Merged: QF emergency landing into SYD.
Sprucegoose
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I don't know if you've noticed these things come 'in threes' especially as far as the media is concerned, we have seen it before with both Virgin and Jetstar and now it is Qantas's turn!
As far as I am concerned, I think an explosive depressurisation is news worthy, the rest is just media muck raking and sensationalism at it's best!
As far as I am concerned, I think an explosive depressurisation is news worthy, the rest is just media muck raking and sensationalism at it's best!
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representing the FAAA at the ATSB (Australian Safety and Transport Bureau) investigation of the incident; acting as a support person for our members who were on the flight.
The FAAA like other interested parties is awaiting the outcome of this investigation.
The FAAA on Tuesday wrote to Geoff Dixon requesting a full Company briefing on the incident at the earliest opportunity. We will advise members of Mr Dixon’s response in due course. Naturally our members are concerned about the causes of what was a very serious incident.
The FAAA wishes to thank the Company for its co-operative approach in relation to this matter
Finally, we applaud the professionalism displayed by our members during and after
Doesn't look like 'demanding answers' to me kremin
The FAAA like other interested parties is awaiting the outcome of this investigation.
The FAAA on Tuesday wrote to Geoff Dixon requesting a full Company briefing on the incident at the earliest opportunity. We will advise members of Mr Dixon’s response in due course. Naturally our members are concerned about the causes of what was a very serious incident.
The FAAA wishes to thank the Company for its co-operative approach in relation to this matter
Finally, we applaud the professionalism displayed by our members during and after
Doesn't look like 'demanding answers' to me kremin
The Reverend
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Speedbird,
I presume you take Channel 7's report of dumping petrol low over Botany Bay as gospel also.
"Air traffic controllers received a call from the pilot declaring an emergency and proceeded to give priority clearance for a landing at Sydney,'' the spokesman told AAP."
The front page of the Sun-Herald has a huge photo of a 767 with a white stream of what looks like fuel coming out the trailing edge of the right wing, and the caption on pg. 5 reads "...the Qantas 767 leaks fluid above Sydney Airport yesterday...."
This photo mysteriously doesn't make it anywhere onto the smh or sun-herald websites...could it be they have realised that the "fluid" in question was actually the fuel they are intentionally dumping and the photo has been pulled?
This photo mysteriously doesn't make it anywhere onto the smh or sun-herald websites...could it be they have realised that the "fluid" in question was actually the fuel they are intentionally dumping and the photo has been pulled?
Nunc est bibendum
Maui, let's go through the post bit by bit.
Chimbu offered a hypothesis and I agreed. You may not however there is no 'we' in this part of the discusion.
I'm raising a new discussion point and stating that I don't know what it really was....others may know what it was, I didn't. I raised the point, there was no other person sitting beside me to discuss it with. Therefore there is no 'we' in this part of the discussion.
Here is the only part where I intimated a decision. Given that I still don't have anyone sitting beside me at the moment to discuss it with then there is still no 'we' to considered in this point. Therefore, do you dispute the application of airmanship or is it just the fact that I didn't actually articulate the decision making process of not wanting end up in Manila with 6-7 tonne of fuel at a time of year where CBs and rain are pretty common, having flown all the way there on one A/P, run the flaps on an alternate system with attendant issues for approach and track miles/sequence with ordinary ATC, terrain, weather, go around, etc; manually drop the gear and have it permanently locked down once lowered with the possibility of no nose wheel steering which I wouldn't know until after I'd dropped the gear but would then require a tow and then not have any maintenance facilities available after landing to fix the problem when a major maintenance facility and spare aircraft are available 15 minutes away. Is it also the fact that I didn't articulate that whilst not wanting to go to MNL on first glance I'd probably be comfortable to take the aeroplane to Brissie or Melbourne if the company wanted it there instead and after consideration of all the information including wx, notams, etc? Or is it simply the fact that I didn't articulate that my decision making process for most events (bar the time critical ones) is always based upon input from all possible resources including the F/Os (who have provided some bloody good input for me in recent times and whose support I rely on always) and spoke simply as another contributor to the discussion?
Seriously, we are being far too precious about what we write on an internet chat forum.
I agree with almost everything you said...
The only point I raise is that if it was a C HYD SYS PRESS ( I don't know if that's what it was) ...
...I wouldn't be continuing to Manila irrespective of the fact that I still had two other systems.
Seriously, we are being far too precious about what we write on an internet chat forum.
