Clearances Issued by Flight Data Coordinators
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TOPS always got the strips and the plan once an acft departed and they religioulsy cross checked the time additions and route information.
What would surprise you even more is that we know each other as I even was a flight service flight data at one stage
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Tobzalp,
They must have been checking their dinner orders and swearing at being bumped in the ED roster then.
WOW, I know someone on TOPS
Old history in any case and irrelevant to the thread.
They must have been checking their dinner orders and swearing at being bumped in the ED roster then.
WOW, I know someone on TOPS
Old history in any case and irrelevant to the thread.
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Accountability
I want to know when someone is going to run the ruler over AsA RE; it's "business practices". As alluded to in an earlier post, this may have implications for hidden costs (cost 'savings') being passed onto the customers. In the same way that going TIBA costs AsA naught, and in fact the decisions leading up to staffing levels requiring TIBA have probably saved AsA money and gotten bonuses paid along the way, yet costs the customer heaps. Hopefully, somenone might do the sums one day, and work out how AsA penny pinching may be costing mega bucks to industry/carbon emissions/ etc etc.
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Of course no-one noted that to take on this extra task the TFDC needs to divest some of their curent work to the under-staffed operational controllers who are already have other tasks (aside from separating traffic) heaped upon them (eg flightwatch).
Last edited by Chapi; 16th Dec 2007 at 12:34.
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Chapi,
To Quote Airservices Intranet Employment Opportunities:
Yep, they are recruiting FDCs.
To Quote Airservices Intranet Employment Opportunities:
We are seeking suitably qualified and highly motivated candidates interested in performing the role of a Flight Data Co-ordinator in the Brisbane Centre.
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As one of the FDC mentioned a few facts should be put forward
1. Brisbane is recruiting because we are, after losing 5 people (about 30% of our complement) in 8 months, just a little under established numbers.
2. Great discussion with in the FDC ranks has ensued due to this proposal and the majority see the problems of licencing, both ATC wise and radio, and the advisablity of doing Perth and Adelaide from ML or Cairns from BN just a little on the nose.
BTW makespeed250 - the system in melbourne of using FDCs to hand write QNHs and sigments instead of receiving them at the controllers position electronically will soon be a thing of the past - controllers will soon be using the tools that they have had for the last 7 odd years
1. Brisbane is recruiting because we are, after losing 5 people (about 30% of our complement) in 8 months, just a little under established numbers.
2. Great discussion with in the FDC ranks has ensued due to this proposal and the majority see the problems of licencing, both ATC wise and radio, and the advisablity of doing Perth and Adelaide from ML or Cairns from BN just a little on the nose.
BTW makespeed250 - the system in melbourne of using FDCs to hand write QNHs and sigments instead of receiving them at the controllers position electronically will soon be a thing of the past - controllers will soon be using the tools that they have had for the last 7 odd years
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D.N.S it not you 
One controller who transfered south bemusedly related, when he visited after cleaning up some personal business, how he was soundly berated for having the audacity to utilise the system to graphically display the QNH rather than wait for the FDC to arrive with the paper copy and mud map.
One controller who transfered south bemusedly related, when he visited after cleaning up some personal business, how he was soundly berated for having the audacity to utilise the system to graphically display the QNH rather than wait for the FDC to arrive with the paper copy and mud map.
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I must admit, it is easier to coord with the Indons than Melbourne. Lets use the machine properly. If it is good enough for Sydney app and the sectors to the north to let the messaging do the work, it has to be good enough for the lazy backwater procedural sectors in the middle of Fk'n nowhere.
Morning all.
First post after 10 years of just reading so don't beat me up too much just yet. Background - 16.5 years as a Flight service officer.
Time to play the devils advocate. As an FSO I "issued" thousands of clearances to acft, or did I. Wasn't I just "relaying" the clearance as issued by a licensed ATC. Yes, as an FSO I was also licensed but wasn't I still just the messanger. I realise there are radio licence issues here as well but at the end of the day for suitably trained staff the task isn't rocket science.
Having said that, and having been made redundant from the organisation in question, I can understand where folks are coming from in regard to the levels of staffing or lack thereof. Has a FSO ever made a mistake "issuing" a clearance to an acft too bloody right they have. Has an ATC ever made the same mistake, too bloody right they have. At the end of the day while we have humans invloved in any process there is a potential for something to go wrong.
Well thats bound to get me flamed.
Hoss58
First post after 10 years of just reading so don't beat me up too much just yet. Background - 16.5 years as a Flight service officer.
Time to play the devils advocate. As an FSO I "issued" thousands of clearances to acft, or did I. Wasn't I just "relaying" the clearance as issued by a licensed ATC. Yes, as an FSO I was also licensed but wasn't I still just the messanger. I realise there are radio licence issues here as well but at the end of the day for suitably trained staff the task isn't rocket science.
Having said that, and having been made redundant from the organisation in question, I can understand where folks are coming from in regard to the levels of staffing or lack thereof. Has a FSO ever made a mistake "issuing" a clearance to an acft too bloody right they have. Has an ATC ever made the same mistake, too bloody right they have. At the end of the day while we have humans invloved in any process there is a potential for something to go wrong.
Well thats bound to get me flamed.
Hoss58
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Can FDCs issue block clearances?
Yes they can, provided the training is to the standard required.
