QF pilots make a stand over blocked drains....
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QF pilots make a stand over blocked drains....
From todays SMH.
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Qantas pilot given grounds for concern
A QANTAS pilot refused to fly a Boeing 767 jet out of Sydney until a sink blocked by coffee grounds had been cleared because he feared it could endanger the craft.
The coffee revelation comes after a water spillage on a Qantas 747 flying into Bangkok last month led to the plane losing all electrical power and having to land on back-up batteries.
An investigation is under way to discover exactly what caused the leak on flight QF2 to Bangkok but in the interim Qantas has issued stringent procedures to deal with spillages on planes.
Initial reports indicate that on the January 7 Bangkok flight electrical power was lost after water from what is believed to be a blocked sink leaked through a cracked drip tray on to the main generators.
Two weeks ago a Qantas pilot refused to fly a Boeing 767 from Sydney after discovering that a galley sink had been blocked with coffee grounds.
On the pilot's insistence the maintenance staff checked the plane and are understood to have found the drip tray on the plane was cracked in exactly the same place as the one on the troubled QF2 flight into Bangkok.
A Qantas spokesperson confirmed that the sink had been blocked by coffee grounds and that the flight was delayed while engineers fixed the problem.
"The captain of the 767 requested it be cleared, which was done without need for the aircraft to be taken out of service," the spokesperson said.
Flight Attendants Association of Australia international division president Steven Reed said Qantas had reissued cabin crew with procedures on dealing with liquids on planes.
Australian Transport Safety Bureau deputy director of aviation Julian Walsh said a preliminary report into the QF2 flight would be released in the next two weeks.
Boeing spokesman Ken Morton said: "The investigation that is under way will be looking at all aspects and causes because we want to make sure that this doesn't happen again.
"If a worldwide alert was needed on coffee grounds then we would do it."
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Qantas pilot given grounds for concern
A QANTAS pilot refused to fly a Boeing 767 jet out of Sydney until a sink blocked by coffee grounds had been cleared because he feared it could endanger the craft.
The coffee revelation comes after a water spillage on a Qantas 747 flying into Bangkok last month led to the plane losing all electrical power and having to land on back-up batteries.
An investigation is under way to discover exactly what caused the leak on flight QF2 to Bangkok but in the interim Qantas has issued stringent procedures to deal with spillages on planes.
Initial reports indicate that on the January 7 Bangkok flight electrical power was lost after water from what is believed to be a blocked sink leaked through a cracked drip tray on to the main generators.
Two weeks ago a Qantas pilot refused to fly a Boeing 767 from Sydney after discovering that a galley sink had been blocked with coffee grounds.
On the pilot's insistence the maintenance staff checked the plane and are understood to have found the drip tray on the plane was cracked in exactly the same place as the one on the troubled QF2 flight into Bangkok.
A Qantas spokesperson confirmed that the sink had been blocked by coffee grounds and that the flight was delayed while engineers fixed the problem.
"The captain of the 767 requested it be cleared, which was done without need for the aircraft to be taken out of service," the spokesperson said.
Flight Attendants Association of Australia international division president Steven Reed said Qantas had reissued cabin crew with procedures on dealing with liquids on planes.
Australian Transport Safety Bureau deputy director of aviation Julian Walsh said a preliminary report into the QF2 flight would be released in the next two weeks.
Boeing spokesman Ken Morton said: "The investigation that is under way will be looking at all aspects and causes because we want to make sure that this doesn't happen again.
"If a worldwide alert was needed on coffee grounds then we would do it."
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Not just coffee...
It is not just coffee that blocks the drains...
When the Cabin crew pour milk and orange juice down the drain (especially pulpy juice) the milk curdles and you are left with a sludge the consistency of yogurt. This sludge does not flow too well...
The drains are not the best designs either, they are often too small a diameter, poorly routed and difficult to access and clean. There are many low points where sludge and gunk accumulate and block the drains...
When the Cabin crew pour milk and orange juice down the drain (especially pulpy juice) the milk curdles and you are left with a sludge the consistency of yogurt. This sludge does not flow too well...
The drains are not the best designs either, they are often too small a diameter, poorly routed and difficult to access and clean. There are many low points where sludge and gunk accumulate and block the drains...
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If a worldwide alert was needed on coffee grounds then we would do it.
We used to get this back on the Viscounts.
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The Blame Game
To 'put' something somewhere requires an intention. There is no need to make such a claim in order to explain the presence of coffee grounds in sinks and drains.
On a SIN/LHR sector in each J/C galley the crew would make and clean at least 10 bodums (coffee-plungers) of coffee and a similar number of bodums of tea. If from each of these 12 cup bodums just 5 coffee grounds or 5 tea leaves found their way into the sink, then by the end of that one sector there would be 50 coffee grounds and 50 tea leaves from each galley. Add to that the possibility that when opening the vacuum sealed packs of coffee they can suddenly give way and shower coffee around or a hole might be torn in the side of the packet which makes spillages likely.
