drug & booze testing
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is there a specific list from casa of what they are testing for? what is allowed? that would be the easiest way to solve most of this.
I also heard sudafed will give positive returns.
I also heard sudafed will give positive returns.
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Protocols
As flyingspike mentioned the testing is to A/NZS 4308-2001
Here is a link to an actual reference laboratory to this standard.
Sonic Clinical Institute.
The documentation is almost identical to the CASA info, so there is a good chance that this lab is the contractor.
The documentation includes typical detection times for various drug. I have included the summary here:
The one that is going to catch people out is codeine. Its detection time is 5 days after ingestion. Given that it is in many OTC preparations you need to know exactly what you take & what it contains.
I say again CODEINE up to 5 days. That means no work for 5 days after its use, even in OTC medicines.
I suggest printing it out and keeping it with your medicines.
Here is a link to an actual reference laboratory to this standard.
Sonic Clinical Institute.
The documentation is almost identical to the CASA info, so there is a good chance that this lab is the contractor.
The documentation includes typical detection times for various drug. I have included the summary here:
Drug Detection Times in Urine
The drug detection time is the time from the last dose of the drug until a negative screening result is obtained using the cut-off levels in the above table. Detection times vary with different drugs and different individuals and according to the amount and frequency of drug taken. It is important to note that whilst a drug may be excreted in the urine for a significant time, it may not reach the threshold required for a positive result. The following table lists the average detection times for a number of drugs.
The drug detection time is the time from the last dose of the drug until a negative screening result is obtained using the cut-off levels in the above table. Detection times vary with different drugs and different individuals and according to the amount and frequency of drug taken. It is important to note that whilst a drug may be excreted in the urine for a significant time, it may not reach the threshold required for a positive result. The following table lists the average detection times for a number of drugs.
I say again CODEINE up to 5 days. That means no work for 5 days after its use, even in OTC medicines.
I suggest printing it out and keeping it with your medicines.
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thanks for that, very interesting read but once again Are these the things casa is testing? If so or not is there a list like this that actually shows what casa is testing and what levels, just like the list you provided. I think that is the most valuable thing to everyone. Then there is no doubt and everyone can be confident with what is being tested, what you can go to your doctor with and say what i can and cant take.
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Silver, they are testing for ALL the above: here is a link to the CASA Final report on Drug & Alcohol testing which indicates testing to this standard. I quote from that document:
Codeine is an OPIATE.
Please please please err on the side of caution. Your doctor may not know the standard. Its your licence & your livelihood, and this testing regime is very strict ie ZERO tolerance.
6) THAT zero tolerance testing should apply to five illicit drug groups – cocaine, marijuana,
opiates, amphetamines and phencyclidine.
opiates, amphetamines and phencyclidine.
Please please please err on the side of caution. Your doctor may not know the standard. Its your licence & your livelihood, and this testing regime is very strict ie ZERO tolerance.
Thread Starter
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This could get way out of hand, I wonder if it's enforceable by the goons who are doing the testing? I think someone else mentioned this earlier here. Any thoughts from those that maybe in the know with the law?
CW
CW
Last edited by Capt Wally; 18th May 2008 at 23:23. Reason: sheeez I can't even spell a simpe word, no wonder QF don't want me !:-(
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Launch I agree with everything you have said. Including that any doctor may not know himself the standard. Hence why i was wondering if there was a CASA list of official what is allowed not allowed so if you go to the doctor for anything before getting scripts etc you can have such a list handy.
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Silversleuth, to avoid any confusion, the testing regime is ONLY for the following substances:
This is a major flaw in the whole deal, along with the need for the above information to be clearly disseminated on a online rumour network, particularly with reference to OTC codeine detection time.
You can pass the test, and still be unfit to fly with other medications. Basically if you take ANY medication, you should inform your operator and seek their aeromed guidance. If you have any doubts, don't operate.
