Working for Airservices Australia, the safety based organisation
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Working for Airservices Australia, the safety based organisation
This is my first post and I thought i would share my experience working for ASA in the Last couple of years.
Lately there have been very publicised near misses/ tiba/ incidents involving ATC, mostly blamed on the ATC's and our union. The truth is, ATC around the country are the only thing stopping the country grinding to a hault.
Staffing is abysmal. We rely on one person turning up. Just one. If they are in a car crash/ get sick/ family emergency there is no one else to turn up. And when they do go sick, the only way to replace them is to call in some one off their day off. Very often, you will be called every day off, harassed for up to 6 or 7 different shifts. Usually there are at most 4-5 people to actually call. Often you will finish work at 6 am in the morning, and by midday they have called you and want you to start work at 4 to cover the evening shift. HOW CAN ANYONE CALL THIS SAFE???????????? Strangely enough ASA do. When you see a delay notam, it most likely means there is an ATC sitting at the consol for 4-5 hours without a break because there is no one else.
At any time, there might not even be a qualified ATC looking after your aircraft. To reduce TIBA, ASA introduced rules that said a room supervisor could watch the consol and traffic for upto 20 mins. They are unable to make any decisions so if there were to be an emergency such as a decompression and emergency decent, you would not get any traffic information. If this does occur and the air craft doesn't get the information, the controller on break would be responsible and stood down.
This procedure would be likened to a 737 pilot being able to be at the controls of a 747 to give the pilot a pee break, or a nurse being able to keep going on an operation while the surgeon has a cup of coffee. IT’S ALL GOOD UNTIL SOMETHING GOES WRONG.
Most controllers have not had any training for up to 2 1/2 years. Nothing! No class room, No simulator. Every so often you have to do a online training package, usually about corporate governance or maybe OHS (bearing in mind guys do a one person night shift and sit in front of a screen for hours on end because there are no staff) The computer based training is completely useless, we get nothing from it. We might as well not do it, you don't learn anything and its the only way we can get training. It is just a way to tick the box that we have done it without spending any money.
Air services is so poorly run, places like Karratha and Avalon which desperately need towers are getting busier and busier. Sooner or later there is going to be an accident, with all the 737/ F100/ 717 /A320's flying in and out without separation in amongst VFR and light IFR and what ever else you can think of. Flight Crew are so busy going in and out that it is dangerous. It’s an accident waiting to happen
People working as ATC are so unhappy, older guys often say its the worst they have ever seen it after 20 years. The moral has plummeted. New guys want to leave, the guys who have a little longer on their training bond are applying over seas and the older blokes are talking to the accountants and figuring out when they can retire. Many have gone over seas for job interviews such as Germany and Ireland, they are getting ready to go. Some groups can expect to loose about 40% of their staff to retirement and other jobs. Blokes who have degrees in engineering and things like this are also considering going into other jobs. Nobody is happy.
Its not just the money for the reason people are leaving, I think its more to do with the lack of good management, the ever increasing amounts of night shifts to save money, the constant harassment for overtime, the threat of disciplinary action if you don't do overtime, and the fact that nobody is happy to be there. It's sad that new guys so early in their career just with a few years experience want to leave. And to top everything off the CEO blames us for TIBA. The support staff that work in Canberra apparently hate air traffic controller, the last thing on their to do list is anything to do with the ATC staff. We are last priority. Yearly pay rises are often delayed because paperwork gets "lost" and things like this often happen.
The college is totally inadequate even for the standard 50 trainees, the amount of people who actually get rated from most courses is about 30% if they are lucky. And then if they try to leave Air services will sue them for the training bond. Nobody can afford to live on 30 grand for a year if they have a family, and then you have to factor in the delay of three months as experienced by the current course and then have the 70% chance that you will be shown the door if you don't pass.
The fact is, Why the hell would anyone want to work for this mob. They are a bunch of cheats that will use you until you have nothing left then chuck you out. Everyday they put money before safety of the flying public and its not going to change.
Lately there have been very publicised near misses/ tiba/ incidents involving ATC, mostly blamed on the ATC's and our union. The truth is, ATC around the country are the only thing stopping the country grinding to a hault.
