QFLink New Destinations?
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Pilots in general are hopeless at industrial negotiations. All tough talk in the morning session at the negotiation table.
Then, over lunch break, one of the management pulls out a brochure of a bigger faster desirable aeroplane and says, "don't tell anyone, but we are looking at how these might work in our network."
Hard nosed bargaining for D8 pay increments is replaced by "lets not make it too hard to get our hands on those jets!"
So put the box of Kleenex away, that jet dream is a wet dream. Your 'single aisle jet rate' is a tease. Its like middle aged men drooling over 18yo page three chicks. In your dreams.
It is a distraction, a tactic, and it is working.
Wanna fly a 717 with a red tail? Send a resume to NJS.
Worthwhile? Ask yourself - why has QF been paying for NJS to administer QF Psych Tests to all new hire 717 pilots since mid-2007?
Other regional jet? Only if you are prepared to lead the race to the bottom, at a sprint. Leave your integrity at the door.
Then, over lunch break, one of the management pulls out a brochure of a bigger faster desirable aeroplane and says, "don't tell anyone, but we are looking at how these might work in our network."
Hard nosed bargaining for D8 pay increments is replaced by "lets not make it too hard to get our hands on those jets!"
So put the box of Kleenex away, that jet dream is a wet dream. Your 'single aisle jet rate' is a tease. Its like middle aged men drooling over 18yo page three chicks. In your dreams.
It is a distraction, a tactic, and it is working.
Wanna fly a 717 with a red tail? Send a resume to NJS.
Worthwhile? Ask yourself - why has QF been paying for NJS to administer QF Psych Tests to all new hire 717 pilots since mid-2007?
Other regional jet? Only if you are prepared to lead the race to the bottom, at a sprint. Leave your integrity at the door.
ITCZ,
in response to your initial post...
yes those scary swept wings and crazy fast cruise speed.... I doubt it could be done, pilots just wouldn't be up to it
in response to your edited post...
I pretty much agree
in response to your initial post...
yes those scary swept wings and crazy fast cruise speed.... I doubt it could be done, pilots just wouldn't be up to it
in response to your edited post...
I pretty much agree
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ITCZ, are you saying with this comment:
that this comment by R Cruizo
may have some substance?
why has QF been paying for NJS to administer QF Psych Tests to all new hire 717 pilots since mid-2007?
QF may absorb the NJS 717 crews & AOC into the Qlink system
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ggrowler, I edited that post and changed it considerably so your comments might not link up.
The point I made that you refer to is this...
My esteemed colleagues in disciplined D8 outfits like Sunnies and Easterns might not like to hear it, but there is no way that a single aisle jet will be introduced into their outfits without completely trashing many things that Sunnies and Eastern pilots hold dear.
Such as seniority, promotion from within, and industry leading (or at least industry standard) remuneration.
From QFLinks point of view, taking a turboprop outfit and adding jets is far less desireable than 'hiring in' the pilots and expertise, and both are more expensive than starting up a 'greenfields' operation.
Take a look at what happened at Kendells and even AirNorth when regional jets turned up. Seniority dictated the training roster. Which resulted in a very high 'wash out' rate in the simulator and in line training.
Valuable as stalwarts of the prop operation, older pilots had a hard time adjusting to new ways of training, new ways of doing business, and often beyond their best years of being amenable to change.
Extra sessions, extra sectors, aeroplanes arriving but delayed training schedule meant no crews and huge disruptions for crews already trained.
Turboprop culture attempted to make the jet fit the operation, rather than the operating culture change to fit the new aeroplane. Old habits died hard.
If you should ever decide to take up mountain climbing, I recommend that you find yourself a good mountaineer for your first climb. Don't just grab a bunch of mates from the gym and have a go.
Most pilots, provided they have the basic skills and are prepared to give up some old ideas and do the work to learn the new, can make the transition from straight wing turboprop to swept wing turbojet.
I don't think I am better than any other pilot because I fly a swept wing turbojet. I was lucky enough to be in the right place at the right time, and made the best of the opportunity. I can fly a swept wing turbojet because my organisation has a CAR 217 organisation that has produced over 1000 swept wing turbojet pilots.