I see this potentially heading towards a more generalised substance & fitness-to-fly issue rather than a "testing regime", in which no substance is deemed safe unless proven otherwise.
- Alcohol
- Cocaine
- marijuana
- opiates
- amphetamines
- phencyclidine
Indeed, the use or misuse of prescription and non-prescription drugs is a distinct danger in itself.
For most treatments for conditions, which are not disqualifying for flying duties for example, aviation safety issues have never been assessed. Some drugs have also been described as ‘aeromedical orphans’, where the effects on aviation safety are unknown.
This particularly applies to recently developed treatments for depressive illness, smoking, benign prostate hyperplasia, erectile dysfunction, diabetes mellitus and malaria prophylaxis.
Where medication is being taken for conditions that are potentially incapacitating, or indeed disqualifying from flying duties, but pilots are not reporting their use, there is yet another issue as to the adequacy and integrity of existing screening measures.
For most treatments for conditions, which are not disqualifying for flying duties for example, aviation safety issues have never been assessed. Some drugs have also been described as ‘aeromedical orphans’, where the effects on aviation safety are unknown.
This particularly applies to recently developed treatments for depressive illness, smoking, benign prostate hyperplasia, erectile dysfunction, diabetes mellitus and malaria prophylaxis.
Where medication is being taken for conditions that are potentially incapacitating, or indeed disqualifying from flying duties, but pilots are not reporting their use, there is yet another issue as to the adequacy and integrity of existing screening measures.
You can pass the test, and still be unfit to fly with other medications. Basically if you take ANY medication, you should inform your operator and seek their aeromed guidance. If you have any doubts, don't operate.
I see this potentially heading towards a more generalised substance & fitness-to-fly issue rather than a "testing regime", in which no substance is deemed safe unless proven otherwise.
So while flying you get a headache and take something with codeine in it for some relief in order to operate safely and now you are a criminal. S..t I would love to be the test case for this one. Imagine the headlines in the press. It would not succeed. The authorities would be ducking for cover so fast.
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Medicine Log
With reference to a previous post I have made on this thread: KEEP A MEDICE LOG. Yes, it is a hassle, but like keeping your log book up to date and reading check lists it will help to keep you out of trouble.
I was first introduced to this practice by my first commuter job back in 1986. In fact it was in their Op's manual including what medicine one could and could not take.
Just do it.
I was first introduced to this practice by my first commuter job back in 1986. In fact it was in their Op's manual including what medicine one could and could not take.
Just do it.
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"the rate of false positives in oral fluid testing is very low."
If printed on the back of the pamphlet it states;
"the rate of false positives in oral fluid testing is very low." then that is an admission that some tests WILL return a false positive, ie. one of us WILL lose our career over this!
I do however accept that any one in the workplace should be drug and alcohol free but I will only have respect for the legislators when they impose the same requirments on themselves.
We have the right to expect our elected representetives to be drug and alcohol free and submit to the same testing as members of other work places!
"the rate of false positives in oral fluid testing is very low." then that is an admission that some tests WILL return a false positive, ie. one of us WILL lose our career over this!
I do however accept that any one in the workplace should be drug and alcohol free but I will only have respect for the legislators when they impose the same requirments on themselves.
We have the right to expect our elected representetives to be drug and alcohol free and submit to the same testing as members of other work places!
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This is just a clusterf#ck, a google search for psuedoephidrine turned up this CASA Drug & Alcohol FAQ which appears to directly contradict the Safety benefits of introducing drug and alcohol testing for safety-sensitive personnel in the aviation industry (CASA/ DITRDLG) (Final Report).
The final report indicates a zero tolerance for the drugs I mentioned earlier, with the appropriate standard (A/NZS 4308-2001). The standard indicates a 5 day detection period for codeine. However the FAQ suggest a day of flight issue only for codeine.
Pseudoephedrine is listed as banned on the FAQ, but not mentioned in the Final Report!
