AIPA or AFAP FOR JETSTAR
Rad Alt,
The AIPA does not give a woolly rats about regionals, this has always been about J* and how AIPA can wrest control of that flying.They do not come to the regionals as there are no jets there but rest assured if jets appeared tomorrow then the very next day the AIPA would be calling up to tell those hapless regional pilots "sorry matey you blokes are ok with the props but this is a JET so we will be doing that flying for you,hope you don't mind".
So what the heck,sign up now and have your prospects flushed down the crapper but don't say you were not told.
The AIPA does not give a woolly rats about regionals, this has always been about J* and how AIPA can wrest control of that flying.They do not come to the regionals as there are no jets there but rest assured if jets appeared tomorrow then the very next day the AIPA would be calling up to tell those hapless regional pilots "sorry matey you blokes are ok with the props but this is a JET so we will be doing that flying for you,hope you don't mind".
So what the heck,sign up now and have your prospects flushed down the crapper but don't say you were not told.
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Australia
Posts: 187
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Don,
I'm truly sorry you feel that way - and I say 'you' collectively and individually. I'm guessing that your experience is none too different from the original JQ (read, Impulse) crew; that you'd been ignored by past AIPA COMs because your sphere of ops weren't seen as being important or desirable enough to warrant any care.
I can just tell you that in my dealings with AIPA, everyone I've spoken to, pilots and non-pilots on their staff, have all been talking about 'The Group'. They go to great lengths to emphasise that AIPA feels that all parts of 'The Group', mainline, JQ and regionals (they mention regionals as frequently as JQ) should be represented by the one body, and that all pilots within the business should have the ability to pursue opportunities throughout the business, i.e. something akin to a Group opportunity list.
Sure, old wounds take time to heal. I'd just ask that all who feel they've been wounded look ahead to see how best those wounds could heal. Look to see if there's still a danger of further wounds, and if there's not, venture forth to see if there are benefits to be had in a new, hopefully very productive relationship.
I'm truly sorry you feel that way - and I say 'you' collectively and individually. I'm guessing that your experience is none too different from the original JQ (read, Impulse) crew; that you'd been ignored by past AIPA COMs because your sphere of ops weren't seen as being important or desirable enough to warrant any care.
I can just tell you that in my dealings with AIPA, everyone I've spoken to, pilots and non-pilots on their staff, have all been talking about 'The Group'. They go to great lengths to emphasise that AIPA feels that all parts of 'The Group', mainline, JQ and regionals (they mention regionals as frequently as JQ) should be represented by the one body, and that all pilots within the business should have the ability to pursue opportunities throughout the business, i.e. something akin to a Group opportunity list.
Sure, old wounds take time to heal. I'd just ask that all who feel they've been wounded look ahead to see how best those wounds could heal. Look to see if there's still a danger of further wounds, and if there's not, venture forth to see if there are benefits to be had in a new, hopefully very productive relationship.
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: australia
Age: 74
Posts: 907
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Some of you guys need to stop listening to management spin.
As far as I can see ,AIPA is the only pilots Union in Australia with a plan for the future.
They don't want a turf war with the AFAP.
They want to get an AusALPA type structure up and running and I've been told AFAP have been invited to participate.
AIPA's vision is for each pilot group to have an independant Pilots Council that looks after day to day issues with a head office for administration.
No point in having 1 mega pilots union like the AFAP was back in the late Seventies/ early Eighties.
Why do you think the Qantas pilots broke away and formed AIPA.
Pilots want some self autonomy.
All this malarkey just plays right into managements divide and conquer tactics.
Management contrived tribalism at it's best.
What better way to introduce a new airframe than to have pilots worried about their futures vying to cut each others throats to keep their jobs.
As far as I can see ,AIPA is the only pilots Union in Australia with a plan for the future.
They don't want a turf war with the AFAP.
They want to get an AusALPA type structure up and running and I've been told AFAP have been invited to participate.
AIPA's vision is for each pilot group to have an independant Pilots Council that looks after day to day issues with a head office for administration.
No point in having 1 mega pilots union like the AFAP was back in the late Seventies/ early Eighties.
Why do you think the Qantas pilots broke away and formed AIPA.
Pilots want some self autonomy.
All this malarkey just plays right into managements divide and conquer tactics.
Management contrived tribalism at it's best.
What better way to introduce a new airframe than to have pilots worried about their futures vying to cut each others throats to keep their jobs.
Spot on Blow!
