REx Management – “OUTthere” or “OUT of there”
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Gas-Chamber,
The evidence indicates you are wrong concerning the 'older guys'. This movement of pilot labour is global and affecting Jet operators in our regon including Cathay and Dragon Air as well as Turboprop operators such as Qantaslink and REX. I know many senior pilots in their 40's and 50's who have exercised their free market prerogative and moved to better paying positions.
A decade ago there were few opportunities for the 'older guys', but now with the combination of current 'user pay' recruitment ethics at the LCC's and recognition of a global shortage by legacy carriers, age is not a barrier and in this respect I think Krusty 34 is right to pursue the initiatives at REX to try and retain the flight department corporate memory before it is too late.
The evidence indicates you are wrong concerning the 'older guys'. This movement of pilot labour is global and affecting Jet operators in our regon including Cathay and Dragon Air as well as Turboprop operators such as Qantaslink and REX. I know many senior pilots in their 40's and 50's who have exercised their free market prerogative and moved to better paying positions.
A decade ago there were few opportunities for the 'older guys', but now with the combination of current 'user pay' recruitment ethics at the LCC's and recognition of a global shortage by legacy carriers, age is not a barrier and in this respect I think Krusty 34 is right to pursue the initiatives at REX to try and retain the flight department corporate memory before it is too late.
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Oracle, agree with much already put forward by those who are much closer to Rex than I am.
But, none of it escapes the fact that there are not enough younger guys who want to make a career at the regionals. So the flight ops department just has to start thinking outside their traditional square or face further downsizing.
40 and 50 is no longer considered old in today's employment climate - Emirates etc will quite happily recruit and train 50 year olds.
By "older guys" I was really alluding to 60 year olds who are sometimes forced to retire from overseas at that age but who still have 5 good years left in them. The home industry should not waste these people at times such as this. QF probably needs to also take heed if it wants to stay in the regional game too.
Also, because of their age, 60 year olds won't be blocking the careers of those who do elect to make a life with the regionals. Come the next downturn, at least the younger guys then stuck in the regionals will have something of a career path even if it's not what they had hoped for.
And by all means load the ticket price by six or seven bucks if it will fund a decent pay-rise.
Hell, load it by 10 to chip in for training costs.
But, none of it escapes the fact that there are not enough younger guys who want to make a career at the regionals. So the flight ops department just has to start thinking outside their traditional square or face further downsizing.
40 and 50 is no longer considered old in today's employment climate - Emirates etc will quite happily recruit and train 50 year olds.
By "older guys" I was really alluding to 60 year olds who are sometimes forced to retire from overseas at that age but who still have 5 good years left in them. The home industry should not waste these people at times such as this. QF probably needs to also take heed if it wants to stay in the regional game too.
Also, because of their age, 60 year olds won't be blocking the careers of those who do elect to make a life with the regionals. Come the next downturn, at least the younger guys then stuck in the regionals will have something of a career path even if it's not what they had hoped for.
And by all means load the ticket price by six or seven bucks if it will fund a decent pay-rise.
Hell, load it by 10 to chip in for training costs.
Gidday ORACLE,
sucinct and intelligent as always.
aircraft, I know I'm going to regret even giving you the broadband space, but here goes.
Your accusation that I am a victim of "hearsay and or/chinese wispers" is insulting. It only further reinforces your detachment from the true situation at REX. Mangement did check the numbers and they did agree with the arithmetic. Their decision not to proceed with the proposal was driven by ideoligy, and a mis-reading of the true seriousness of the situation. Having said that, they are now acutely aware of the danger, but are unable to come to grips with their previous inaction! Obviously you do not know who I am. If you did you would realise that my knowledge of what goes on behind closed doors at REX is far superior to your own.
Now, I don't intend to get into a p!ssing contest with you. Suffice to say your posts appear to be slidding more into the personal, as you continue to seek justification for an unwinnable arguement.
Please feel free to post your answer to Hugh Jarse's request. I too look forward to your response. But consider this, Hugh is a highly intelligent professional with his finger on the pulse. If you reply with nonsense, you will only destroy whatever credibility you may think you had!
Have a nice day.
sucinct and intelligent as always.
aircraft, I know I'm going to regret even giving you the broadband space, but here goes. Your accusation that I am a victim of "hearsay and or/chinese wispers" is insulting. It only further reinforces your detachment from the true situation at REX. Mangement did check the numbers and they did agree with the arithmetic. Their decision not to proceed with the proposal was driven by ideoligy, and a mis-reading of the true seriousness of the situation. Having said that, they are now acutely aware of the danger, but are unable to come to grips with their previous inaction! Obviously you do not know who I am. If you did you would realise that my knowledge of what goes on behind closed doors at REX is far superior to your own.