Staffing is abysmal. We rely on one person turning up. Just one. If they are in a car crash/ get sick/ family emergency there is no one else to turn up. And when they do go sick, the only way to replace them is to call in some one off their day off. Very often, you will be called every day off, harassed for up to 6 or 7 different shifts. Usually there are at most 4-5 people to actually call. Often you will finish work at 6 am in the morning, and by midday they have called you and want you to start work at 4 to cover the evening shift. HOW CAN ANYONE CALL THIS SAFE???????????? Strangely enough ASA do. When you see a delay notam, it most likely means there is an ATC sitting at the consol for 4-5 hours without a break because there is no one else.
At any time, there might not even be a qualified ATC looking after your aircraft. To reduce TIBA, ASA introduced rules that said a room supervisor could watch the consol and traffic for upto 20 mins. They are unable to make any decisions so if there were to be an emergency such as a decompression and emergency decent, you would not get any traffic information. If this does occur and the air craft doesn't get the information, the controller on break would be responsible and stood down.
This procedure would be likened to a 737 pilot being able to be at the controls of a 747 to give the pilot a pee break, or a nurse being able to keep going on an operation while the surgeon has a cup of coffee. IT’S ALL GOOD UNTIL SOMETHING GOES WRONG.
Most controllers have not had any training for up to 2 1/2 years. Nothing! No class room, No simulator. Every so often you have to do a online training package, usually about corporate governance or maybe OHS (bearing in mind guys do a one person night shift and sit in front of a screen for hours on end because there are no staff) The computer based training is completely useless, we get nothing from it. We might as well not do it, you don't learn anything and its the only way we can get training. It is just a way to tick the box that we have done it without spending any money.
Air services is so poorly run, places like Karratha and Avalon which desperately need towers are getting busier and busier. Sooner or later there is going to be an accident, with all the 737/ F100/ 717 /A320's flying in and out without separation in amongst VFR and light IFR and what ever else you can think of. Flight Crew are so busy going in and out that it is dangerous. It’s an accident waiting to happen
People working as ATC are so unhappy, older guys often say its the worst they have ever seen it after 20 years. The moral has plummeted. New guys want to leave, the guys who have a little longer on their training bond are applying over seas and the older blokes are talking to the accountants and figuring out when they can retire. Many have gone over seas for job interviews such as Germany and Ireland, they are getting ready to go. Some groups can expect to loose about 40% of their staff to retirement and other jobs. Blokes who have degrees in engineering and things like this are also considering going into other jobs. Nobody is happy.
Its not just the money for the reason people are leaving, I think its more to do with the lack of good management, the ever increasing amounts of night shifts to save money, the constant harassment for overtime, the threat of disciplinary action if you don't do overtime, and the fact that nobody is happy to be there. It's sad that new guys so early in their career just with a few years experience want to leave. And to top everything off the CEO blames us for TIBA. The support staff that work in Canberra apparently hate air traffic controller, the last thing on their to do list is anything to do with the ATC staff. We are last priority. Yearly pay rises are often delayed because paperwork gets "lost" and things like this often happen.
The college is totally inadequate even for the standard 50 trainees, the amount of people who actually get rated from most courses is about 30% if they are lucky. And then if they try to leave Air services will sue them for the training bond. Nobody can afford to live on 30 grand for a year if they have a family, and then you have to factor in the delay of three months as experienced by the current course and then have the 70% chance that you will be shown the door if you don't pass.
The fact is, Why the hell would anyone want to work for this mob. They are a bunch of cheats that will use you until you have nothing left then chuck you out. Everyday they put money before safety of the flying public and its not going to change.
Okay,if the Controllers really believe that there is a safety issue here, then here's what I think you guys should consider ...
The environment is getting somewhat murky with the Staff Shortage/TIBA/Overtime issue combined with current EBA negotiations. The ASA Management, and of course, the Media, are trying to link this all together ... ".. the Controllers just want a payrise and all this crap about staff shortages is just a smokescreen .. "
I think you should split the two issues .... run two seperate campaigns.
The first campaign should be the staffing/fatigue/TIBA/Safety issue. I would be saying ... "Forget the EBA negotiations, we don't want, nor will we accept, any pay increase for the moment and we won't start negotiating such things until a line in the sand is drawn and a plan is put in place to alleviate the current safety problems. We will work with you, but you better have a REAL plan, which doesn't include changes to our current conditions of service, in place before we move on to the EBA ".
Once that is resolved, move on to EBA negotiations .. in a calmer climate.