GD, AJ and their mates are laughing at the primal behaviour the pilots are exhibiting at the moment.
Have I missed the memo that QF are giving all the 78 flying to JQ?????
They have no intention of doing that.
Why would they?
They have already got A380 flying for 400 rates with most probably more gives from AIPA to come.
They are no doubt licking their lips at what they'll get the 78 for!!!!
At the end of the day they just want more productivity. They will push as hard as they can but they will not shoot themselves in the foot.
GD, AJ and their mates are laughing at the primal behaviour the pilots are exhibiting at the moment.
Have I missed the memo that QF are giving all the 78 flying to JQ?????
They have no intention of doing that.
Why would they?
They have already got A380 flying for 400 rates with most probably more gives from AIPA to come.
They are no doubt licking their lips at what they'll get the 78 for!!!!
At the end of the day they just want more productivity. They will push as hard as they can but they will not shoot themselves in the foot.
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: AUS
Posts: 80
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Warning - it is late, much red and ready for bed.
I think I spun similar lines to these sometime in the past....different context of course.
I know I ignored you in the past.
I realise that I never saw you as important.
I know I always saw you as an inferior being.
But now that I see you as a potential THREAT, quick, jump into my bed.
Promise I won't screw you..........again.
The only joke is that some people fall for the same bs lines over and over.
So, to all the AIPA advocates, whose sum total of union membership and experience since 1981 gives us a grand total of 1, please once again explain how you will deal with the conflict of interest issue........
Ahhhh, I can almost hear the tumbleweeds rolling on by.
I think I spun similar lines to these sometime in the past....different context of course.
I know I ignored you in the past.
I realise that I never saw you as important.
I know I always saw you as an inferior being.
But now that I see you as a potential THREAT, quick, jump into my bed.
Promise I won't screw you..........again.
The only joke is that some people fall for the same bs lines over and over.
So, to all the AIPA advocates, whose sum total of union membership and experience since 1981 gives us a grand total of 1, please once again explain how you will deal with the conflict of interest issue........
Ahhhh, I can almost hear the tumbleweeds rolling on by.
Gasket,
At the recent IFALPA conference in Mexico the AIPA and the AFAP (at the request of the organiser) met to discuss how one representative body for pilots might be formed in Australia.I respectfully suggest to you that if you really want to be informed as to the progress in this matter that you contact a participant of that meeting in Mexico and disregard all else.
JJW,
Perfect.
At the recent IFALPA conference in Mexico the AIPA and the AFAP (at the request of the organiser) met to discuss how one representative body for pilots might be formed in Australia.I respectfully suggest to you that if you really want to be informed as to the progress in this matter that you contact a participant of that meeting in Mexico and disregard all else.
JJW,
Perfect.
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Australia
Posts: 159
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
So, to all the AIPA advocates, whose sum total of union membership and experience since 1981 gives us a grand total of 1, please once again explain how you will deal with the conflict of interest issue........
Using your logic, we should split AIPA into a dozen different unions, 744 Capts, 330 SOs, 767 FOs who commute etc etc ...... Do you honestly think there is never any conflict of interest between various groups in AIPA? The best results are always obtained by sitting down and resolving the conflict together.
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: australia
Posts: 113
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Notice how everyone is playing nice at the moment this always happens.
Lets see if history repeats and if the vote does not go the way QF pilots would PREFER the JQ bashing starts again in full force, you are your own worst enemy.
That being said I am going to give AIPA the benefit of the doubt, anything has got to be better than the representation we have previously had.
Lets see if history repeats and if the vote does not go the way QF pilots would PREFER the JQ bashing starts again in full force, you are your own worst enemy.
That being said I am going to give AIPA the benefit of the doubt, anything has got to be better than the representation we have previously had.
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Australia
Age: 74
Posts: 221
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Just a thought to increase the transparency of this discussion:
For all those whose posts in any way reflect the view "What has the union (AIPA, AFAP, JPA,VPA etc etc etc) ever done for me....?
Please, at the end of your post attach a brief summary of what YOU have done for the union.
1) When was the last time you spoke to a union rep
2) When was the last time you visited union HQ?
3) How many years on a relevant branch committee/council?
4) How many years as an office holder?
I sleep well at night knowing that through my career I actively provided good answers to 1,2,3,4. I think it would help if all posters fleshed out their input.
For all those whose posts in any way reflect the view "What has the union (AIPA, AFAP, JPA,VPA etc etc etc) ever done for me....?
