Oz Based Cathay FO's
As a QF A330 FO I pulled in slightly over 162K last year (not including superannuation).
And that, IMHO, is what it is worth to do the job.
And that, IMHO, is what it is worth to do the job.
Skyscanner, a B744 S/O making better than 160K has got to be the local whore who flys anytime called with no personal life. What about 100/30 and 900/365?
I know quite a few near the top of the bidding who enjoy life and make around $150. I'd think that's about it if you want a life. I must say, however, that it is no bad thing to be able to fly your butt off when you have a target of dollars to make. I don't mean your first million, but the odd emergency.
I know quite a few near the top of the bidding who enjoy life and make around $150. I'd think that's about it if you want a life. I must say, however, that it is no bad thing to be able to fly your butt off when you have a target of dollars to make. I don't mean your first million, but the odd emergency.
So what, in your opinion, is barely sufficient?
The point I was trying to make is that 160K is a reasonable take for someone flying long haul ops - in my opinion. This is not a figure for doing 800-900hrs stick per annum.
I should also add that my figures are for someone rotating between pattern and blank line, like yours truly. Therefore my senior bretheren, who are permanent pattern line holders, would be doing better than 160K.
The point I was trying to make is that 160K is a reasonable take for someone flying long haul ops - in my opinion. This is not a figure for doing 800-900hrs stick per annum.
I should also add that my figures are for someone rotating between pattern and blank line, like yours truly. Therefore my senior bretheren, who are permanent pattern line holders, would be doing better than 160K.
Let's compare apples with apples
Very few (if any) QF -400 SOs are earning over $160K a year. As Mustafagander said, $150K is closer to the mark.
This figure includes divisor pay/overtime, DTA and allowances. Therefore, to compare QF and CX pay objectively then perhaps housing allowance, 13mth pay, profit share (!) etc should be added to the CX base pay rates.
FYI the COS 99 base pay for a first yr Oz based FO is $118K but then adding hourly duty pay and super takes gross pay to about $145K. Meal allowances are additional to that, but are generally less than what QF pays.
This figure includes divisor pay/overtime, DTA and allowances. Therefore, to compare QF and CX pay objectively then perhaps housing allowance, 13mth pay, profit share (!) etc should be added to the CX base pay rates.
FYI the COS 99 base pay for a first yr Oz based FO is $118K but then adding hourly duty pay and super takes gross pay to about $145K. Meal allowances are additional to that, but are generally less than what QF pays.
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Don't shoot the messenger, I am just reporting what I know. Out of everyone on my course, (12) no one earned under $155K and we have only been in under 4 years (thus half way up the list). As for stick limits, a lot are up over 800 (around 15-20 every roster are stick limited 900/365) and still have plenty of time off.
Nunc est bibendum
Are you guys going off the pay slip (which includes all your allowances)?
I'm going to have to start thinking about the way I do my figures. Some people obviously include/exclude allowances, super, per diem, dta, whatever so I'm not sure we're ever comparing apples with apples.
I'm going to have to start thinking about the way I do my figures. Some people obviously include/exclude allowances, super, per diem, dta, whatever so I'm not sure we're ever comparing apples with apples.
SkyScanner
OK in which case we aren’t comparing Apples with Apples. What is the basic salary excluding all allowances, super etc. The CX salary which I admit is crap is the raw salary not fluffed up by allowance, hourly duty pay, over time, profit share and super.
OK in which case we aren’t comparing Apples with Apples. What is the basic salary excluding all allowances, super etc. The CX salary which I admit is crap is the raw salary not fluffed up by allowance, hourly duty pay, over time, profit share and super.
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Skyscanner
For all pilots employed after around 2000 (approx), in QF, that figure also includes super ( and allowances) as they are in division 6. If you we're employed before that (as in Keg), you would be in division 3, where most of your super does not appear in that figure. If you've been in for less than 4 years, I'd suggeat you are in the first group. So as Keg says, it's not apples and apples.
For all pilots employed after around 2000 (approx), in QF, that figure also includes super ( and allowances) as they are in division 6. If you we're employed before that (as in Keg), you would be in division 3, where most of your super does not appear in that figure. If you've been in for less than 4 years, I'd suggeat you are in the first group. So as Keg says, it's not apples and apples.