Now, I don't intend to get into a p!ssing contest with you. Suffice to say your posts appear to be slidding more into the personal, as you continue to seek justification for an unwinnable arguement.
Please feel free to post your answer to Hugh Jarse's request. I too look forward to your response. But consider this, Hugh is a highly intelligent professional with his finger on the pulse. If you reply with nonsense, you will only destroy whatever credibility you may think you had!
Have a nice day.
All we hear today is pilot salaries and why the industry needs to pay more.
The simple fact is supply and demand. The supply of pilots is drying up whilst demand is increasing.
Simple economics - if you want to operate an aviation business then you have to have pilots.
To have pilots you have to pay the going rate.
Don't pay - you don't fly.
My daughter was interested in becoming a pilot. In the end she looked at the life style and the money and decided that a commerce/law degree paid more, had better flexibility with work and gave her a life style that was conducive to a home life. - End result one less potential pilot.
With regard to REX the management seems to need to go an do Economics I at Macquarie Uni. By losing aircrew at the rate they are currently their business will suffer. how long before passengers decide they are too unreliable to use. And once you have annoyed a client they tend not to revisit your business.
Hence the moral for REX is simple, PAY the crew a market rate salary and service the route properly. The business will grow and everybody would be happy.
The simple fact is supply and demand. The supply of pilots is drying up whilst demand is increasing.
Simple economics - if you want to operate an aviation business then you have to have pilots.
To have pilots you have to pay the going rate.
Don't pay - you don't fly.
My daughter was interested in becoming a pilot. In the end she looked at the life style and the money and decided that a commerce/law degree paid more, had better flexibility with work and gave her a life style that was conducive to a home life. - End result one less potential pilot.
With regard to REX the management seems to need to go an do Economics I at Macquarie Uni. By losing aircrew at the rate they are currently their business will suffer. how long before passengers decide they are too unreliable to use. And once you have annoyed a client they tend not to revisit your business.
Hence the moral for REX is simple, PAY the crew a market rate salary and service the route properly. The business will grow and everybody would be happy.
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Ex Rex
I like many others have been following the Rex situation through the various threads and see that the common theme here is the Mgt seem to have their heads up their ar*es. They may well respond to the new economy of pilot supply and demand, but how and when remains to be seen.
With all the analysis and opinions being offered here, is anyone from Rex MGT actually getting it? Does anyone know if they ever read or pay attention to what is being said here? If this was my business and I read even half of what's been suggested here, I'd seriously be taking a step back and re-thinking my position.
If however I was more concerned about how to afford my Bugatti Veyron and generally didn't give a stuff about staff morale, I'd be doing exactly what the current mgt are doing now.
Just a thought.
With all the analysis and opinions being offered here, is anyone from Rex MGT actually getting it? Does anyone know if they ever read or pay attention to what is being said here? If this was my business and I read even half of what's been suggested here, I'd seriously be taking a step back and re-thinking my position.
If however I was more concerned about how to afford my Bugatti Veyron and generally didn't give a stuff about staff morale, I'd be doing exactly what the current mgt are doing now.
Just a thought.
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Pprune moderators,
It's about time that you got rid of the farken idiot "Aircraft"
He is nothing more than a waste of mine and other ppruners time..
I like many others probably don't even read his moronic posts, so i say and i'm sure 90% of fellow pruners would agree, get rid of this d*ckhead.
Moderators, you have banned me several times for over expressing my opinion so I don't believe there should be a problem in getting rid of this oxygen thief!!
I know everyone is entilted to their opinion but this guy is one deluded indivdiual that continually posts utter crap and baseless ramblings...
If you other pruners agree say "I"
It's about time that you got rid of the farken idiot "Aircraft"
He is nothing more than a waste of mine and other ppruners time..
I like many others probably don't even read his moronic posts, so i say and i'm sure 90% of fellow pruners would agree, get rid of this d*ckhead.
Moderators, you have banned me several times for over expressing my opinion so I don't believe there should be a problem in getting rid of this oxygen thief!!
I know everyone is entilted to their opinion but this guy is one deluded indivdiual that continually posts utter crap and baseless ramblings...