Given that the A/NZS 4308-2001 standard assay will test for pseudoephedrine, I would be concerned taking it too (detection time indicated as 2-4 days).
CASA need to clearly annunciate:
(a) Exact substances that will be flagged as a positive.
(b) Maximum detection time for each substance.
Until there is a clear and unambiguous statement to that effect from CASA, avoid operating within the maximum detection time of any substance listed in the A/NZS 4308-2001 standard. I apologise for any previous error, as I was unaware of the FAQ.
SilverSleuth, take the A/NZS 4308-2001 standard to your doctor & discuss it.
The final report indicates a zero tolerance for the drugs I mentioned earlier, with the appropriate standard (A/NZS 4308-2001). The standard indicates a 5 day detection period for codeine. However the FAQ suggest a day of flight issue only for codeine.
Pseudoephedrine is listed as banned on the FAQ, but not mentioned in the Final Report!
Given that the A/NZS 4308-2001 standard assay will test for pseudoephedrine, I would be concerned taking it too (detection time indicated as 2-4 days).
CASA need to clearly annunciate:
(a) Exact substances that will be flagged as a positive.
(b) Maximum detection time for each substance.
Until there is a clear and unambiguous statement to that effect from CASA, avoid operating within the maximum detection time of any substance listed in the A/NZS 4308-2001 standard. I apologise for any previous error, as I was unaware of the FAQ.
SilverSleuth, take the A/NZS 4308-2001 standard to your doctor & discuss it.
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CASA has failed in it's education on this issue with Australian pilots and Airlines, Full Stop. The fact that there are this many questions being raised illustrates this perfectly, I for one still am in the dark, and I even attended the Drug and Alcohol conference road show in early '07! 
I haven't received a single information pack at home. Just seen a few throw away posters at work.
The CASA rep, and you, Flying Spike et al, refer to this young fella, non ATPL flying a lighty that crashed off the Queensland coast as a great reference for implementing this testing. As was pointed out in this conference by a Senior Chief Pilot, he wasn't conducting Commercial Ops! In fact, as I recall, he also stated that crashes attributed conclusively to Drug and/or Alcohol in Commercial Operations has not happened in a very long time, SO WHY START NOW!? It's a sham.
Questions:
1) I get a bad back every now and then, it's just one of those things that anyone can get, in fact it is stated that at least 2/3 of the population suffer from a bad back at some stage of their life. I take a Codeine based pain killer no later than 12 hours before flight (my personal limit) I feel fine after this and it gets rid of the pain, I get tested, I'M STUFFED! How is this fair?
2) The testing: Where is this done (assume Airline Ops) Public? At the Security Screening? Private? In the flight deck? In the Crew Room? Is the company required to give permission to enter their premises?
3) WHEN I get a false positive for Opiates having taken my pain killer what then? Do I get a second chance after 20mins? Not that it matters because I will still return the same result! Is the machine used in the initial testing the same fancy one that will return my eventual negative, or will it be after a few days from the lab?
4) In the mean time, my company does what for the flight? Delay it? Get another pilot in because one of their pilots has been caught as a Druggie?! That will me be great for anyone’s reputation. The flight is delayed and costs thousands of dollars and loss of face to the airline. If this got out the media will be hot onto this for sure! The airline is then faced with a shedload of negative media attention whilst waiting the result, doesn't matter though, the media and public have already judged. The airline gets the negative result back, then what? A whole heap of proverbial hits the fan in the office and all I wanted to do was my job safely, the same way I have for many years.
Too many questions... Not enough forethought by CASA.
I haven't received a single information pack at home. Just seen a few throw away posters at work.The CASA rep, and you, Flying Spike et al, refer to this young fella, non ATPL flying a lighty that crashed off the Queensland coast as a great reference for implementing this testing. As was pointed out in this conference by a Senior Chief Pilot, he wasn't conducting Commercial Ops! In fact, as I recall, he also stated that crashes attributed conclusively to Drug and/or Alcohol in Commercial Operations has not happened in a very long time, SO WHY START NOW!? It's a sham.
