Diversion and Curfew
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Diversion and Curfew
I'm quite surprised this hasn't been commented on here yet:
Flight snagged by curfew rules - Travel - smh.com.au 17 Nov 2008
FLIGHTS should be allowed to land at Sydney Airport after the 11pm curfew if they have been delayed by wild weather, the chief executive-designate of Qantas says.
Alan Joyce's call for special dispensation for delayed flights came after wild storms in Sydney on Friday night stranded about 2000 passengers.
One of the delayed flights was QF32, which took more than 24 hours to travel between Singapore and Sydney, leaving the aircraft so low on supplies that toilet paper had to be rationed to four pieces per passenger.
Francis Chippeck, travelling with her daughter, Ava, 2, said she was down to her last nappy. "I had to say to her, 'You better not poo."'
The flight was supposed to land in Sydney at 8pm, but the storm forced it to circle for an hour before landing in Canberra to refuel. But it took four hours to arrange for the Boeing 747 to be refuelled, by which time it was too late to land in Sydney.
The airline requested special leave from the Department of Transport to land after the curfew but was refused. It was not until the following morning that the flight touched down in Sydney.
"We do believe when special circumstances do occur that people should recognise the hardship and the impact that it has on people and as a result we think that there should be flexibility in how it's applied," Mr Joyce said.
A spokesman for the Infrastructure Minister, Anthony Albanese, whose electorate is under the flight path, said there would be no relaxation of the curfew.
(additional non-related Qantas news deleted.....)
This is a classic example of what a sham this curfew is. I don't know what the wind was doing at the time, but if it was a northerly this is simply shameful. I expect it would have been southerly/sou-easterly though if the storms were bad enough for a diversion. Even so - for crying out loud - I've heard the pax were held in the aircraft for EIGHT HOURS on the ground in CBR!
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Flight snagged by curfew rules - Travel - smh.com.au 17 Nov 2008
FLIGHTS should be allowed to land at Sydney Airport after the 11pm curfew if they have been delayed by wild weather, the chief executive-designate of Qantas says.
Alan Joyce's call for special dispensation for delayed flights came after wild storms in Sydney on Friday night stranded about 2000 passengers.
One of the delayed flights was QF32, which took more than 24 hours to travel between Singapore and Sydney, leaving the aircraft so low on supplies that toilet paper had to be rationed to four pieces per passenger.
Francis Chippeck, travelling with her daughter, Ava, 2, said she was down to her last nappy. "I had to say to her, 'You better not poo."'
The flight was supposed to land in Sydney at 8pm, but the storm forced it to circle for an hour before landing in Canberra to refuel. But it took four hours to arrange for the Boeing 747 to be refuelled, by which time it was too late to land in Sydney.
The airline requested special leave from the Department of Transport to land after the curfew but was refused. It was not until the following morning that the flight touched down in Sydney.
"We do believe when special circumstances do occur that people should recognise the hardship and the impact that it has on people and as a result we think that there should be flexibility in how it's applied," Mr Joyce said.
A spokesman for the Infrastructure Minister, Anthony Albanese, whose electorate is under the flight path, said there would be no relaxation of the curfew.
(additional non-related Qantas news deleted.....)
This is a classic example of what a sham this curfew is. I don't know what the wind was doing at the time, but if it was a northerly this is simply shameful. I expect it would have been southerly/sou-easterly though if the storms were bad enough for a diversion. Even so - for crying out loud - I've heard the pax were held in the aircraft for EIGHT HOURS on the ground in CBR!
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Good luck! but don't hold your breath.
There have been a number of attempts to put some discretion into the hands of competent people over the years. None of them lasted.
There was a time when exceptions could be granted by the Minister, but he got jack of it - "I wouldn't normally bother you Sir, but your daughter is on the aircraft" is one (genuine ) line that I recall.
"Green" considerations would extend beyond curfew issues to the efficient use of airspace - imagine what that might lead to.
Count me among the less than hopeful.
There have been a number of attempts to put some discretion into the hands of competent people over the years. None of them lasted.
There was a time when exceptions could be granted by the Minister, but he got jack of it - "I wouldn't normally bother you Sir, but your daughter is on the aircraft" is one (genuine ) line that I recall.
"Green" considerations would extend beyond curfew issues to the efficient use of airspace - imagine what that might lead to.
Count me among the less than hopeful.
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The curfew is a joke. Yes keep it for normal operations but airlines have no control over the weather and yet they foot the bill for diversions like this. Not only the cost of fuel, but hotels etc. The airlines have no control over the weather and yet they get punished for it.