Last edited by I'm Driving; 16th Dec 2007 at 21:50.
OK, the basic salary is as follows.
You are paid:
Divisor credit hours for the Airbus are currently at 160hrs per bid period. Min Guarantee is 151 hrs per BP.
There are 6.5 bid periods in a year. As an example, using the Year 10 A330 FO hourly rate of $134.81 and working on the basis that you are a pattern line holder accruing 160 hrs per bid period this would see the following:
6.5 x 160 = 1040 hrs + 6 x Training days at 5.5hrs = 33 hrs.
Total 1073 hrs x 134.81 = $144, 651.
Add a further $3258 for Tech Crew Reimbursement (never been able to figure out what this is about - but I will gladly accept it anyway!)
Sub-Total $147,909.
Add another 18-20 K for DTA and meal allowances (which are largely tax free) you would come up with about 167K.
This does not include super, whether it be the Division 3 Defined Benefit Scheme (now closed to new entrants) or the Division 6 Contribution Scheme. Superannuation salary is based on 132 hrs per BP.
Now I stress that these are credit hours - not stick hours. We get a minimum daily credit of 5hrs30mins for each day at work Example: Flight to Brisbane - overnight - home to Sydney is 11 hrs pay even if stick time is about 3 hrs.
Raise the divisor = more hours = more pay. A330 is on 160 hr division whereas 744 usually on 175hrs and sometimes greater.
The above does not include Overtime which starts accruing after 12 hrs duty time (very significant on the 744 - a SYD-LAX-SYD sector usually adds 8hrs OT). Not a lot of OT on the Bus, usually only on the Mumbai flights and the soon to be commenced AKL-LAX-AKL.
Want to know about 744 SO's? 3 year rate (as an example) is $89.25. Apply that to a divisor of 175 hrs per BP, add the 18-20K in allowances and probably around 6-8 in OT.
Want to know about A330 SO's? 3 year rate is $84.96. Use 160 hrs per BP as a guid. Allowances similar. Not much OT to add.
The difficulty is that the we are not paid a straight salary. We are paid wages for hours worked. Therefore it can be difficult to do a straight comparison with another carrier.
Clear?
You are paid:
either the credited hours for the bid period, or Min Guarantee whichever is greater.
There are 6.5 bid periods in a year. As an example, using the Year 10 A330 FO hourly rate of $134.81 and working on the basis that you are a pattern line holder accruing 160 hrs per bid period this would see the following:
6.5 x 160 = 1040 hrs + 6 x Training days at 5.5hrs = 33 hrs.
Total 1073 hrs x 134.81 = $144, 651.
Add a further $3258 for Tech Crew Reimbursement (never been able to figure out what this is about - but I will gladly accept it anyway!)
Sub-Total $147,909.
Add another 18-20 K for DTA and meal allowances (which are largely tax free) you would come up with about 167K.
This does not include super, whether it be the Division 3 Defined Benefit Scheme (now closed to new entrants) or the Division 6 Contribution Scheme. Superannuation salary is based on 132 hrs per BP.
Now I stress that these are credit hours - not stick hours. We get a minimum daily credit of 5hrs30mins for each day at work Example: Flight to Brisbane - overnight - home to Sydney is 11 hrs pay even if stick time is about 3 hrs.
Raise the divisor = more hours = more pay. A330 is on 160 hr division whereas 744 usually on 175hrs and sometimes greater.
The above does not include Overtime which starts accruing after 12 hrs duty time (very significant on the 744 - a SYD-LAX-SYD sector usually adds 8hrs OT). Not a lot of OT on the Bus, usually only on the Mumbai flights and the soon to be commenced AKL-LAX-AKL.
Want to know about 744 SO's? 3 year rate (as an example) is $89.25. Apply that to a divisor of 175 hrs per BP, add the 18-20K in allowances and probably around 6-8 in OT.
Want to know about A330 SO's? 3 year rate is $84.96. Use 160 hrs per BP as a guid. Allowances similar. Not much OT to add.
The difficulty is that the we are not paid a straight salary. We are paid wages for hours worked. Therefore it can be difficult to do a straight comparison with another carrier.
Clear?
Last edited by OhSpareMe; 17th Dec 2007 at 00:20.