Please, at the end of your post attach a brief summary of what YOU have done for the union.
1) When was the last time you spoke to a union rep
2) When was the last time you visited union HQ?
3) How many years on a relevant branch committee/council?
4) How many years as an office holder?
I sleep well at night knowing that through my career I actively provided good answers to 1,2,3,4. I think it would help if all posters fleshed out their input.
Sherm, are you suggesting that paying your union fees does not entitle you to the services of the union? One must be a committee member or hang out at the union office if you want representation?
....Oh and to follow your new rule; I have attended all recent union briefings and SGMs, made a few trips to the office and even emailed a few of my issues to the committee in the past.
Do I now qualify for fair representation?
....Oh and to follow your new rule; I have attended all recent union briefings and SGMs, made a few trips to the office and even emailed a few of my issues to the committee in the past.
Do I now qualify for fair representation?
Last edited by Beer Baron; 19th Sep 2008 at 02:27. Reason: Spelling and compliance
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Australia
Age: 74
Posts: 221
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Beer Baron
I didn't make a new "rule". It's always been there. A union, any union, is the sum of its members, nothing more, nothing less. Once it becomes "me" instead of "we" it dies.....been true for unions, guilds, clans, tribes, families, regiments, sects and sporting clubs for hundreds of years.
On occasion, a member may need way more from his fellow members, and their paid officers, than he/she can ever repay. So be it. But that is not a daily event. In general....it's a mutual effort.
So...you need to think about your answers (and responsibilities) to questions 3 and 4 before you can ask again..."what must THEY" do for "ME"
I didn't make a new "rule". It's always been there. A union, any union, is the sum of its members, nothing more, nothing less. Once it becomes "me" instead of "we" it dies.....been true for unions, guilds, clans, tribes, families, regiments, sects and sporting clubs for hundreds of years.
On occasion, a member may need way more from his fellow members, and their paid officers, than he/she can ever repay. So be it. But that is not a daily event. In general....it's a mutual effort.
So...you need to think about your answers (and responsibilities) to questions 3 and 4 before you can ask again..."what must THEY" do for "ME"
Sherm
As I do not believe that I yet know all the ins and outs of the airline union game I will leave the committee and office bearer positions for those with more experience than myself. I still have a few decades to take up options (3) or (4) but in the meantime I would hope that I could expect the support of my union regardless. After all the union is expected to represent all it's members not just past and present COM members.
I am happy to say that so far they have not failed my expectations.
As I do not believe that I yet know all the ins and outs of the airline union game I will leave the committee and office bearer positions for those with more experience than myself. I still have a few decades to take up options (3) or (4) but in the meantime I would hope that I could expect the support of my union regardless. After all the union is expected to represent all it's members not just past and present COM members.
I am happy to say that so far they have not failed my expectations.
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: CAVE
Posts: 26
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
AFAP let me down for the last time.
My decision is made.
My post isn't that relevant other than to say, I am more than disappointed in their support. Waste of money, time and effort.
My decision is made.
My post isn't that relevant other than to say, I am more than disappointed in their support. Waste of money, time and effort.
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: Australia
Posts: 169
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Go on Dave, P.M. him.
Whilst you are at it, stop telling lies Don (Dave).
I too was at the meeting you mention and your version of things is an out and out lie and smacks of desperation.
Whilst you are at it, stop telling lies Don (Dave).
I too was at the meeting you mention and your version of things is an out and out lie and smacks of desperation.
Jake,
It was put clearly in almost those words and I remember it as if it were yesterday, and to this day the "self appointed" one is happy to preach that under AIPA that is exactly how it will work.So you tell me now,if I can't trust the word of my local CoM man on all matters AIPA, then just who can I trust??Furthermore he claims AIPA owns the seniority list and can do with it as they see fit!!Is he wrong on that as well??Cheers for now.
It was put clearly in almost those words and I remember it as if it were yesterday, and to this day the "self appointed" one is happy to preach that under AIPA that is exactly how it will work.So you tell me now,if I can't trust the word of my local CoM man on all matters AIPA, then just who can I trust??Furthermore he claims AIPA owns the seniority list and can do with it as they see fit!!Is he wrong on that as well??Cheers for now.
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: airside
Posts: 518
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
JWW wrote:
Warning - it is late, much red and ready for bed.
I think I spun similar lines to these sometime in the past....different context of course.
I know I ignored you in the past.
I realise that I never saw you as important.