If you other pruners agree say "I"
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being well estblished in Syd with family and a house or 2, i would be willing to fly for REX for the rest of my career, im mid 30's, on the condidtion of decent wages to live with in Syd, with decent pay increases in line with community expectations, and they cover the costs of my training..
not every pilot is in it for the big jets. just a decent living an ill be happy.
not every pilot is in it for the big jets. just a decent living an ill be happy.
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I agree
I could not agree more. I too am in this situation with ATPL's and ME/IR, self funded and resonable amount of hours.
I work in a different industry and would love to fly regional and stay there. Being in Syd though with a mortgage and bills to pay, this option is financially unavailable to me. If Rex Bring the T's and C's up to todays levels they would have me banging on their door.
I work in a different industry and would love to fly regional and stay there. Being in Syd though with a mortgage and bills to pay, this option is financially unavailable to me. If Rex Bring the T's and C's up to todays levels they would have me banging on their door.
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Thank you, Dick.
My memory of those days is a little fuzzy, but let me say this: I had a great time, and certainly felt appreciated by my supervisors and work colleagues. I learned heaps about how business is run, and there was as much personal development training on offer as you could take. Actually, that place was well ahead of it's time
now that I think about it. (Some businesses - not only airlines could take a leaf out of DSE's book when it comes to ways of engaging their staff). I can't remember ever hearing anyone complain about their job. The pay wasn't the greatest, but it was what came with the job that mattered (well, to me at least). The intangible things that draw us to a particular employer (not only the heavily subsidised staff purchase scheme) 
. At DSE you certainly gave your pound of flesh, but in return were treated with respect and given a fair go.
Anyway, there have been murmurings about senior guys in REX moving on. Well, not only REX. You can insert airline name here............ You have to ask why? Surely, it cant only be the money because they've lived with fairly steady wage rates for many years. So there must be some other underlying reasons?
1. Lifestyle (family)
2. Career expectations.
3. Apparent feelings of lack of appreciation (Morale).
Address #3 and you're well on your way to solving #1 and 2.
But you have to get it done while you still have senior people to retain.
You'll always see people move on for $$$ or the "next big thing", but not everyone aspires to that. The difficulty is when senior people that wouldn't normally be chasing the aforementioned $$$ or "next big thing" move on, you have some serious problems!
Managing a business is not just about managing money. Managing your people is equally, if not more important (particularly in times of skills shortages which makes one's qualifications more portable).
Clearly effective people management is yet to happen in the airline industry, which is evidenced by so many valuable people disengaged across all professional levels (not just pilots).
Good luck to your families
My memory of those days is a little fuzzy, but let me say this: I had a great time, and certainly felt appreciated by my supervisors and work colleagues. I learned heaps about how business is run, and there was as much personal development training on offer as you could take. Actually, that place was well ahead of it's time
now that I think about it. (Some businesses - not only airlines could take a leaf out of DSE's book when it comes to ways of engaging their staff). I can't remember ever hearing anyone complain about their job. The pay wasn't the greatest, but it was what came with the job that mattered (well, to me at least). The intangible things that draw us to a particular employer (not only the heavily subsidised staff purchase scheme) . At DSE you certainly gave your pound of flesh, but in return were treated with respect and given a fair go.Anyway, there have been murmurings about senior guys in REX moving on. Well, not only REX. You can insert airline name here............ You have to ask why? Surely, it cant only be the money because they've lived with fairly steady wage rates for many years. So there must be some other underlying reasons?
1. Lifestyle (family)
2. Career expectations.
3. Apparent feelings of lack of appreciation (Morale).
Address #3 and you're well on your way to solving #1 and 2.
But you have to get it done while you still have senior people to retain.You'll always see people move on for $$$ or the "next big thing", but not everyone aspires to that. The difficulty is when senior people that wouldn't normally be chasing the aforementioned $$$ or "next big thing" move on, you have some serious problems!
Managing a business is not just about managing money. Managing your people is equally, if not more important (particularly in times of skills shortages which makes one's qualifications more portable).
Clearly effective people management is yet to happen in the airline industry, which is evidenced by so many valuable people disengaged across all professional levels (not just pilots).
Good luck to your families
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The kavorka:
I I IIIIIIIIIIIIII I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I I I I I I I I I I IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII IIII I I I I II IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
Help a brother out.
Aircraft... I hope your reply includes those 'special human touches' (f r e a k)
*yawn*
If you other pruners agree say "I"
Help a brother out.