No wonder Brisbane, Melbourne etc are preffered airports these days.
No wonder Brisbane, Melbourne etc are preffered airports these days.
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Why is it Qantas was made to inconvenience a plane load of people, but last night Etihad was allowed to take-off 15 minutes after curfew.
I wonder what the difference in rulings were. Surely if they can make QF wait 8 hours then they can make Etihad wait 7.
I do believe that in circumstances like the weather the other night that the bureaucrats should take their balls out of their wives handbags and allow the few aircraft dispensation for arrival/departures. It is not an daily or even weekly occurence.
I wonder what the difference in rulings were. Surely if they can make QF wait 8 hours then they can make Etihad wait 7.
I do believe that in circumstances like the weather the other night that the bureaucrats should take their balls out of their wives handbags and allow the few aircraft dispensation for arrival/departures. It is not an daily or even weekly occurence.
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Departing from Sydney is a different kettle of fish. If the acft has pushed back before 2300L, then it can depart after curfew comes into effect. From memory, you have to depart from F? intersection, not full length.
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Perhaps the question needs to be asked - why didn't QF carry enough fuel to divert to MEL or BNE where they could have turned around quicker and got to SYD before the start of curfew?
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perhaps they did have enough fuel preflight for that Duff Man.....yet after holding for 40 or so mins the landing time blew out even more.....at which point, YSCB was their only option......
and perhaps...when the flight left Singapore...the forecast didnt have any requirements........guess we'll never know......
and perhaps...when the flight left Singapore...the forecast didnt have any requirements........guess we'll never know......
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sorry just to clarify a previous post...take-off after curfew is permitted only if taxi clearance is requested before 11pm. I've been in the position where I've pushed back just completed the checklist & the controller calls us up & gives us a 15 sec warning. Just enough time to ask & receive taxi clearance. Then you can taxi as slow as you like.
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And another clarification: 16R takeoffs at F from the international side are no longer permitted. Presume somebody has blown away a can recently from the remote stands near F ????
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Sydney (as in "City of...", not just "Airport") is in danger of becoming what some the greenies seem to want the whole world to be... What it started out as: a tent encampment for a bunch of people who really don't want to be there. Everything's falling apart or inadequate to service the number of people who want to use it.
As for the airport... It's almost as if someone has said: "Let's try to do everything the wrong way around... you know, exactly the opposite to the way it's done everywhere else and been proven to work well... and see if we can make it work."
The curfew at Sydney is the Aviation equivalent of the old road rule that said a man had to walk in front of every motor vehicle waving a red flag. It's as if that rule was still in place.
It was designed to protect people from the noise of first generation jets. The noise made by modern high bypass engines is a fraction of what the old jets made, and the effect today's aircraft have on the surrounding areas, particularly if arriving on 34, is miniscule. It simply HAS to go, (but I'm not holding my breath).
As for the airport... It's almost as if someone has said: "Let's try to do everything the wrong way around... you know, exactly the opposite to the way it's done everywhere else and been proven to work well... and see if we can make it work."
The curfew at Sydney is the Aviation equivalent of the old road rule that said a man had to walk in front of every motor vehicle waving a red flag. It's as if that rule was still in place.
It was designed to protect people from the noise of first generation jets. The noise made by modern high bypass engines is a fraction of what the old jets made, and the effect today's aircraft have on the surrounding areas, particularly if arriving on 34, is miniscule. It simply HAS to go, (but I'm not holding my breath).
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Many moons ago when I worked in Sydney ATC, the game was the same. As long as the aircraft had asked for pushback and taxy they were allowed to depart.
It was rare, but the pilots and ATC had an understanding, and pretended not to 'notice' the bags still being loaded, the aerobridge still connected,no pushback tug,etc.
Mind you in those days the Transport Minister ( Big Tony)and Plibarsek weren't the local members for the area.
It was rare, but the pilots and ATC had an understanding, and pretended not to 'notice' the bags still being loaded, the aerobridge still connected,no pushback tug,etc.
Mind you in those days the Transport Minister ( Big Tony)and Plibarsek weren't the local members for the area.
Sydney should have a curfew, you don't want people landing there at all hours, however they should be a little more flexible in its application. ie all aircraft should be allowed to get to their final destination or land post curfew if delayed by weather, especially international flights.
This would be the 3rd curfew debacle they have had in the last 6 months or so.
This would be the 3rd curfew debacle they have had in the last 6 months or so.
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PILOT - "Sydney Approach VH-XYZ requires landing at Sydney airport after 11pm local as per Sydney Airport Curfew Act 1995 Section 19 paragraph C."