That organisation is available 'off the shelf' from a number of companies. But not at Sunnies and Eastern.
I'm sure they could do it, but it will take more time, cost QFLink more money, than if they continue to buy that expertise elsewhere. If they did go down that path, Sunnies and Eastern pilots will see careers come to an early end, perhaps huge influx of 'contract,' 'seconded,' and 'direct entry' pilots that will do 'their work' while they are relegated to the less glamorous work, and all at a 'single aisle jet rate' that so undercuts other operations in order to offset the huge cost of going down that path.
Wake up. The sleaze at the bar doesn't just want to buy you a drink. He wants to get you drunk and .... you.
The point I made that you refer to is this...
My esteemed colleagues in disciplined D8 outfits like Sunnies and Easterns might not like to hear it, but there is no way that a single aisle jet will be introduced into their outfits without completely trashing many things that Sunnies and Eastern pilots hold dear.
Such as seniority, promotion from within, and industry leading (or at least industry standard) remuneration.
From QFLinks point of view, taking a turboprop outfit and adding jets is far less desireable than 'hiring in' the pilots and expertise, and both are more expensive than starting up a 'greenfields' operation.
Take a look at what happened at Kendells and even AirNorth when regional jets turned up. Seniority dictated the training roster. Which resulted in a very high 'wash out' rate in the simulator and in line training.
Valuable as stalwarts of the prop operation, older pilots had a hard time adjusting to new ways of training, new ways of doing business, and often beyond their best years of being amenable to change.
Extra sessions, extra sectors, aeroplanes arriving but delayed training schedule meant no crews and huge disruptions for crews already trained.
Turboprop culture attempted to make the jet fit the operation, rather than the operating culture change to fit the new aeroplane. Old habits died hard.
If you should ever decide to take up mountain climbing, I recommend that you find yourself a good mountaineer for your first climb. Don't just grab a bunch of mates from the gym and have a go.
Most pilots, provided they have the basic skills and are prepared to give up some old ideas and do the work to learn the new, can make the transition from straight wing turboprop to swept wing turbojet.
I don't think I am better than any other pilot because I fly a swept wing turbojet. I was lucky enough to be in the right place at the right time, and made the best of the opportunity. I can fly a swept wing turbojet because my organisation has a CAR 217 organisation that has produced over 1000 swept wing turbojet pilots.
That organisation is available 'off the shelf' from a number of companies. But not at Sunnies and Eastern.
I'm sure they could do it, but it will take more time, cost QFLink more money, than if they continue to buy that expertise elsewhere. If they did go down that path, Sunnies and Eastern pilots will see careers come to an early end, perhaps huge influx of 'contract,' 'seconded,' and 'direct entry' pilots that will do 'their work' while they are relegated to the less glamorous work, and all at a 'single aisle jet rate' that so undercuts other operations in order to offset the huge cost of going down that path.
Wake up. The sleaze at the bar doesn't just want to buy you a drink. He wants to get you drunk and .... you.
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Originally Posted by JetRacer
may have some substance
Big companies, like the QF group, don't have just one plan on the drawing board. There might be three or four big plans being worked on at any one time.
Far out. Three pprune posts on one thread in one night. Time to chill!
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I've been hearing this "we'll be getting regional jets" stuff around the crew room for the last few months, and I can't for the life of me figure out why anyone would think that's a reasonable expectation at the moment.
QLink is already heavily invested in fleet expansion, and hasn't even announced plans for new routes with the aircraft to be delivered within the next year. Given the absolute pain in the a#$ training crews onto the Q400 has been and the host of AOC/EBA issues that continue to raise their heads because it's easier for the company to keep all the 400's on the one AOC, what crazed, degenerate executive would open up the pandora's box of jet operations within the next few years?
Not that I credit management with advanced reasoning skills, but in the current financial environment, even the most ambitious shiny-bum would be thinking twice about stepping outside the nice, comfortable, well-tried arena of regional turbo-prop operations which continue to make a decent profit.
Like ITCZ suggests - there's jet jobs in them thar hills! Just not at Sunnies or Eastern for at least a few years. If ever.
