Pilot Shortage message spreads
Metrosexual
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Barramundi - fukcen A! 
Couple that with 'too much experience is not desirable as they can't be molded into a multi crew environment or fit our culture" and you hit the nail on the head.
And all that get's buried in the part of the letter that says "Unfortunately, you were not competetive enough".
Couple that with 'too much experience is not desirable as they can't be molded into a multi crew environment or fit our culture" and you hit the nail on the head.
And all that get's buried in the part of the letter that says "Unfortunately, you were not competetive enough".
An interesting observation re the age issue.
I could understand it many years ago when the airline invested tens of thousands of dollars into you and you stayed there for life eventually becoming captain.
Nowdays you pay for your endorsement, admittedly they put a bit of training into you, but a fraction of the days of yore. The workload (and pay) seems to burn many out sooner rather than later so young guys vote with their feet off to the sandpit or elsewhere well within ten years.
I'd say on average, a 50yo pilot would probably stay with an Aussie airline longer than a 25yo!
I could understand it many years ago when the airline invested tens of thousands of dollars into you and you stayed there for life eventually becoming captain.
Nowdays you pay for your endorsement, admittedly they put a bit of training into you, but a fraction of the days of yore. The workload (and pay) seems to burn many out sooner rather than later so young guys vote with their feet off to the sandpit or elsewhere well within ten years.
I'd say on average, a 50yo pilot would probably stay with an Aussie airline longer than a 25yo!
Active hold!
Well said Barramundi!
Some of us older guys might like a go and are not getting a look in because of age. Some of us also don't want the down side of airline flying or couldn't be bothered changing up a few gears. At least with a shortage of experienced pilots we can pick and choose & earn coin that's the best it's ever been.
My second most favorite gripe was the Rat running candidates through all the hoops then putting pilots on "Active hold" to stew about a position.
My favorite gripe was the RFDS NSW section doing the same thing - after interviewing in Broken Hill!
Funny to think that in years gone by most of us accepted this crap!
Pithblot
Some of us older guys might like a go and are not getting a look in because of age. Some of us also don't want the down side of airline flying or couldn't be bothered changing up a few gears. At least with a shortage of experienced pilots we can pick and choose & earn coin that's the best it's ever been.
My second most favorite gripe was the Rat running candidates through all the hoops then putting pilots on "Active hold" to stew about a position.
My favorite gripe was the RFDS NSW section doing the same thing - after interviewing in Broken Hill!
Funny to think that in years gone by most of us accepted this crap!
Pithblot
Guys,
I learnt to fly at the ripe old age of 26! At that time if you were over 25 you could forget a gig with the major airlines. My how things have changed!
It would be insane, in the current environment for any airline management to ignore older candidates. Especially if they carry real experience with them.
Wait a minute.... Airline managers behaving illogically! What was I thinking?
I learnt to fly at the ripe old age of 26! At that time if you were over 25 you could forget a gig with the major airlines. My how things have changed!
It would be insane, in the current environment for any airline management to ignore older candidates. Especially if they carry real experience with them.
Wait a minute.... Airline managers behaving illogically! What was I thinking?
Barramundi, Jet A1,
Good points raised. I will stick my neck out here, and risk getting chopped...
You are perfectly correct - discrimination on the basis of age is ILLEGAL in this country. Have you (assuming you are a member) considered contacting AFAP, or your union of choice, to discuss. Get them to have a swing for you. They have the legal staff to do it.
On a similar note, I want to see them responding LOUD AND PUBLICLY to some of this rot that REX et al are peddling in the papers too.
Hope this is not too naive a suggestion!!
CR.
Good points raised. I will stick my neck out here, and risk getting chopped...
You are perfectly correct - discrimination on the basis of age is ILLEGAL in this country. Have you (assuming you are a member) considered contacting AFAP, or your union of choice, to discuss. Get them to have a swing for you. They have the legal staff to do it.
On a similar note, I want to see them responding LOUD AND PUBLICLY to some of this rot that REX et al are peddling in the papers too.
Hope this is not too naive a suggestion!!
CR.
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Actually, I used to think the same about age/experience. However, after 5500 hrs, mainly piston twin and at 43 years of age, I finally got a chance at an airline. No multi crew experience, and about 15 hrs of turbine time total!. And it's been hard f#cken' work to get that jet rating. But I have. So can you. It's just a matter of time guys, I now believe that!
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I believe this "age" issue in a bit of a double edged sword, i do not have a personal opinion, but what i have seen:
* Many older guys leave the industry because they get sick and tired of starting at a new company and being treated as though they have just gotten their licence and are generally told that their previous experience counts for very little as "this is the way we do things here".
There is alot to be said for street smarts and rat cunning.
Yet on the other hand:
* In a previous job they were having trouble finding sufficent numbers of new pilot candidates, so they tried hiring some older guys out of GA.
It could be said that this was not a very succesfull process as a majourity of these guys were cantankerous to say the least, not willing to do things the company way and out and out abraisive.
When working for a company, you must do things their way.
Thoughts ?.
* Many older guys leave the industry because they get sick and tired of starting at a new company and being treated as though they have just gotten their licence and are generally told that their previous experience counts for very little as "this is the way we do things here".
There is alot to be said for street smarts and rat cunning.
Yet on the other hand:
* In a previous job they were having trouble finding sufficent numbers of new pilot candidates, so they tried hiring some older guys out of GA.
It could be said that this was not a very succesfull process as a majourity of these guys were cantankerous to say the least, not willing to do things the company way and out and out abraisive.
When working for a company, you must do things their way.
Thoughts ?.
Metrosexual
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Thread drift imminent - but worth discussing.