Why do you include allowances as if they are income? They are to pay for meals whilst in a slip port. By saying that they are income, you are inviting the ATO to look at finding further ways to tax them.
Originally, airline allowances in Oz weren't taxed but too many people included them in their income when they went to the bank for a loan. The ATO got wind of this and wanted to fully tax the allowances. Strong lobbying by AIPA and QF Flight Ops management resulted in the taxation of allowances being tied to Federal Public Service rates.
Originally, airline allowances in Oz weren't taxed but too many people included them in their income when they went to the bank for a loan. The ATO got wind of this and wanted to fully tax the allowances. Strong lobbying by AIPA and QF Flight Ops management resulted in the taxation of allowances being tied to Federal Public Service rates.
Last edited by Going Boeing; 17th Dec 2007 at 01:56.
They are to pay for meals whilst in a slip port.
I knew I was doing something wrong...
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OhSpareMe
Good run down, only thing is the super. Just as a clarification, For division 3 I think you'll find it's based on 170 hours. Div 1 and 2 are based on 132 hours (all in longhaul, shorthaul is based on 59 stick hours). Now What in Total does the Cathay guy get? Inclusive of Super, allowances etc.... Sound almost the same to me, but it's on day one. As mentioned above, OhSpareMe's Calculations are on 10th year.
Good run down, only thing is the super. Just as a clarification, For division 3 I think you'll find it's based on 170 hours. Div 1 and 2 are based on 132 hours (all in longhaul, shorthaul is based on 59 stick hours). Now What in Total does the Cathay guy get? Inclusive of Super, allowances etc.... Sound almost the same to me, but it's on day one. As mentioned above, OhSpareMe's Calculations are on 10th year.
Last edited by I'm Driving; 17th Dec 2007 at 01:35.
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A330 FO getting paid 90K in Australia. Thats disgracefull..... Thats.. thas like J* wages. Thats what most A330 S/O start on at QF....... Wake up
TL aren't allowences for buying flash pairs of sunnies for needy tarts
TL aren't allowences for buying flash pairs of sunnies for needy tarts
Why do you include allowances as if they are income? They are to pay for meals whilst in a slip port. By saying that they are income, you are inviting the ATO to look at finding further ways to tax them.
The allowances include DTA which is used for incidentals other than food. (laundry, phone calls, etc)
Spending allowances on meals in slip ports? Hardly. Mine usually get wasted on the liquid variety! This is why I am often fanging for something to eat when I get on the jet. Don't ever get between me and crew snacks.
I'm Driving - thanks for the super clarification. I based this on the 10 year scale because, as you know, you can't direct entry into an FO slot in QF. For interest, I started on the 8 year scale as a Bus FO.
So I wonder what would an equivalent 8 year FO on a CX A330 be on? (Sydney based that is).
I included the SO rates so people could have a go at ballparking the pay.
Yes, you would be better off in the pay department from Day One as a CX FO in comparison to a QF SO B744. But what about after that?
An 8th year CX Airbus F/O in Sydney is on a base of $143,268.00 (4th year Senior F/O pay. Correct me if I'm wrong Titan!).
From Jan 08 this figure goes up a few percent.
The additions to this (if you want to impress the bank manager and/or hosties
) are overtime, Hourly Duty Pay, meal + laundry allowances and 15.5% super.
From Jan 08 this figure goes up a few percent.
The additions to this (if you want to impress the bank manager and/or hosties
) are overtime, Hourly Duty Pay, meal + laundry allowances and 15.5% super.
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Depends on a lot of things. Most S/O's getting F/O slots NOW have about 4-5 years in the company.
If you believe the rumours, and there is some cause to do so, then any S/O JOINING now can probably look forward to a much shortened time to a window seat.
If you believe the rumours, and there is some cause to do so, then any S/O JOINING now can probably look forward to a much shortened time to a window seat.
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New joiners are being told (in the check to line interview) that if they want it, they'll be waiting between 2 and 3 years to F/O.
Enjoy seeing the world, because your promotion will be to a domestic type, make the most of it.
But as always, believe nothing of what you hear and only half of what you see.
Enjoy seeing the world, because your promotion will be to a domestic type, make the most of it.
But as always, believe nothing of what you hear and only half of what you see.