Grandpa Aerotart
Not sure I agree Keg. (EDIT - hadn't read you last post before I hit send on this one - I'll let it stand as written despite your further and excellent input)
Certainly I would be seeking input from the company IF that was possible and diverting/landing if instructed to do so. If it was not I would simply continue to destination. In fact the radio call would go something like "Hey guys we have lost the center hydraulic system. We are happy to continue to destination unless you have other considerations/objections"
Yes, you will be landing flap 20 and doing alternate gear/flap extension but really that is about it..unless the reserve brake/nosewheel steering light remains on...you might as well do it at destination.
Diversions/dumping fuel are VERY expensive exercises...just in capital never mind PR considerations. There is no QRH 'Plan to land at nearest suitable airport' statement in the CTR HYD PRESS non normal.
The repair bill will be pretty similar no matter where on the QF network you park the jet...whether you add $100k to that bill by making a less than enlightened decision is the crux of command decision making in my view.
Lets face it...99.9% of non normal situations we face are NOT Souix City or even exploding oxy bottles near Manila...they are just mundane scenarios as outlined above. The mundane does however happen quite often and the bottom line impact on the company can be very large indeed over the course of a financial year, if people are over reacting and diverting for no good reason.
Certainly I would be seeking input from the company IF that was possible and diverting/landing if instructed to do so. If it was not I would simply continue to destination. In fact the radio call would go something like "Hey guys we have lost the center hydraulic system. We are happy to continue to destination unless you have other considerations/objections"
Yes, you will be landing flap 20 and doing alternate gear/flap extension but really that is about it..unless the reserve brake/nosewheel steering light remains on...you might as well do it at destination.
Diversions/dumping fuel are VERY expensive exercises...just in capital never mind PR considerations. There is no QRH 'Plan to land at nearest suitable airport' statement in the CTR HYD PRESS non normal.
The repair bill will be pretty similar no matter where on the QF network you park the jet...whether you add $100k to that bill by making a less than enlightened decision is the crux of command decision making in my view.
Lets face it...99.9% of non normal situations we face are NOT Souix City or even exploding oxy bottles near Manila...they are just mundane scenarios as outlined above. The mundane does however happen quite often and the bottom line impact on the company can be very large indeed over the course of a financial year, if people are over reacting and diverting for no good reason.
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"Watchdog to investigate Qantas"
Headline in today's Australian.. all a bit too predictable and boring, methinks.. media whips up a frenzy to further their own agenda (ie selling copy with over-hyped crap stories 
), regulator has to been seen to be doing something, so he does something amounting to nothing, once grass grows over the issue, the "special team" -- no doubt made up of people that are "available" (read "best out of the way in a sideline project somewhere where they can't break anything") -- will be quietly disbanded..
The only thing that is really concerning in this whole saga is how much kudos the media has in this country.. imagine the same in the UK, everybody would just be going "ah well, it's just the yellow press which we'll just ignore" and all would be going after their actual business..
Of course Qantas had a bad PR run lately, but as others here have pointed out, NO-ONE who counts has said publicly that there has been any increase in actual safety related incidents.
Break over, back to productive work now
media whips up a frenzy to further their own agenda (ie selling copy with over-hyped crap stories ), regulator has to been seen to be doing something, so he does something amounting to nothing, once grass grows over the issue, the "special team" -- no doubt made up of people that are "available" (read "best out of the way in a sideline project somewhere where they can't break anything") -- will be quietly disbanded.. The only thing that is really concerning in this whole saga is how much kudos the media has in this country.. imagine the same in the UK, everybody would just be going "ah well, it's just the yellow press which we'll just ignore" and all would be going after their actual business..
Of course Qantas had a bad PR run lately, but as others here have pointed out, NO-ONE who counts has said publicly that there has been any increase in actual safety related incidents.
Break over, back to productive work now
I don't want to be the best pilot in the world - Just the oldest
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Poor b@stards. If the flight made it to within striking distance of Manila before fault was identified, this probably wouldn't have even made the papers.
Bloody hell, I've seen bigger problems than this involving Q-link at regional airports. Does it make the news? Not a chance. Reason - no bottom feeding journos lurking in regional WA towns. Just the way we like it.
Bloody hell, I've seen bigger problems than this involving Q-link at regional airports. Does it make the news? Not a chance. Reason - no bottom feeding journos lurking in regional WA towns. Just the way we like it.