Am I dreaming
The environment is getting somewhat murky with the Staff Shortage/TIBA/Overtime issue combined with current EBA negotiations. The ASA Management, and of course, the Media, are trying to link this all together ... ".. the Controllers just want a payrise and all this crap about staff shortages is just a smokescreen .. "
I think you should split the two issues .... run two seperate campaigns.
The first campaign should be the staffing/fatigue/TIBA/Safety issue. I would be saying ... "Forget the EBA negotiations, we don't want, nor will we accept, any pay increase for the moment and we won't start negotiating such things until a line in the sand is drawn and a plan is put in place to alleviate the current safety problems. We will work with you, but you better have a REAL plan, which doesn't include changes to our current conditions of service, in place before we move on to the EBA ".
Once that is resolved, move on to EBA negotiations .. in a calmer climate.
Am I dreaming
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The fact is, Why the hell would anyone want to work for this mob.
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Have to agree with sadatc - unfortunately. It COULD be so much better.
Senior Management have been feathering their own nests with fat bonuses while controllers are seen as a pesky interference. Bit like many large organisations.
Correct me if I am wrong but our core business is keeping the aluminium apart. For that we have staff of about 800. The actual figure varies depending on who you talk to.
Somehow from that we end with an organisation of about 3,000 people. Yes in that number we have ARFF and Techs - both much needed.
BUT at my location we have 3 managers for 15 staff - and the managers think that they need another one ie: 4 managers. Then they report to a local Manager who reports to a manager who reports to a manager who reports to TFN. Anyway I think that is how it works.
Can you see the problem? We don't matter. "Keep separating the aircraft and shutup" That is basically LipServices Management style.
To make us feel warm and fuzzy they are trying to reinvent themselves as an "employer of choice". For them this means free coffee every Wednesday - but only at YMML centre, and only if you get a little ticket signed by a Manager.
And when you spend all you working life with us they will give you an A4 piece of paper in a cheap frame saying good on you - if they remember.
The place is incredibly dysfunctional. Ever seen a chicken without a head - if not look at Lip Services. Sadly all the holes are lining up and as much as NOBODY wants to see it happen, safety could be compromised sooner rather than later.
You should read OUR crash comics........
Senior Management have been feathering their own nests with fat bonuses while controllers are seen as a pesky interference. Bit like many large organisations.
Correct me if I am wrong but our core business is keeping the aluminium apart. For that we have staff of about 800. The actual figure varies depending on who you talk to.
Somehow from that we end with an organisation of about 3,000 people. Yes in that number we have ARFF and Techs - both much needed.
BUT at my location we have 3 managers for 15 staff - and the managers think that they need another one ie: 4 managers. Then they report to a local Manager who reports to a manager who reports to a manager who reports to TFN. Anyway I think that is how it works.
Can you see the problem? We don't matter. "Keep separating the aircraft and shutup" That is basically LipServices Management style.
To make us feel warm and fuzzy they are trying to reinvent themselves as an "employer of choice". For them this means free coffee every Wednesday - but only at YMML centre, and only if you get a little ticket signed by a Manager.
And when you spend all you working life with us they will give you an A4 piece of paper in a cheap frame saying good on you - if they remember.
The place is incredibly dysfunctional. Ever seen a chicken without a head - if not look at Lip Services. Sadly all the holes are lining up and as much as NOBODY wants to see it happen, safety could be compromised sooner rather than later.
You should read OUR crash comics........
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Peuce.