Questions:
1) I get a bad back every now and then, it's just one of those things that anyone can get, in fact it is stated that at least 2/3 of the population suffer from a bad back at some stage of their life. I take a Codeine based pain killer no later than 12 hours before flight (my personal limit) I feel fine after this and it gets rid of the pain, I get tested, I'M STUFFED! How is this fair?
2) The testing: Where is this done (assume Airline Ops) Public? At the Security Screening? Private? In the flight deck? In the Crew Room? Is the company required to give permission to enter their premises?
3) WHEN I get a false positive for Opiates having taken my pain killer what then? Do I get a second chance after 20mins? Not that it matters because I will still return the same result! Is the machine used in the initial testing the same fancy one that will return my eventual negative, or will it be after a few days from the lab?
4) In the mean time, my company does what for the flight? Delay it? Get another pilot in because one of their pilots has been caught as a Druggie?! That will me be great for anyone’s reputation. The flight is delayed and costs thousands of dollars and loss of face to the airline. If this got out the media will be hot onto this for sure! The airline is then faced with a shedload of negative media attention whilst waiting the result, doesn't matter though, the media and public have already judged. The airline gets the negative result back, then what? A whole heap of proverbial hits the fan in the office and all I wanted to do was my job safely, the same way I have for many years.
Too many questions... Not enough forethought by CASA.
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Check it out - ATSB report B20060169-001 -
Accidents and Incidents involving Alcohol and Drugs in Australian Civil Aviation 1 Jan 75 to 31 Mar 06. (Pub June 2006)
31 years - 36 Accidents and Incidents.
Agric-4 Business-1 Flt Trg-2 Awk-3 Sport Av-1
CHARTER-3
**PRIVATE ** 22 (61%)
Largest a/c involved was an N24 Nomad.
Quote from the report "The results of the study show that the prevalence of drugs and alcohol related incidents and accidents in Australian Civil aviation is very low."
Huge Alcohol and Drug problem for the over 5700kg and RPT Eh!
The range of drugs found also makes interesting reading. Just how effective is this testing going to be?
Accidents and Incidents involving Alcohol and Drugs in Australian Civil Aviation 1 Jan 75 to 31 Mar 06. (Pub June 2006)
31 years - 36 Accidents and Incidents.
Agric-4 Business-1 Flt Trg-2 Awk-3 Sport Av-1
CHARTER-3
**PRIVATE ** 22 (61%)
Largest a/c involved was an N24 Nomad.
Quote from the report "The results of the study show that the prevalence of drugs and alcohol related incidents and accidents in Australian Civil aviation is very low."
Huge Alcohol and Drug problem for the over 5700kg and RPT Eh!
The range of drugs found also makes interesting reading. Just how effective is this testing going to be?
What AS standards?
In the DOTARS/CASA report linked to above it states:
Yet the CASA propoganda sheet states oral fluid testing, and there is now an Australian standard for saliva testing as I linked to on the previous page.
Which is it?
A/NZS 4308-2001 sets the procedures for the collection, detection and quantification of drugs in urine and incorporates a strict chain of custody. It should be noted that there is no Australian Standard for collection, detection and quantification of drugs in saliva, hair or sweat. Only laboratories authorised and accredited with the National Association of Testing Authorities and A/NZS 4308-2001 should be used to test specimens for drugs and medico-legal requirements/standards must be met.
Which is it?
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In the UK all OTC medicines clearly list their ingredients, so it should be possible to avoid medications containing codeine. If you are now under a random testing regime, I think that in addition to a medical log you also need to become knowledgeable about what you take. The advent of the Internet makes that much easier - you don't need to wait until you take the drug, you can check now for everything you take and if necessary find out what an acceptable alternative is.