Nemo Me Impune Lacessit
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A thought that crosses my mind about pushing on or turning back is that if you don't know what caused a fluid and pressure loss in any system then you don't know that that cause may not strike again on the other systems. Personally I would probably turn back if still near to my major engineering base.
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Clearly some level heads
At least we can be clear that concerns about what Crikey, Ben Sandilands and some in Pprune will feel irresistably inspired to spout forth do not yet feature in the QF decision making process.
Got a problem on climb out from a Main base? Come on back and we'll put the skilled guys with the full stores backup onto the job.
Prudent. Safe. Professional. Normal.
Got a problem on climb out from a Main base? Come on back and we'll put the skilled guys with the full stores backup onto the job.
Prudent. Safe. Professional. Normal.
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Getting a bit sick of the "this is a normal event" type posts. I would hope that readers of this forum are a bit more 'aviation savvy' than the average 'man in the street', which is why it's a little insulting.
Yes, sure, if you look at any of the recent incidents IN ISOLATION, then they are
However, with several in the space of 2 weeks, and given that
1. QF has been on a Dixon-era cost cutting drive
2. This forum has been privvy to engineers warning of the risks of outsourcing/cost cutting et etc.
3. the media love anything to do with aviation 'dangers'
you'd have to have your head in the sand not to think there may be some dots that might need joining.
I find this comment interesting
Surely those "that count" should've been making regular and loud noises that there hasnt been any increase, and that there is no developing/ongoing problem?
Certainly, some posts smack of "don't you dare say anything bad about the Q". Sometimes, people with concerns are not smacking their lips at the prospect of QF going under- in fact, maybe they want the opposite?
Yes, sure, if you look at any of the recent incidents IN ISOLATION, then they are
Prudent. Safe. Professional. Normal.
1. QF has been on a Dixon-era cost cutting drive
2. This forum has been privvy to engineers warning of the risks of outsourcing/cost cutting et etc.
3. the media love anything to do with aviation 'dangers'
you'd have to have your head in the sand not to think there may be some dots that might need joining.
I find this comment interesting
Of course Qantas had a bad PR run lately, but as others here have pointed out, NO-ONE who counts has said publicly that there has been any increase in actual safety related incidents.
Certainly, some posts smack of "don't you dare say anything bad about the Q". Sometimes, people with concerns are not smacking their lips at the prospect of QF going under- in fact, maybe they want the opposite?
short flights long nights
BBC has just reported that CASA is launching special investigation to look into Qantas saftey standards.....anyone know anymore?
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Perspective Please
Ok at the risk of
a) exposing my staff id to the QCC bugwatch brigade
b) upsetting collegues from my (semi) former profession and
c) sounding disrespectful to crew involved in the recent incidents...................
Let's be real in accepting that aside from an articulate few, those reporting the stories are by and large at the back of the grid and without a media release or briefing in their hand would'nt know which way their a*rse was pointing (particularly the case it seems if their pay comes from News Ltd or Sthn Cross)
Let us also be real in accepting Q has it's share of problems - many of which arise (and will continue to hangover) from the Dixon era of plundering the core business to fund wayward left field endeavours and underwrite the cash flow meanderings of JetSAR [no correspondence pls AJ still has start up and capital amortised on the Q balance sheet which is a bit like the bank forgetting it has given the business an overdraft]
Let us also be real in accepting that Q has an old tired fleet....a few old tired has been managers...and even the odd old 'has been' workers who desperately hang to an IR philosophy from another era.
Let us also be real in accepting that some of the union pitches and pushes and leaks of late have been a little amateur and in fact have totally painted the wrong picture. (To be fair to the unions, QF Corp/Media Comms have also equally been a total embarassment)
Finally for all the woes and contingent risk, let's not forget that we have other operators running aircraft around Australian Skies without liferafts, expecting a Cabin crew Member to cover TWO primary doors, ignoring Boeing directives and even one or two exploiting the opportunity of operating outside the (so-called) watchdog's area from behind the skirt of an FAOC.
Added to this we have CASA chasing cameras and chanting rhetoric rather than auditing compliance and a Minister that has his head so far up a dead bear's bum that when he finally sees the light it probably will be an endoscope.
Baseline: we are in an era where the regulatory arena is not stable and the real story should be that every Australian LAME, aircrew and operator is unified in ensuring Australia has the safest skies in the world.