QLink is already heavily invested in fleet expansion, and hasn't even announced plans for new routes with the aircraft to be delivered within the next year. Given the absolute pain in the a#$ training crews onto the Q400 has been and the host of AOC/EBA issues that continue to raise their heads because it's easier for the company to keep all the 400's on the one AOC, what crazed, degenerate executive would open up the pandora's box of jet operations within the next few years?
Not that I credit management with advanced reasoning skills, but in the current financial environment, even the most ambitious shiny-bum would be thinking twice about stepping outside the nice, comfortable, well-tried arena of regional turbo-prop operations which continue to make a decent profit.
Like ITCZ suggests - there's jet jobs in them thar hills! Just not at Sunnies or Eastern for at least a few years. If ever.
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What is QF's response to Virgin E-Jets going after "cream" Qlink markets like GLA, EML, BN-coastal-CS, Qld. state gov.Western contract ports Weipa, Longreach, etc. sometime in the next 12-24 months ?
Would 717's compete against the E-Jet?
Is the rumour perhaps about existing routes, not new ones?
Would 717's compete against the E-Jet?
Is the rumour perhaps about existing routes, not new ones?
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ps, heard nothing & NJS has a contract for 11 x 717 until 2012.
Latest rumour is QF may absorb the NJS 717 crews & AOC into the Qlink system as a seperate operation like Sunnies & Eastern.
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ITCZ is it lonely up there on that lofty mountain upon which you stand, looking down upon the huddling turboprop masses? I have never heard such a load of $hit in my life. Fair enough there would be a number of pilots that wouldnt transition from DHC-8 to a jet easlily. However there would be MANY that would. They do it all the time when they leave to go to Virgin!
Bottums Up
Deafstar me old mate. I think you're being a bit harsh on ITCZie. He's not building himself up, or putting others down, he's just comparing the Kendell's experience with the unlikely chance of QF retraining all their current DH8 drivers onto a jet, at the same time they employ and train newbies onto the DH8.
With loads & yields decreasing, the discussion about the virtues of the Q400 v E170/E190 v B717 gets more lopsided in favour of the Q400. The lower operating costs make this the most suitable aircraft to keep routes open during the hard times.
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ITZ ..careful those words as you sit on your high pedestal on your swept wing jet as you and all the sky gods look down at all those with a "turboprop culture". I think your comments are offending to all regional turbo prop drivers.
im sure that extra 10000 feet you cruise at and extra 50kts TAS makes all the difference in your mind.
Mind you there are MANY ex AA DC9, BA146 crew flying for the Link that would also like you to explain to them how difficult the transition to flying jet may be...
im sure that extra 10000 feet you cruise at and extra 50kts TAS makes all the difference in your mind.
Mind you there are MANY ex AA DC9, BA146 crew flying for the Link that would also like you to explain to them how difficult the transition to flying jet may be...
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Originally Posted by Duff Shark
careful those words..
Not forgotten.
Opinionated? Yes. Smug? Occasionally. Think I am better because of what I fly? No. I'm not good. I'm lucky.
I fly in the same airspace as Sunnies and Eastern D8 pilots. IMHO they are a very professional outfit. A lot of pilots flying 'bigger' equipment should take a leaf out of their book.
The going rate for 'single aisle regional jet' is around $140k or better. Any less than that and you are paying for your endorsement or subsidising the training.
Look at the history. Don't repeat the mistakes of others. Don't cheat yourselves on real D8 rates and allowances on the promise of a jet.
Last edited by ITCZ; 13th Nov 2008 at 01:16.
Narrabri council to discuss air services future - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)
The Narrabri Shire Council will meet QantasLink and the New South Wales Government today to discuss the future of air services between Sydney and Narrabri.
QantasLink says it will not continue its service after March because of commercial reasons.
But Narrabri Mayor Robyn Faber has questioned the explanation, because there has been a steady increase in the number of passengers using the route.
She says other carriers, such as Aeropelican, have indicated that they are interested in taking over the service.
"First of all we want QantasLink to review their decision. Secondly, if they don't review their decision and we do get another carrier, we want a firm commitment from the Government that all the usage of airlines in and out of Narrabri will be with that replacement carrier, not with Qantas at Moree," she said.