Aircraft... I hope your reply includes those 'special human touches' (f r e a k)
*yawn*
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"Aircraft" after having read Hugh Jarse's post, he is absolutely right you have not come up with any reasonable reply's to the current situation. It leads me to the fact, your just a pessimist with no real direction what so ever.
Regards The Dog
Regards The Dog
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Pilot Training
During a long drive back home today I caught bits of an announcement from the Coalition about the need to attract pilots to regional airlines. Dont hold me to the exact figures (I was driving), but it was something like if re elected the Coalition will provide $9m to help train new pilots. Basic deal seemed to be that if a trainee agreed to stay with a regional airline for 2 years then 25% of their pilot training fees would be refunded. Look forward to tomorrows papers for the finer details.
Last edited by Raider1; 15th Nov 2007 at 09:13.
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Here is the press release:
Australian Aviation - The Coalition Aiming Even Higher
Wednesday, 14 November 2007
The Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Transport and Regional Services, Mark Vaile, today announced that a re-elected Coalition Government will establish an Australian Aviation Technical College, a regional airline pilot scholarship scheme and a new cadet pilot programme to provide a jobs pathway for young Australians into the exciting aviation sector.
Mr Vaile said the Coalition will also provide funding to assist the aviation industry to investigate further ways to reduce greenhouse gas emissions.
“As an island nation Australia is heavily reliant on air transport for the movement of passengers and trade, while regional Australia depends on aviation for so much including medical needs, commerce and social links,” Mr Vaile said.
“As a result of the Coalition’s policies and initiatives over many years, the Australian aviation industry is experiencing strong growth, record passenger numbers and unprecedented
development in airport infrastructure.”
Industry growth is creating great demand for skilled and qualified aviation professionals, from pilots to aircraft maintenance engineers and air traffic controllers.
“A re-elected Coalition Government will establish a Regional Airline Pilot Scholarship Scheme to encourage pilots to work in regional airlines across Australia,” Mr Vaile announced.
Under the Scheme, a Coalition Government will invest $9 million to reimburse up to 25 per cent of the training costs for pilots if they remain with a nominated regional airline continuously for a period of two years.
“While there is significant interest in aviation, many people, particularly school students, are unsure about how to pursue a career in the industry,” Mr Vaile said.
“A re-elected Coalition Government will also encourage high school students to pursue a career in aviation by investing $250,000 in a programme run in partnership with Royal Australian Aero Clubs.
“The funding will subsidise a cadet pilot certificate course to be run by interested local Aero Clubs.”
Mr Vaile also announced that a re-elected Coalition Government will help more Australian students to pursue their dream career in aviation by establishing an Australian Aviation Technical College.
“The new Australian Aviation Technical College, to be established in close proximity to Perth Airport,
will complement the already committed Australian Technical College campus in Nowra, which will have a focus on aviation trade training,” Mr Vaile said.
“These two campuses will be two of the 30 new stand-alone Australian Technical Colleges announced by the Prime Minister on 29 October 2007.
“The College at Perth Airport will enable up to 200 year 11 and 12 students each year to undertake studies towards year 12 qualifications, while gaining one third of their apprenticeship in an aviation field, including avionics and aircraft maintenance.”
Mr Vaile said the Coalition recognised that, while aviation as a whole contributed only an estimated two percent of global carbon emissions, government needed to work in partnership with industry to address emissions in a way that didn’t threaten jobs.
“The Coalition has introduced a range of measures to reduce aviation greenhouse emissions including: improving fuel efficiency through more flexible flight tracks; improving aircraft air traffic control sequencing; more efficient runway use; and continuous descent approaches,” Mr Vaile said.
“Our commonsense, balanced approach to climate change allows the aviation industry to go for growth.”
Mr Vaile also announced that a re-elected Coalition Government will provide $500,000 to help the aviation industry plan better infrastructure and obtain access to state-of-the-art technology to reduce its greenhouse gas emissions.
“The Coalition also remains strongly committed to not investigate sites for, or build, a second Sydney airport and to maintaining the current Sydney Airport curfew and regional airline access.
“And we will continue to open up new opportunities for Australian aviation industries by encouraging more international airlines into Australia’s regional international airports, working to conclude an open-skies agreement with the United States, and continuing negotiations on an open skies agreement with the European Union.”
Australian Aviation - The Coalition Aiming Even Higher
Wednesday, 14 November 2007
The Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Transport and Regional Services, Mark Vaile, today announced that a re-elected Coalition Government will establish an Australian Aviation Technical College, a regional airline pilot scholarship scheme and a new cadet pilot programme to provide a jobs pathway for young Australians into the exciting aviation sector.