The problem with your idea is that employer sees everything as intertwined (and it is). If they get things like "flexibility" is allows them to roster more efficiently, thus saving bodies. Too bad if it screws the employees. Probably the biggest issue is; trying to run an organisation that has a big safety element as a "business". It's a problem of philosophy. Money (profits) and safety are often opposing drivers. AsA is (and has been for a while) seeing how far things will stretch. It's easy to measure profits, not so easy to measure "safety". What can seen from this 'stretching' is the effect on staff. Although AsA doesnt seem to recognise it, it's a people business. As can be seen from the posts you can find on pprune, even young, new employees take a very short amount of time to become disengaged. Yet the management don't even seem to care. I think a lot of that is because they have worked for the disfunctional organisation for so long that they think it's normal, and have no frame of reference. That's why words such as "employer of choice" get bandied about. They are just words, as nothing is actually done to achieve that title. There is an enormous divide in the organisation- the controllers are seen as overpaid, underworked prima donnas by the rest of the organisation (especially the management). AsA seems incapable of being the business it pretends to be, as the public service culture is rampant in "bull$hit castle". If it were a business, it would be taking business decisions about the staff, primarily the controllers, and actually start looking after them, instead of trying to do everything possible to upset them. Things that go on would have proper managers in hysterics. The 'creative interpretation' of EBAs, principles of rostering, etc. right down to micro-mismanagement of individuals. As an example; someone may be really stale, and desperate to want a change of scenary, or want to move back to their home state/whatever. A vacancy arises in that location. What does AsA do? Send the loyal employee of many years service? Or send someone straight out of the college who has specifically asked not to go to that location? Guess. Their reason? Only one training cost. Make both people happy and there would be two training costs. It's a business, so these things have to be weighed accordingly. But what cost to the organisation when the experienced person resigns to go OS/be an accountant/whatever, and the young person spends their spare time writing posts on pprune about how unhappy they are and what a crap employer AsA is. But the short-term dollar rules.
Short-term. Could describe many managers/CEOs.
Miserable workforce? Who cares- it isnt measured anywhere.
Short sighted.
The problem with your idea is that employer sees everything as intertwined (and it is). If they get things like "flexibility" is allows them to roster more efficiently, thus saving bodies. Too bad if it screws the employees. Probably the biggest issue is; trying to run an organisation that has a big safety element as a "business". It's a problem of philosophy. Money (profits) and safety are often opposing drivers. AsA is (and has been for a while) seeing how far things will stretch. It's easy to measure profits, not so easy to measure "safety". What can seen from this 'stretching' is the effect on staff. Although AsA doesnt seem to recognise it, it's a people business. As can be seen from the posts you can find on pprune, even young, new employees take a very short amount of time to become disengaged. Yet the management don't even seem to care. I think a lot of that is because they have worked for the disfunctional organisation for so long that they think it's normal, and have no frame of reference. That's why words such as "employer of choice" get bandied about. They are just words, as nothing is actually done to achieve that title. There is an enormous divide in the organisation- the controllers are seen as overpaid, underworked prima donnas by the rest of the organisation (especially the management). AsA seems incapable of being the business it pretends to be, as the public service culture is rampant in "bull$hit castle". If it were a business, it would be taking business decisions about the staff, primarily the controllers, and actually start looking after them, instead of trying to do everything possible to upset them. Things that go on would have proper managers in hysterics. The 'creative interpretation' of EBAs, principles of rostering, etc. right down to micro-mismanagement of individuals. As an example; someone may be really stale, and desperate to want a change of scenary, or want to move back to their home state/whatever. A vacancy arises in that location. What does AsA do? Send the loyal employee of many years service? Or send someone straight out of the college who has specifically asked not to go to that location? Guess. Their reason? Only one training cost. Make both people happy and there would be two training costs. It's a business, so these things have to be weighed accordingly. But what cost to the organisation when the experienced person resigns to go OS/be an accountant/whatever, and the young person spends their spare time writing posts on pprune about how unhappy they are and what a crap employer AsA is. But the short-term dollar rules.
Short-term. Could describe many managers/CEOs.
Miserable workforce? Who cares- it isnt measured anywhere.
Short sighted.
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I think a lot of that is because they have worked for the disfunctional organisation for so long that they think it's normal, and have no frame of reference.
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ASA are very good at one thing.
They make Defence look like the worlds best employer, ever.
How is it that things have been able to go on for this long without the union talking "strike" or other such evil words.
When is it time for people to put their hands up and say enough is enough, this is not safe.
They make Defence look like the worlds best employer, ever.
How is it that things have been able to go on for this long without the union talking "strike" or other such evil words.
When is it time for people to put their hands up and say enough is enough, this is not safe.
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How is it that things have been able to go on for this long without the union talking "strike" or other such evil words.
TIBA is a result of mismanagement of Human Resources; Its a lack of recognition of fatigue etc by the Spin Men*; It comes from cutting rosters to minimise costs and profit maximisation; It comes from slashing training; It comes from creating an extra tier of management etc etc.
The remuneration aspect of this EBA from ATCers is rather low IMO compared to other ANSPs hiring/poaching but it will keep people, maybe not all but most [that have the ****s and are autonomous] - market forces 101 (See my comments abour trench diggers in the Pilbara).