I know I always saw you as an inferior being.
But now that I see you as a potential THREAT, quick, jump into my bed.
Promise I won't screw you..........again.
The only joke is that some people fall for the same bs lines over and over.
So, to all the AIPA advocates, whose sum total of union membership and experience since 1981 gives us a grand total of 1, please once again explain how you will deal with the conflict of interest issue........
Ahhhh, I can almost hear the tumbleweeds rolling on by.
Conflict of Interest and AIPA?
Ever heard of Australian Airlines nee TAA?
How did the integration of those pilots into Qantas go JWW?
Better and fairer than anything attempted at Ansett!
Who ran those integration negotiations whenever Ansett was involved?
Wouldn't be the AFAP now would it!
As to your other statements :
I know I ignored you in the past.
I realise that I never saw you as important.
I know I always saw you as an inferior being.
But now that I see you as a potential THREAT, quick, jump into my bed.
Promise I won't screw you..........again.
There may very well have been a modicum of truth with what you wrote as a result of WorkChoices and how the Dixon plan relyed upon aspects of that contentious legislation such as Operational Redundancy to force Qantas crews onto JetStar inspired agreements. ( I however believe the Dixon Plan was more to do with "press ganging" Qantas crews onto JetStar conditions rather than just a straight replacement of one group with another)
However now a great deal of the more contentious aspects of WorkChoices are dead, so just how is Qantas going to replace Qantas pilots with Jetstar pilots now?
The redundancy and associated retraining cost as imposed by the relevant Qantas Agreement would cost way, way in excess of any small savings in using JetStar crew to fly Qantas liveried aircraft.
Then we have the Qantas Sale act that prevents Qantas management from off-shoring pilots jobs. No "flag of convienience carriers" able to be used whilst the Act remains in it's present form.
I believe it takes an Act of Parliament to change said Act.
I don't think Dixon has the ear of Government to the same extent today now that Johnny is gone.
Somehow I think the balance of power may have shifted.
Don't you think it would be prudent to get to know AIPA a little better?
Warning - it is late, much red and ready for bed.
I think I spun similar lines to these sometime in the past....different context of course.
I know I ignored you in the past.
I realise that I never saw you as important.
I know I always saw you as an inferior being.
But now that I see you as a potential THREAT, quick, jump into my bed.
Promise I won't screw you..........again.
The only joke is that some people fall for the same bs lines over and over.
So, to all the AIPA advocates, whose sum total of union membership and experience since 1981 gives us a grand total of 1, please once again explain how you will deal with the conflict of interest issue........
Ahhhh, I can almost hear the tumbleweeds rolling on by.
Conflict of Interest and AIPA?
Ever heard of Australian Airlines nee TAA?
How did the integration of those pilots into Qantas go JWW?
Better and fairer than anything attempted at Ansett!
Who ran those integration negotiations whenever Ansett was involved?
Wouldn't be the AFAP now would it!
As to your other statements :
I know I ignored you in the past.
I realise that I never saw you as important.
I know I always saw you as an inferior being.
But now that I see you as a potential THREAT, quick, jump into my bed.
Promise I won't screw you..........again.
There may very well have been a modicum of truth with what you wrote as a result of WorkChoices and how the Dixon plan relyed upon aspects of that contentious legislation such as Operational Redundancy to force Qantas crews onto JetStar inspired agreements. ( I however believe the Dixon Plan was more to do with "press ganging" Qantas crews onto JetStar conditions rather than just a straight replacement of one group with another)
However now a great deal of the more contentious aspects of WorkChoices are dead, so just how is Qantas going to replace Qantas pilots with Jetstar pilots now?
The redundancy and associated retraining cost as imposed by the relevant Qantas Agreement would cost way, way in excess of any small savings in using JetStar crew to fly Qantas liveried aircraft.
Then we have the Qantas Sale act that prevents Qantas management from off-shoring pilots jobs. No "flag of convienience carriers" able to be used whilst the Act remains in it's present form.
I believe it takes an Act of Parliament to change said Act.
I don't think Dixon has the ear of Government to the same extent today now that Johnny is gone.
Somehow I think the balance of power may have shifted.
Don't you think it would be prudent to get to know AIPA a little better?
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Europe
Posts: 187
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Jetstar pilots should not vote to join AIPA as this will preclude them from deliberately undercutting other pilots in the future in order to get work.
I agree with Genex and VVW - dont join AIPA.
I agree with Genex and VVW - dont join AIPA.