The point is that no matter how careful the cabin crew are when cleaning these bodums SOME coffee grounds and tea leaves will inevitably end up in the sink. Even a small number when multiplied will result in an accumulation.
Before claiming cabin crew are being irresponsible and blaming them for blocked drains why don't you put yourself in their position and make up a bodum of coffee, let it brew for a while then plunge it. Come back in a few minutes and empty it and clean it. Make sure there are no grounds left on the top of the plunger as these will end up in the cups of the next drinkers, be they passengers or crew and they will complain bitterly. Try doing it in the upper deck galley on the 747 or in the front galley on the 767. Try doing it with bottles of wine, juice, water etc on the bench.
I have never ever seen cabin crew put coffee grounds or tea leaves in the sink. I have never ever seen cabin crew pour milk or yoghurt or orange juice down the sink. I have seen 'helpful' passengers pour milk or juice down the sink if they take a glass back to the galley on their way to the toilet. Working in such a confined space, it is, however, inevitable that the occasional spillage will occur.
Boeing place drip trays on the aircraft because it is highly likely that spillages or blocked drains will occur. When those drip trays are cracked the swiss cheese is all lined up.
Obira
On a SIN/LHR sector in each J/C galley the crew would make and clean at least 10 bodums (coffee-plungers) of coffee and a similar number of bodums of tea. If from each of these 12 cup bodums just 5 coffee grounds or 5 tea leaves found their way into the sink, then by the end of that one sector there would be 50 coffee grounds and 50 tea leaves from each galley. Add to that the possibility that when opening the vacuum sealed packs of coffee they can suddenly give way and shower coffee around or a hole might be torn in the side of the packet which makes spillages likely.
The point is that no matter how careful the cabin crew are when cleaning these bodums SOME coffee grounds and tea leaves will inevitably end up in the sink. Even a small number when multiplied will result in an accumulation.
Before claiming cabin crew are being irresponsible and blaming them for blocked drains why don't you put yourself in their position and make up a bodum of coffee, let it brew for a while then plunge it. Come back in a few minutes and empty it and clean it. Make sure there are no grounds left on the top of the plunger as these will end up in the cups of the next drinkers, be they passengers or crew and they will complain bitterly. Try doing it in the upper deck galley on the 747 or in the front galley on the 767. Try doing it with bottles of wine, juice, water etc on the bench.
I have never ever seen cabin crew put coffee grounds or tea leaves in the sink. I have never ever seen cabin crew pour milk or yoghurt or orange juice down the sink. I have seen 'helpful' passengers pour milk or juice down the sink if they take a glass back to the galley on their way to the toilet. Working in such a confined space, it is, however, inevitable that the occasional spillage will occur.
Boeing place drip trays on the aircraft because it is highly likely that spillages or blocked drains will occur. When those drip trays are cracked the swiss cheese is all lined up.
Obira
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I am sorry if you don't like it, but this problem has been around for at least 40 years that I personally have seen, even back on the Viscounts in the 1960s the Hosties insisted on doing it no matter how many times they were told not to.
IF what you said is true, then your Employer should provide some sort of container for these grounds to be kept in for the duration of the flight, so you don't "accidentally" put these grounds down the drains.
IF what you said is true, then your Employer should provide some sort of container for these grounds to be kept in for the duration of the flight, so you don't "accidentally" put these grounds down the drains.
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Take one problem out of the equation
http://www.nestle.com.au/Articles/Ar...r+in+taste.htm
Then try employing some Lames to do the maintenance.....novel idea
http://www.nestle.com.au/Articles/Ar...r+in+taste.htm
Then try employing some Lames to do the maintenance.....novel idea
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Coffee Plunger
Airsupport, it seems that you have never seen a coffee or tea plunger let alone tried to clean one. The cabin crew must work with what they are given. You may have seen coffee grounds in drains on Viscounts but jumping to the conclusion that they are being put there when there is another reasonable explanation for them ending up there is not helpful.
Jabawocky, I agree that that would be an excellent way to remove one problem from the equation
Obira
Jabawocky, I agree that that would be an excellent way to remove one problem from the equation
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Wouldn't a $1 deep plug sink strainer like they have on the Gulfstreams solve the problem?
Grounds, pulp, small children all caught in the strainer, lift the strainer up and empty into the bin.... sink unblocked.....
or would $1 stretch the budget?
Grounds, pulp, small children all caught in the strainer, lift the strainer up and empty into the bin.... sink unblocked.....
or would $1 stretch the budget?
Nunc est bibendum
I wonder if this would have happened if we'd stayed with the drip filter coffee (much better quality in my opinion) rather than switch to this crappy stuff.....probably not! 