Let me tell you mate, the numbers resigning recently is bloody alarming.
When is it time for people to put their hands up and say enough is enough, this is not safe.
*I'm not referring to my colleagues Clarrie Grimmett and Bill O'Reilly - they had talent, these 'spinners' don't.
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Originally Posted by Bill Woodfull
When are THE CUSTOMERS (eg AIRCREW not Airline spin doctors) going to say this is not safe? Where are the Pilot unions? Where is the Board? Where is Albanese?
Originally Posted by Bill Woodfull
I'm not referring to my colleagues Clarrie Grimmett and Bill O'Reilly - they had talent, these 'spinners' don't.
Staffing doesnt just affect day to day operations. It also affects training and essential project completion like data validation, procedures validation, and longer term project completion. Not to mention recurrent training.
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D.N.S and Bill,
I undertand workchoices is a pain in the arse and please don't think I'm having a crack at any ATC's but if things are not safe in your opinions, then you all need to stand up together and say this is crap, its not safe, enough if enough. I realise you don't want to strike but if staff keep on leaving, things will only get worse for those that stay.
Your custumers will not help you, they are to worried about their own problems to care about any of yours. Don't wait for them to help you. They wont do anything until something bad happens, and I hope it never does, then their lawyers will come after any individual that they can pin something on. If it happens to be you, are ASA really going to have your back, or will they blade you to get themselves out of the ****?
Is your union doing enough to help you guys? I dont have that answer, I'm not a member but if the NSW teachers can stop work for two hours on Tue over conditions, perhaps this is a direction that needs further investigation.
The average joe out there doesn't give a crap about yours, the aircrew, LAMEs and all the other people it takes to get them to their destination, so long as the get the fare on the cheap. The also don't watch the 7.30 report or read the Australian or fourms like these.
They watch today tonight and ACA.
Overall its pretty poor state when someone like sadatc, is so unhappy after such a short time. How long will this person stay in ATC?
I undertand workchoices is a pain in the arse and please don't think I'm having a crack at any ATC's but if things are not safe in your opinions, then you all need to stand up together and say this is crap, its not safe, enough if enough. I realise you don't want to strike but if staff keep on leaving, things will only get worse for those that stay.
Your custumers will not help you, they are to worried about their own problems to care about any of yours. Don't wait for them to help you. They wont do anything until something bad happens, and I hope it never does, then their lawyers will come after any individual that they can pin something on. If it happens to be you, are ASA really going to have your back, or will they blade you to get themselves out of the ****?
Is your union doing enough to help you guys? I dont have that answer, I'm not a member but if the NSW teachers can stop work for two hours on Tue over conditions, perhaps this is a direction that needs further investigation.
The average joe out there doesn't give a crap about yours, the aircrew, LAMEs and all the other people it takes to get them to their destination, so long as the get the fare on the cheap. The also don't watch the 7.30 report or read the Australian or fourms like these.
They watch today tonight and ACA.
Overall its pretty poor state when someone like sadatc, is so unhappy after such a short time. How long will this person stay in ATC?
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Is your union doing enough to help you guys?
How is it that things have been able to go on for this long without the union talking "strike"
Anyway, this is not industrial. Our CA negotiation is, but not the chronic staff shortages that caused the holding at Sydney to blow out to 60mins yesterday and required us to stop departures out of BN and CG for SY for nearly an hour.
Oz ATCs don't need to strike or stop work to make their point. Its is being made each and every day that a new "delays and restrictions" or TIBA or TRA - due staff shortage NOTAM comes out. This happened 101 times in August. Controllers do come in on overtime each and every day. It's that there are not enough to plug all the roster holes and short term absences.
Being a controller is a particularly rewarding and satifying career. At the present time, the largest employer of ATCs in Oz has made the controllers workplace very unhappy.
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here, here sadatc
You have stated it as it is, there's no bs in your post its obviously heartfelt.
We all feel the same way, it used to be a great organisation that has been run into the sh*tter by an egotist.
Can you believe that I was abused for suggesting the RAAF guys look for work OS. When in actual fact I was devising a very cunning plan to free up some posies so some of us ASA wallies could get employment with the prefered ATC provider in Australia!!!! Whatever!!!!!!!!!
Might I suggest you cancel you message bank and turn all your phones off.
