do you have in management or business? Clearly none, however you want to think of yourself as a giant of commercial acumen. "If they didn't, then they would have been dismissed for either incompetance or improper behaviour before now, as would we all." This is breathtaking in its ignorance however typical of a performance bottom dweller who uses seniority as a protection against performance management. It's lucky that spelling is not a pilot license requirement. Are you seriously wanting this forum to believe that there is a direct linear correlation between experience and merit and that there is not one pilot with less experience who is better than one with more experience? Idiot.
So what exactly does your performance management entail?!? Clearly you know bugger all about flightcrew performance and assessment in a professional organization. No one is suggesting that there is a direct linear correlation between experience and merit but seniority systems were brought for very good reasons and those reasons remain. If you don't know what they are then you are the idiot. 2 posts have revealed that you actually know SFA about Flight crew and flight ops generally - going well champ. 
Please explain what this "merit" is that you speak of and how it would be applied fairly to a large pilot body. As far as i've seen seniority still is the fairest way of sorting out issues in the pilot body to date such as command & base bidding and retrenchment. If a pilot underperforms to the extent it is a problem he is removed from the company either by failure of a line check/sim or disciplinary action. Merit based systems are open to far more corruption as an individual is usually responsible for selection and performance based results can be biased to favour certain outcomes. Under a merit system an underperformer can achieve a certain position and choose to surround himself with friends (good or bad).
Without seniority and given how companies don't seem to care much for experience these days the fact that a 10 year pilot is paid 10-15% more than a first year might mean they are targeted for cost cutting etc...fine if your a new junior pilot with ambition for the short term but in the long term it will repeat every time the company gets top heavy.
Without seniority and given how companies don't seem to care much for experience these days the fact that a 10 year pilot is paid 10-15% more than a first year might mean they are targeted for cost cutting etc...fine if your a new junior pilot with ambition for the short term but in the long term it will repeat every time the company gets top heavy.
Hello All,
Well I believe that in a certain case with Pelair, that seniority doesn't really work and is quite wrong in it's intent.
Note: All of the below is from second hand info. Will gladly take corrections, just not abuse.
Take the case of the six (junior in seniority) pilots that when offerred, volunteered for the SAAB, with a Mackay or Townsville base, while other more senior pilots didn't take the opportunity. Now that it has become desperate, the more senior pilots seem more 'enthusiastic' about Mackay and Townsville.
End result, out of the six who volunteered and did the SAAB ground school, I believe over half have been made redundant. So in this respect, seniority is absolutely ridiculous.
Straight home and don't spare the horses
Well I believe that in a certain case with Pelair, that seniority doesn't really work and is quite wrong in it's intent.
Note: All of the below is from second hand info. Will gladly take corrections, just not abuse.
Take the case of the six (junior in seniority) pilots that when offerred, volunteered for the SAAB, with a Mackay or Townsville base, while other more senior pilots didn't take the opportunity. Now that it has become desperate, the more senior pilots seem more 'enthusiastic' about Mackay and Townsville.
End result, out of the six who volunteered and did the SAAB ground school, I believe over half have been made redundant. So in this respect, seniority is absolutely ridiculous.
Straight home and don't spare the horses
Crikey 'other guy, I thought you would slink back to where you came from after your first post, but it seems you have the balls (or the lack of good common sense) to swing back!
Be carefull about getting too personal. I admit I started the ball rolling by calling you a D!ckhead, but it was based on what you said. Your response only serves to strengthen that belief. Your attack on me professionally has absolutely no basis as these are anonymous forums, and I could be anyone! They do you no justice at all.
By all means though, continue with your appreciation of how a merit system would operate, especially in the current situation with Pelair (after all, that's what this thread is all about). Is such a system being applied here? Are the Pelair pilots being laid off because of substandard performance? Is seniority being "strictly" applied, or isn't it?
You're the man with the answers. The forum awaits
Be carefull about getting too personal. I admit I started the ball rolling by calling you a D!ckhead, but it was based on what you said. Your response only serves to strengthen that belief. Your attack on me professionally has absolutely no basis as these are anonymous forums, and I could be anyone! They do you no justice at all.
By all means though, continue with your appreciation of how a merit system would operate, especially in the current situation with Pelair (after all, that's what this thread is all about). Is such a system being applied here? Are the Pelair pilots being laid off because of substandard performance? Is seniority being "strictly" applied, or isn't it?
You're the man with the answers. The forum awaits
Gidday HomeJames.
Some aviation companies apply redundancies outside of overall seniority if it involves the reduction or liquidation of one aircraft type over another. The company I work for also offers base protection, so that a more senior pilot cannot displace a junior one from his/her home base as a consequence of normal base bidding.
Whatever system is in place, I would suspect (hope) that a company that's been around as long as Pelair would have at the very least a defined criteria. That way there can be no doubt as to where people stand.
As you said, a lot of this stuff is second hand. The big question however, is what's being applied here, and does it follow the legal Pelair workplace agreement? Unfortunately, judgeing by all the angst, quite a few people (self included) simply don't know!
Some aviation companies apply redundancies outside of overall seniority if it involves the reduction or liquidation of one aircraft type over another. The company I work for also offers base protection, so that a more senior pilot cannot displace a junior one from his/her home base as a consequence of normal base bidding.
Whatever system is in place, I would suspect (hope) that a company that's been around as long as Pelair would have at the very least a defined criteria. That way there can be no doubt as to where people stand.
As you said, a lot of this stuff is second hand. The big question however, is what's being applied here, and does it follow the legal Pelair workplace agreement? Unfortunately, judgeing by all the angst, quite a few people (self included) simply don't know!
Merit 
Most companies would have employees that, with the benefit of hindsight, would not have been hired. A marginal performance on base and IFR checks, non adherance to SOPs, a history of minor incidents, bad attitude, problems getting along with other employees and clients, consistently late for work, not contactable when on reserve, scruffily dressed, "hard" on the aircraft etc etc
Obviously when having to downsize these people would be first in managements sights compared to someone who, whilst having joined later, performs well and has a good attitude.
Most companies would have employees that, with the benefit of hindsight, would not have been hired. A marginal performance on base and IFR checks, non adherance to SOPs, a history of minor incidents, bad attitude, problems getting along with other employees and clients, consistently late for work, not contactable when on reserve, scruffily dressed, "hard" on the aircraft etc etc
Obviously when having to downsize these people would be first in managements sights compared to someone who, whilst having joined later, performs well and has a good attitude.
Sad news indeed.
Sad news, the night skies will be poorer without the Pelair boys (& girls) whistling past!
About 15 years ago there were some very high time Westwind pilots about. Some had 10,000 + hours on type. I'm wondering, did any stay long enough to log 20,000 hours in the WW1124?
End of an era, those Westwinds must have 40,000 plus hours.
Last edited by pithblot; 8th May 2009 at 04:05.
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Conclusion of Metro 3 Scheduled Freight.
Sadly today concluded the scheduled Metro 3 freight operations for the Pel-Air workhorses. A fitting, though upsetting send off, courtesy of the Brissy firey’s early this morning, marked the end of an era.
I for one, will certainly miss hand flying the old girls on raw data, up and down the coast at all hours of the night.
Here’s hoping it’s onwards and upwards into the future for all involved.
I for one, will certainly miss hand flying the old girls on raw data, up and down the coast at all hours of the night.
Here’s hoping it’s onwards and upwards into the future for all involved.