It's interesting how cost cutting in one area leads to a stuff up elsewhere!
It's interesting how cost cutting in one area leads to a stuff up elsewhere!
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In my time of more than 30 years with the company blocked drains have been around.
Crew themselves have tried to avoid having this occur because they don't want to work in a galley with carpet like a soaked sponge.But this has happened for a variety of reasons....
.Poor drain design even with the new (in my time anyway) of the vacuum disposal system in the 400's which was designed for this very purpose.However,on how many sectors did these not work?
How many times would you have plastic garbage bags with multiple coffee grounds and fluid in them after a 12,13 or longer hour sector and where do you put them for landing.They are easy to tear and then guess what comes out ......water with coffee grounds,tea leaves,orange juice etc...
.Accidents in the galley.When you are rushing with a meal service and there are only a few of you sometimes these things happen.It's true that there are some lazy cabin crew but that is symptomatic of every profession you care to look at including pilots,managers,teachers......any group.
.A build up of foreign matter over time.
The point I'm interested in is why all of a sudden after more than 30 years is this now a problem.
Electricity was not invented last week and although the new aircaft have glass cockpits and other new wonderful toys all aircaft had avionics bays when I started.
We always had the problem of an almost tidal surge coming out of the galleys on descent and used more blankets than you could think of.
Is there something else that the company has decided not to do in order to save money and this is allowing the water to get into places it has the potential to do a lot of harm?
Crew themselves have tried to avoid having this occur because they don't want to work in a galley with carpet like a soaked sponge.But this has happened for a variety of reasons....
.Poor drain design even with the new (in my time anyway) of the vacuum disposal system in the 400's which was designed for this very purpose.However,on how many sectors did these not work?
How many times would you have plastic garbage bags with multiple coffee grounds and fluid in them after a 12,13 or longer hour sector and where do you put them for landing.They are easy to tear and then guess what comes out ......water with coffee grounds,tea leaves,orange juice etc...
.Accidents in the galley.When you are rushing with a meal service and there are only a few of you sometimes these things happen.It's true that there are some lazy cabin crew but that is symptomatic of every profession you care to look at including pilots,managers,teachers......any group.
.A build up of foreign matter over time.
The point I'm interested in is why all of a sudden after more than 30 years is this now a problem.
Electricity was not invented last week and although the new aircaft have glass cockpits and other new wonderful toys all aircaft had avionics bays when I started.
We always had the problem of an almost tidal surge coming out of the galleys on descent and used more blankets than you could think of.
Is there something else that the company has decided not to do in order to save money and this is allowing the water to get into places it has the potential to do a lot of harm?
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Why would you design an aircraft in such a way that the electrical bits are directly underneath the plumbing?
Last edited by NAMPS; 2nd Feb 2008 at 23:28. Reason: correction
Keg, it wasn't about cost cutting. The change from filter coffee to bodum coffee was as a result of inflight trials. The bodum coffee received better reviews from passengers than did the filter coffee. Everyone assumes that every decision made is about cost cutting, which is not always the case.
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Rubbish.
It was cost cutting that led to QF's decision to replace the inventum drip filter style coffee with these cheap plastic bodums.
Taste???? You have got to be joking. It can't be kept satisfactorily hot for longer than 5 minutes as it isn't insulated [see other airlines product] and the taste is appalling.
I can't tell you how many cups come back half full.
The other problem that QF ignores are the incidences of burns caused by the inordinate amount of pressure that is needed to plunge these bodums.
On occasions you have to almost stand on them with one palm to plunge only to have them "let go" all at once with the resultant spout of hot liquid erupt out scalding faces, chests, arms and hands.
Does QF know of these issues??
Yep. We are told to discard the contents if they resist being plunged and try again?????
OH & S????? Not when it comes to spending money. They don't give a flying F@ck.
It was cost cutting that led to QF's decision to replace the inventum drip filter style coffee with these cheap plastic bodums.
Taste???? You have got to be joking. It can't be kept satisfactorily hot for longer than 5 minutes as it isn't insulated [see other airlines product] and the taste is appalling.
I can't tell you how many cups come back half full.
The other problem that QF ignores are the incidences of burns caused by the inordinate amount of pressure that is needed to plunge these bodums.
On occasions you have to almost stand on them with one palm to plunge only to have them "let go" all at once with the resultant spout of hot liquid erupt out scalding faces, chests, arms and hands.
Does QF know of these issues??
Yep. We are told to discard the contents if they resist being plunged and try again?????
OH & S????? Not when it comes to spending money. They don't give a flying F@ck.
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Lowerlobe is correct
We are directed to pour coffee, OJ, milk etc into the garbage bins. These bins, in all galleys, are a hard plastic shell lined with a plastic bag. Often the shell corners have holes in them from rough handling. The plastic bag liners are easily pierced by glass, aluminium foil etc.