BgTFN
We all feel the same way, it used to be a great organisation that has been run into the sh*tter by an egotist.
Can you believe that I was abused for suggesting the RAAF guys look for work OS. When in actual fact I was devising a very cunning plan to free up some posies so some of us ASA wallies could get employment with the prefered ATC provider in Australia!!!! Whatever!!!!!!!!!
Might I suggest you cancel you message bank and turn all your phones off.
BgTFN
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Dirty Pierre, I agree its not an industrial issue but ASA staff on this forum are stating that they are unhappy and that things are unsafe. You say that ATC don't need to stop work or go on strike to make their point and that its being made by the TIBA/TRA notams.
I disagree with you, all it states to the aviation community is that ASA don't have enough staff to run the airspace. Aircrew will go back and complain, opso's will re-schedule aircraft departures but nothing changes. You guys get more pissed off, some stay and some leave, training is effected, making things even harder and the cycle continues.
I'm not having a crack at the coalface controllers that turn up day in day out and bust their hump but you can only keep allowing the strain on the system to contiune for so long until something or someone breaks.
I guess with things sounding as bad as they appear on these forums, I thought there would have been a lot more attention in the media on the staffing issues.
I disagree with you, all it states to the aviation community is that ASA don't have enough staff to run the airspace. Aircrew will go back and complain, opso's will re-schedule aircraft departures but nothing changes. You guys get more pissed off, some stay and some leave, training is effected, making things even harder and the cycle continues.
I'm not having a crack at the coalface controllers that turn up day in day out and bust their hump but you can only keep allowing the strain on the system to contiune for so long until something or someone breaks.
I guess with things sounding as bad as they appear on these forums, I thought there would have been a lot more attention in the media on the staffing issues.
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C-change,
the industrial landscape in Oz is still mainly Howards anti union doing. I can not give you exact details (as I don't know them well enough) but I understand that there are legal restrictions as to when controllers can take industrial action.
This is where employers have the upper hand. Management can be utterly rubbish and run an organisation into the ground - as has happened at ASA - and staff have very limited means of instigating change. This is particularly so when we have ingrained ineptness and yes men at almost all levels. Political correctness ensures that people do not question bad decisions.
Additionally I believe that Air Traffic Controllers are also subject to legislation as an "essential service" that further restricts actions and empowers the pollies.
So yes - if we could walk out tomorrow to draw attention to the plight of the system - then I, and others probably would. But right now I am busy keeping it all flowing and hoping (against all hope) that the Minister steps in and forces the hand of the deplorable management we are subjected to.
the industrial landscape in Oz is still mainly Howards anti union doing. I can not give you exact details (as I don't know them well enough) but I understand that there are legal restrictions as to when controllers can take industrial action.
This is where employers have the upper hand. Management can be utterly rubbish and run an organisation into the ground - as has happened at ASA - and staff have very limited means of instigating change. This is particularly so when we have ingrained ineptness and yes men at almost all levels. Political correctness ensures that people do not question bad decisions.
Additionally I believe that Air Traffic Controllers are also subject to legislation as an "essential service" that further restricts actions and empowers the pollies.
So yes - if we could walk out tomorrow to draw attention to the plight of the system - then I, and others probably would. But right now I am busy keeping it all flowing and hoping (against all hope) that the Minister steps in and forces the hand of the deplorable management we are subjected to.
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You still ( at the moment) have the right not to accept overtime
see this thread:
http://www.pprune.org/d-g-reporting-...ompulsory.html
I agree with Direct.No.Speed that 'USA has far more liberal rights & protections with respect to industrial action than Australia' So do a lot of other places. I mean, the obviously ironic name of this thread is 'AsA the safety based organisation' - yet we have no legislation for:
i) maximum hours each week;
ii) no official definition of what 'reasonable' overtime would be - although it seems to be at least 1 a fortnight according to AsA's wishlist
iii) a fatigue management system that only gets worried when we hit a score of 80 - equivalent in mental impairment to a blood alcohol content of 0.5 - (which is also TWICE AS TIRED AS M-F/9-5 WORKER GETS) - this figure is also set the same across the organisation - whether you are an outstation - on your own, with no back-up, or in a centre where there are at least other people to help you.
iv) we can't even get AsA to agree to maximum time permitted to be plugged in at the console (and this is an issue for some groups)