ATC - "VH-XYZ are you declaring an Emergency"
PILOT - "Negative"
ATC - "Can you land at Canberra or Wlliamstown?"
PILOT - "As per CAR224, I'll determine which airport is most suitable thankyou."
MC
ATC - "VH-XYZ are you declaring an Emergency"
PILOT - "Negative"
ATC - "Can you land at Canberra or Wlliamstown?"
PILOT - "As per CAR224, I'll determine which airport is most suitable thankyou."
MC
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I know its a rather short final but in visual conditions what is wrong with an after curfew arrival through the heads of the bay on a right base for 34L.
Would not hurt on the odd occasion. And for the smaller a/c 34R.
I think Keg has pointed out once before its only a handfull of folk at Kurnell that would know!
J
Would not hurt on the odd occasion. And for the smaller a/c 34R.
I think Keg has pointed out once before its only a handfull of folk at Kurnell that would know!
J
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I think we all agree that the Syd curfew is a joke, you don't need to be a rocket scientist to know that it's in place for the few, who like the airport problem itself (to them ) are very noisy!
There may very well come a day when there is an accident with lives lost that could be directly contributed to the stupid curfew in place, lets hope that I'm terribly wrong here, but?
You have pollies making decisions about such things, there in lies a big part of the problem.
I wonder what penilties would apply if one did declare an emergency & land after 11pm& it was kind of proven not to be the case?
CW
, you don't need to be a rocket scientist to know that it's in place for the few, who like the airport problem itself (to them ) are very noisy!There may very well come a day when there is an accident with lives lost that could be directly contributed to the stupid curfew in place, lets hope that I'm terribly wrong here, but?
You have pollies making decisions about such things, there in lies a big part of the problem.
I wonder what penilties would apply if one did declare an emergency & land after 11pm& it was kind of proven not to be the case?
CW
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PILOT - "Sydney Approach VH-XYZ requires landing at Sydney airport after 11pm local as per Sydney Airport Curfew Act 1995 Section 19 paragraph C."
ATC - "VH-XYZ are you declaring an Emergency"
PILOT - "Negative"
ATC - "Can you land at Canberra or Wlliamstown?"
PILOT - "As per CAR224, I'll determine which airport is most suitable thankyou."
ATC - "VH-XYZ are you declaring an Emergency"
PILOT - "Negative"
ATC - "Can you land at Canberra or Wlliamstown?"
PILOT - "As per CAR224, I'll determine which airport is most suitable thankyou."
It might be something you would do on your last day before retirement to make a point, but do you really think it would be as simple as that.
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Quote one piece of CARs forsaking all others, like setting out in a commercial aircraft to only be able to land at an aerodrome with a known curfew with no suitable alternate... Yeah that will fly
It might be something you would do on your last day before retirement to make a point, but do you really think it would be as simple as that.
Basically YES.
An ATC guy from Sydney once told me that an Ansett A320 held North of Sydney whilst debris was being removed from runway 16R approaching curfew time.
Only runway 16L was available for arrival & departure, therefore reducing airport operating capacity.
By the time curfew had commenced and the amount of aircraft holding, aircraft with sufficient fuel diverted to BNE, MEL & CBR. Which you would expect if they had the fuel & reserves available & the PIC determined those airports as suitable for the operation.
The A320 in question holding to the North elected to go to Williamstown.
The aircraft was unsuccesful in becomming visual at Willy, declared a fuel emergency & diverted back to Sydney & still landed after curfew but with alot less fuel.
CAR's & Curfew acts do not cover all possible circumstances!
In the case above the aircraft DID depart Brisbane with sufficient reserves to fly to an airport with a known curfew & no associated significant weather problems.
However, circumstances arose where decisions had to be made.
I would rather land post curfew at Sydney where the weather was ok & then provide the reasons why I chose not to divert to Williamstown later. Providing detail such as unfamiliarity with the airport, poor weather, non controlled airport etc etc etc.
There are PROVISIONS in the curfew act that allow aircraft that have insufficient fuel to continue and land after curfew if no other suitable alternate airport is available.
You can not intentionally depart an aerodrome for Sydney with curfew issues without holding alternate fuel, however as highlighted above, sh&t happens at the worst possible times.
The pilot need not declare an emergency until such time as the fuel state would neccesitate the need to do so.
Having insufficient fuel to divert isnt a fuel emergency when there are provisions for you to land at Sydney post curfew.
The pilot in command shall be responsible for determining whether alternate airport X, Y or Z is suitable on the day.
MC