Are FDCs licenced to do this?
Not too sure about this, and needs to be checked.
Is it likely to happen anytime soon?
Given current staffing, I wouldn't think so.
As a TL Stando and TL Procedures during my 5 years on TOPS, it didn't happen when I was there, except when we thought there might have been a problem, or for flex tracks.
Hoss58,
Agree with you. It doesn't matter who issues the clearance, there is always the possibility of an error. The training and procedures need to be robust enough to prevent this as much as possible.
BTW Tobsalp, I'm programmed to be in Aisle 1 from Feb 2008. Can't escape me, bro'.
Yes they can, provided the training is to the standard required.
Are FDCs licenced to do this?
Not too sure about this, and needs to be checked.
Is it likely to happen anytime soon?
Given current staffing, I wouldn't think so.
TOPS always got the strips and the plan once an acft departed and they religioulsy cross checked the time additions and route information.
Hoss58,
Agree with you. It doesn't matter who issues the clearance, there is always the possibility of an error. The training and procedures need to be robust enough to prevent this as much as possible.
BTW Tobsalp, I'm programmed to be in Aisle 1 from Feb 2008. Can't escape me, bro'.
Hoss58,
As you say, as an FSO, you "relayed" clearances.
Unless I've misunderstood the thread, the proposal is that FDCs will select/decide on/create a clearance and then give it to the pilot.
As you say, as an FSO, you "relayed" clearances.
Unless I've misunderstood the thread, the proposal is that FDCs will select/decide on/create a clearance and then give it to the pilot.
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Clarification time again
FDCs were never going to
they were to issue the clearance generated by the system (ie without the benefit of a controller looking over and authorising/amending the clearance) from an electronic strip.
The main problem would be accounatibility - who would carry the can when it all went pear shaped, the FDC, the Data Dude, the Twr specialist, the TMU specialist, the manager who approved the process, the AGM who want it to go ahead to save the equivalent of ATC 10 salaries. WHO???
It now looks like an ex-melbourne manager who now works for CASA may be prevailed upon into looking at this with a view to smoothing all the bumps it has already raised. Woe be unto us all!
FDCs were never going to
select/decide on/create a clearance and then give it to the pilot.
The main problem would be accounatibility - who would carry the can when it all went pear shaped, the FDC, the Data Dude, the Twr specialist, the TMU specialist, the manager who approved the process, the AGM who want it to go ahead to save the equivalent of ATC 10 salaries. WHO???
It now looks like an ex-melbourne manager who now works for CASA may be prevailed upon into looking at this with a view to smoothing all the bumps it has already raised. Woe be unto us all!
Hi Peuce
I see your point
I guess the question I would ask is, are we talking about the FDC actually issuing/generating the clearance or just relaying the clearance after it has been "issued" by an ATC/automatic system generation. Also you raise some good points about the legalities/accountabilities of the situation.
If and I know its a big if- we are talking about AsA- the issue is dealt with appropriately i.e training /legals might this not free up some valuable ATC time for what is argueably after all the most important part of the job and that is keeping flying things from bumping into each other.
I guess another aspect is if FDC's were trained to do this job might there be some savings in wages and thus some reductions in cost that possiblly could be passed on to the industry. Lets face it every little bit helps.
Hoss58
I see your point
I guess the question I would ask is, are we talking about the FDC actually issuing/generating the clearance or just relaying the clearance after it has been "issued" by an ATC/automatic system generation. Also you raise some good points about the legalities/accountabilities of the situation.
If and I know its a big if- we are talking about AsA- the issue is dealt with appropriately i.e training /legals might this not free up some valuable ATC time for what is argueably after all the most important part of the job and that is keeping flying things from bumping into each other.
I guess another aspect is if FDC's were trained to do this job might there be some savings in wages and thus some reductions in cost that possiblly could be passed on to the industry. Lets face it every little bit helps.
Hoss58
Hoss58,
Yes, why not save a few bucks ... and a few ATC positions
While we're at it ....
How about we recruit and train some people to a skill level that permits them to provide DTI in G Airspace. That should free up a few G Airspace-only ATC positions and bodies. Don't know what we'd call them though ...
Yes, why not save a few bucks ... and a few ATC positions
- If it's legally kosher
- If there's appropriate training provided
- If there's enough FDCs available
- If there's appropriate equipment available
While we're at it ....
How about we recruit and train some people to a skill level that permits them to provide DTI in G Airspace. That should free up a few G Airspace-only ATC positions and bodies. Don't know what we'd call them though ...
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Selection of clearance
To clarify the selection of clearances (at least in Melbourne) the clearance selected is based on the departure runway and arrival runway in use. For example while Melbourne is on runway 16 arrivals 27 departures all jets requiring 16 will be issued a BISON SID. If we are 16 only they get the standard (DOSEL/NONIX etc).
If this goes wrong and it is not picked up along the way then a departure from 16 will unexpectedly turn across the 27 departure path. In other words this one wrong clearance can cause a BOS pretty much on its own.
To suggest that the clearances are computer generated overstates what is actually done.
Blue
If this goes wrong and it is not picked up along the way then a departure from 16 will unexpectedly turn across the 27 departure path. In other words this one wrong clearance can cause a BOS pretty much on its own.
To suggest that the clearances are computer generated overstates what is actually done.
Blue