Hang out the dirty sheets - but let's all be a little more outcomes focussed when it comes to explaining the stains.
here endeth today's sermon
AT
a) exposing my staff id to the QCC bugwatch brigade
b) upsetting collegues from my (semi) former profession and
c) sounding disrespectful to crew involved in the recent incidents...................
Let's be real in accepting that aside from an articulate few, those reporting the stories are by and large at the back of the grid and without a media release or briefing in their hand would'nt know which way their a*rse was pointing (particularly the case it seems if their pay comes from News Ltd or Sthn Cross)
Let us also be real in accepting Q has it's share of problems - many of which arise (and will continue to hangover) from the Dixon era of plundering the core business to fund wayward left field endeavours and underwrite the cash flow meanderings of JetSAR [no correspondence pls AJ still has start up and capital amortised on the Q balance sheet which is a bit like the bank forgetting it has given the business an overdraft]
Let us also be real in accepting that Q has an old tired fleet....a few old tired has been managers...and even the odd old 'has been' workers who desperately hang to an IR philosophy from another era.
Let us also be real in accepting that some of the union pitches and pushes and leaks of late have been a little amateur and in fact have totally painted the wrong picture. (To be fair to the unions, QF Corp/Media Comms have also equally been a total embarassment)
Finally for all the woes and contingent risk, let's not forget that we have other operators running aircraft around Australian Skies without liferafts, expecting a Cabin crew Member to cover TWO primary doors, ignoring Boeing directives and even one or two exploiting the opportunity of operating outside the (so-called) watchdog's area from behind the skirt of an FAOC.
Added to this we have CASA chasing cameras and chanting rhetoric rather than auditing compliance and a Minister that has his head so far up a dead bear's bum that when he finally sees the light it probably will be an endoscope.
Baseline: we are in an era where the regulatory arena is not stable and the real story should be that every Australian LAME, aircrew and operator is unified in ensuring Australia has the safest skies in the world.
Hang out the dirty sheets - but let's all be a little more outcomes focussed when it comes to explaining the stains.
here endeth today's sermon
AT
767's, Special CASA investigation teams, accusations of failing maintenance standards due cost cutting. All you need are the intials TJ somewhere in the mix and I have a horrible feeling of deja vu all over again! I hope there are no expired AD's lurking in the paperwork otherwise QF 767 crews will have plenty of time to watch the Orympics.
There is no I in TEAM but there is one in PIC and that's whose license is on the line if there is not a safe outcome to a problem.
There is no I in TEAM but there is one in PIC and that's whose license is on the line if there is not a safe outcome to a problem.
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I say, its a bit rough to blame poor ol TJ for all this, isn't it, isn't it? Putting aside all QF's problems, I want to know why the add for getting rid of your fat stomach is neally always in my posting
!
!
concerned with recent media reporting about Qantas.
"concerned ABOUT recent media reporting about Qantas."
Wish we could get someone in the media who knows at least a little about the subject matter. And that goes for the so-called "CASA spokeperson"
I survived Flight QF19 to Manila
I survived Flight QF19 to Manila - By Cecille Higgins
Yes, you and everyone else love. She probably has a T-Shirt with that "headline" written on it. This article is so cringe inducing it's crazy. OK, we all know the punters don't understand triple redundant systems but what about this fuel dumping? Would you rather, to NOT dump fuel and land overweight??
The editorialising will be rife this week. I've already come across this in another article...
"Still in possession of the best safety record in the world, there's no denying something fishy is going on at the airline.”
Clearly the depressurisation is a major event. The others... well I would feel extremely happy if those could be the only problems I encounter in my career.
It's all pretty typical I suppose. But the one thing it should demonstrate to Qantas is how precious their record is. You can have all the frequent flyer programs in the world but all this WORLDWIDE media exposure must be doing major damage to them.
Yes, you and everyone else love. She probably has a T-Shirt with that "headline" written on it. This article is so cringe inducing it's crazy. OK, we all know the punters don't understand triple redundant systems but what about this fuel dumping? Would you rather, to NOT dump fuel and land overweight??
The editorialising will be rife this week. I've already come across this in another article...
"Still in possession of the best safety record in the world, there's no denying something fishy is going on at the airline.”
Clearly the depressurisation is a major event. The others... well I would feel extremely happy if those could be the only problems I encounter in my career.
It's all pretty typical I suppose. But the one thing it should demonstrate to Qantas is how precious their record is. You can have all the frequent flyer programs in the world but all this WORLDWIDE media exposure must be doing major damage to them.