Mr Vaile said the Coalition will also provide funding to assist the aviation industry to investigate further ways to reduce greenhouse gas emissions.
“As an island nation Australia is heavily reliant on air transport for the movement of passengers and trade, while regional Australia depends on aviation for so much including medical needs, commerce and social links,” Mr Vaile said.
“As a result of the Coalition’s policies and initiatives over many years, the Australian aviation industry is experiencing strong growth, record passenger numbers and unprecedented
development in airport infrastructure.”
Industry growth is creating great demand for skilled and qualified aviation professionals, from pilots to aircraft maintenance engineers and air traffic controllers.
“A re-elected Coalition Government will establish a Regional Airline Pilot Scholarship Scheme to encourage pilots to work in regional airlines across Australia,” Mr Vaile announced.
Under the Scheme, a Coalition Government will invest $9 million to reimburse up to 25 per cent of the training costs for pilots if they remain with a nominated regional airline continuously for a period of two years.
“While there is significant interest in aviation, many people, particularly school students, are unsure about how to pursue a career in the industry,” Mr Vaile said.
“A re-elected Coalition Government will also encourage high school students to pursue a career in aviation by investing $250,000 in a programme run in partnership with Royal Australian Aero Clubs.
“The funding will subsidise a cadet pilot certificate course to be run by interested local Aero Clubs.”
Mr Vaile also announced that a re-elected Coalition Government will help more Australian students to pursue their dream career in aviation by establishing an Australian Aviation Technical College.
“The new Australian Aviation Technical College, to be established in close proximity to Perth Airport,
will complement the already committed Australian Technical College campus in Nowra, which will have a focus on aviation trade training,” Mr Vaile said.
“These two campuses will be two of the 30 new stand-alone Australian Technical Colleges announced by the Prime Minister on 29 October 2007.
“The College at Perth Airport will enable up to 200 year 11 and 12 students each year to undertake studies towards year 12 qualifications, while gaining one third of their apprenticeship in an aviation field, including avionics and aircraft maintenance.”
Mr Vaile said the Coalition recognised that, while aviation as a whole contributed only an estimated two percent of global carbon emissions, government needed to work in partnership with industry to address emissions in a way that didn’t threaten jobs.
“The Coalition has introduced a range of measures to reduce aviation greenhouse emissions including: improving fuel efficiency through more flexible flight tracks; improving aircraft air traffic control sequencing; more efficient runway use; and continuous descent approaches,” Mr Vaile said.
“Our commonsense, balanced approach to climate change allows the aviation industry to go for growth.”
Mr Vaile also announced that a re-elected Coalition Government will provide $500,000 to help the aviation industry plan better infrastructure and obtain access to state-of-the-art technology to reduce its greenhouse gas emissions.
“The Coalition also remains strongly committed to not investigate sites for, or build, a second Sydney airport and to maintaining the current Sydney Airport curfew and regional airline access.
“And we will continue to open up new opportunities for Australian aviation industries by encouraging more international airlines into Australia’s regional international airports, working to conclude an open-skies agreement with the United States, and continuing negotiations on an open skies agreement with the European Union.”
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Aircraft, What a wind up artist! I hear Maccas are short on staff, prehaps you could fix their problem too!
Also Dick, as a man of business I too would be interested to see how you would fix this one? Or suggestions at least.
Going Boeing,
I agree they have missed the point completely! It is infrastructure we need!
And the systemic loss of ATC services!
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As for Mr Aircraft .. we're all waiting, matey, for your reply to Hugh. waiting ..waiting ..waiting ...
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Aircraft
My intel sources at the RIA (Reindeer Intelligence Agency), a secretive outfit based in Lapland, tell me XMAS is just around the corner!!
Anytime before then would be fine by us.
Blue Foot
My intel sources at the RIA (Reindeer Intelligence Agency), a secretive outfit based in Lapland, tell me XMAS is just around the corner!!
Anytime before then would be fine by us.
Blue Foot
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25 per cent of the training costs for pilots if they remain with a nominated regional airline continuously for a period of two years
Does this equal problem solved? As I see it, there will cadets avaliable for the RHS, but few (if any at this rate) senior staff for training etc in the LHS?
As for aircraft, I'm not waiting. I used to read his posts with interest but these days they are baited and waiting for bites, I'll waste no more time reading them.
LP
Last edited by Launchpad McQuack; 15th Nov 2007 at 11:28. Reason: typos