The result is leaks in the galley during flight and often a tidal flood on landing.
The ice drawers at door 2 crossover, on the 400, regulaly spill out on landing and they only have ice in them!!!
Good on the 767 Captain for making a stand.
We are directed to pour coffee, OJ, milk etc into the garbage bins. These bins, in all galleys, are a hard plastic shell lined with a plastic bag. Often the shell corners have holes in them from rough handling. The plastic bag liners are easily pierced by glass, aluminium foil etc.
The result is leaks in the galley during flight and often a tidal flood on landing.
The ice drawers at door 2 crossover, on the 400, regulaly spill out on landing and they only have ice in them!!!
Good on the 767 Captain for making a stand.
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I reckon there is no need to point fingers/accuse any particular party. As with most things in life, the whole issue has not one single culprit, but many.
1. The drain design is probably silly and could be much better
2. Maintenance of the drains could be better, not because of anyones laziness (although that too) but various reasons, time constraints, cost cutting, manpower, you name it, just many factors in this one alone
3. The location of plumbing/galleys over main equipment bays, placement of GCU's in close prox so it can be swamped with water at the same time.
4. Flight attendants putting stuff in the drains that doesn't belong there. So many factors in this one again, sometimes due to laziness, sometimes accidental, most times because of poor procedures/tools, lack of manpower, the whole range...noones single fault. And to be honest the drain system SHOULD be able to handle accidental AND the occasional intentional spills by lazy people. Yes it should never happen, but it always will. And a good drain system has to be able to handle that scenario.
5. cracked driptrays, bad inspections.....
What i am trying to say...... there is no single faction/procedure at fault here, it is a bigger picture problem...no need to accuse engineers for not cleaning, or flight attendants for pouring, or pilots for flaring too high...it is all of us, and management and.... and some more....
1. The drain design is probably silly and could be much better
2. Maintenance of the drains could be better, not because of anyones laziness (although that too) but various reasons, time constraints, cost cutting, manpower, you name it, just many factors in this one alone
3. The location of plumbing/galleys over main equipment bays, placement of GCU's in close prox so it can be swamped with water at the same time.
4. Flight attendants putting stuff in the drains that doesn't belong there. So many factors in this one again, sometimes due to laziness, sometimes accidental, most times because of poor procedures/tools, lack of manpower, the whole range...noones single fault. And to be honest the drain system SHOULD be able to handle accidental AND the occasional intentional spills by lazy people. Yes it should never happen, but it always will. And a good drain system has to be able to handle that scenario.
5. cracked driptrays, bad inspections.....
What i am trying to say...... there is no single faction/procedure at fault here, it is a bigger picture problem...no need to accuse engineers for not cleaning, or flight attendants for pouring, or pilots for flaring too high...it is all of us, and management and.... and some more....
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The cabin crew must work with what they are given. You may have seen coffee grounds in drains on Viscounts but jumping to the conclusion that they are being put there when there is another reasonable explanation for them ending up there is not helpful.
Back in the 1960s the Hosties also said it wasn't them that did it.
IF you must dispose of these coffee grinds in flight, and the Company does not provide a suitable container, even the toilet would be preferable to the galley drain.
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Nudlaug is spot on, no individual or individual group is solely to blame.
Just noticed another hole in the swiss cheese:
We are presently disposing of far more coffee grinds because some of the coffee batches are making the plunger seize; latest cheap brand of coffee.
Just noticed another hole in the swiss cheese:
Originally Posted by speedbirdhouse
The other problem that QF ignores are the incidences of burns caused by the inordinate amount of pressure that is needed to plunge these bodums.
On occasions you have to almost stand on them with one palm to plunge only to have them "let go" all at once with the resultant spout of hot liquid erupt out scalding faces, chests, arms and hands.
Does QF know of these issues??
Yep. We are told to discard the contents if they resist being plunged and try again?????
On occasions you have to almost stand on them with one palm to plunge only to have them "let go" all at once with the resultant spout of hot liquid erupt out scalding faces, chests, arms and hands.
Does QF know of these issues??
Yep. We are told to discard the contents if they resist being plunged and try again?????
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preventive maintanence
Try telling a qf hostie what to do? They are the main cause for these problems, they are trained but still pour whatever done the sinks because they are lazy, then once the drain is blocked they come bitching to the engineer saying they haven't done their job properly. Engineers have been dealing with this same crap from the beginning! pour the coffee down the toilet and flush the left over ice down the toilets at the end of every sector and pour a couple of mugs of boiling water down the drains at the end of every sector. problem fixed for good, but it will never happen!
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As NAMPS has alluded to, I think we're all missing the point here. Surely the question is why any aircraft (and particularly one with as much in-built redundancy as a 747) is susceptible to coffee grounds blocking a drain.
Am I missing something?!
Am I missing something?!