Meanwhile, there has been criticism of plans to axe air services to several smaller inland centres including Walgett and Lightning Ridge.
The Rex subsidiary Airlink says it has been cut because the Commonwealth Government is planning to phase out a rebate given to airlines servicing non-viable commercial routes.
The state MP for Barwon, Kevin Humphries, says he has grave fears for air travel in outback areas, if both the state and federal governments do not intervene.
That has been echoed by Mr Humphries' federal counterpart, Mark Coulton, who says it will sound the death knell for services in several smaller communities.
The Narrabri Shire Council will meet QantasLink and the New South Wales Government today to discuss the future of air services between Sydney and Narrabri.
QantasLink says it will not continue its service after March because of commercial reasons.
But Narrabri Mayor Robyn Faber has questioned the explanation, because there has been a steady increase in the number of passengers using the route.
She says other carriers, such as Aeropelican, have indicated that they are interested in taking over the service.
"First of all we want QantasLink to review their decision. Secondly, if they don't review their decision and we do get another carrier, we want a firm commitment from the Government that all the usage of airlines in and out of Narrabri will be with that replacement carrier, not with Qantas at Moree," she said.
Meanwhile, there has been criticism of plans to axe air services to several smaller inland centres including Walgett and Lightning Ridge.
The Rex subsidiary Airlink says it has been cut because the Commonwealth Government is planning to phase out a rebate given to airlines servicing non-viable commercial routes.
The state MP for Barwon, Kevin Humphries, says he has grave fears for air travel in outback areas, if both the state and federal governments do not intervene.
That has been echoed by Mr Humphries' federal counterpart, Mark Coulton, who says it will sound the death knell for services in several smaller communities.
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YourFa if you had bothered to read my initial post you would have seen that I never once mentioned the 717 to go to Sunnies/Eastern. I had simply heard a rumour that Qantaslink was going to announce new destinations for the Dash. I am fairly sure that the lowly turboprop operators dont want your flying and never have. So really you havent 'burst my bubble' as I dont give a flying whatsit as to what happens with the oh so precious 717 routes.
Congrats on drifting this thread ever closer to a NJS Qantaslink bunfight.
Congrats on drifting this thread ever closer to a NJS Qantaslink bunfight.
Lets correct a few error posted as fact.
QLink is part of the Qantas group. The 717's are leased by QF not NJS. If there was any talk of change I doubt very much it would be of a merger. What on earth would they merge??
As the Sunstate pilots would already be aware, the NJS 717 tech crew are on around $137 as a base salary. I think thats more than sunstate or eastern tech crew, Very few of the NJS tech crew are on AWA. A small handfull left and they have the option of changing to a collective agreement.
NJS have not got full staff travel we have some mutant variation on what QF staff get. Book at least a week ahead, no access to the QF website to determine flight availability etc. Effectively its of marginal benefit.
Jetconnect is QF owned and it used to be, not sure of the current arrangements lesser conditions that NJS.
Every time I taxi in I have a look at the Dash 8's and think what a good job it would be. If I could get a direct entry command I would have a good hard think about it. Nothing wrong with Sunstate and eastern. i suspect aand hope the standards are higher.
QLink is part of the Qantas group. The 717's are leased by QF not NJS. If there was any talk of change I doubt very much it would be of a merger. What on earth would they merge??
As the Sunstate pilots would already be aware, the NJS 717 tech crew are on around $137 as a base salary. I think thats more than sunstate or eastern tech crew, Very few of the NJS tech crew are on AWA. A small handfull left and they have the option of changing to a collective agreement.
NJS have not got full staff travel we have some mutant variation on what QF staff get. Book at least a week ahead, no access to the QF website to determine flight availability etc. Effectively its of marginal benefit.
Jetconnect is QF owned and it used to be, not sure of the current arrangements lesser conditions that NJS.
Every time I taxi in I have a look at the Dash 8's and think what a good job it would be. If I could get a direct entry command I would have a good hard think about it. Nothing wrong with Sunstate and eastern. i suspect aand hope the standards are higher.