Firstly, I'd just like to say that you're only as old as the woman you feel. 
Counter rotation said:
In a perfect, or even sensible world, this would be a good option. But you would have to take the prospective employer to court, to get access to the records pertaining to your employment application, and then mount a case. My recent experience with the AFAP's poor assistance I received when negotiating an AWA leaves me with little confidence in the level of support I could realistically expect. So, you would be faced with mounting a case out of your own pocket, and then run the risk. My brother is a senior barrister, and his advice in most matters is: "avoid litigation" .
That aside, I could tell you that I have never seen overt discrimination from employers. In fact, I could honestly tell you I have never actually been subject to discrimination in the workplace, or my applications - excepting our domestic airline here with a 'youthful' image.
I have wondered for the last few years, why all of those pilots at my previous company who were very experienced and capable (>5700kg turboprop) who should have walked into that airline never got an interview, whilst other younger piston only pilots, with less than 2500hr, female aviatrix' with even less experience, got interviews, and got jobs at.
I can happily tell you that in the last 12 months, most of these guys have been snapped up - but there are still a few that remain who have plenty of solid TP experience, but figure out who they have to root to get an interview.
Why? They have more than the minimus advertised, command time, stick skills etc, personable, great to get along with etc. It's the companies who don't tapthis talent that suffer when someone else snaps them up.
And I say interview - because then it's up to them to do that process effectively to gain the job.
Porch monkey said:
Nice work!
I started flying in my early 30's after a (reasonably) successful career in another, unrelated, industry.
I have had to work my ring out, like most pilots, and I had to compete with guys 10 years younger than me who were without a family to provide for, and were able to move to where the next good job offer was. Alot of my options were limited because of this fact, and my family is important to me - so the career/family was a real balancing act.
Boo-fukcing-hoo for me
.
It has been difficult at times - especially financially - but everyone in this game has a story, some even have a hard luck story (or two).
Left handed Rockthrower said:
LHRT, that's not an age issue - that's an @rsehole issue!
As far as I'm concerned, show me a set of SOPS, tell me where you want me to go and what time, and pay me on time, and it's a done deal. I get along with they people I fly with, and age is not part of the equation in our relationships.
Most professionals will operate professionally despite their age.
Oh, and I'm early 40's. Hardly an old fart, despite what my kids (teens) say!
Counter rotation said:
You are perfectly correct - discrimination on the basis of age is ILLEGAL in this country. Have you (assuming you are a member) considered contacting AFAP, or your union of choice, to discuss. Get them to have a swing for you. They have the legal staff to do it.
That aside, I could tell you that I have never seen overt discrimination from employers. In fact, I could honestly tell you I have never actually been subject to discrimination in the workplace, or my applications - excepting our domestic airline here with a 'youthful' image.
I have wondered for the last few years, why all of those pilots at my previous company who were very experienced and capable (>5700kg turboprop) who should have walked into that airline never got an interview, whilst other younger piston only pilots, with less than 2500hr, female aviatrix' with even less experience, got interviews, and got jobs at.
I can happily tell you that in the last 12 months, most of these guys have been snapped up - but there are still a few that remain who have plenty of solid TP experience, but figure out who they have to root to get an interview.
Why? They have more than the minimus advertised, command time, stick skills etc, personable, great to get along with etc. It's the companies who don't tapthis talent that suffer when someone else snaps them up.
And I say interview - because then it's up to them to do that process effectively to gain the job.
Porch monkey said:
Actually, I used to think the same about age/experience. However, after 5500 hrs, mainly piston twin and at 43 years of age, I finally got a chance at an airline. No multi crew experience, and about 15 hrs of turbine time total!. And it's been hard f#cken' work to get that jet rating. But I have. So can you. It's just a matter of time guys, I now believe that!
I started flying in my early 30's after a (reasonably) successful career in another, unrelated, industry.
I have had to work my ring out, like most pilots, and I had to compete with guys 10 years younger than me who were without a family to provide for, and were able to move to where the next good job offer was. Alot of my options were limited because of this fact, and my family is important to me - so the career/family was a real balancing act.
Boo-fukcing-hoo for me
. It has been difficult at times - especially financially - but everyone in this game has a story, some even have a hard luck story (or two).
Left handed Rockthrower said:
It could be said that this was not a very succesfull process as a majourity of these guys were cantankerous to say the least, not willing to do things the company way and out and out abraisive.
As far as I'm concerned, show me a set of SOPS, tell me where you want me to go and what time, and pay me on time, and it's a done deal. I get along with they people I fly with, and age is not part of the equation in our relationships.
Most professionals will operate professionally despite their age.
Oh, and I'm early 40's. Hardly an old fart, despite what my kids (teens) say!
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Pilot Shortage, Yeah Right!
Former workmates and friends of mine overseas have contacted me recently saying that there has been stories in their local media stating that there has been cancelations of around 10% of flights due to lack of crews in Australia. What a load of crap.
When are the pilot groups and unions going to counter the propaganda feed to the public by the airlines? When are conditions going to improve? When are we going to get pay increases across the board for crews in Australia like the CEO’s have enjoyed in recent years.
This is all I have heard from any union, and how does this help us?
Australian Federation of Air Pilots industrial relations manager Lawrie Cox said within the next year some airlines would not be able to service smaller routes in regional and remote areas.
Where are the ALEA, AFAP, TWU? The government has yet to make a decision on 457 visas for pilots. It must never happen or it we can kiss good bye to taking any ground back that has been lost over the past 10 years. Pilots are still leaving for greener pastures overseas. This is the issue. There is not a pilot shortage in Australia, there is a shortage of good jobs and representation, so the pilots are still heading overseas.
Former workmates and friends of mine overseas have contacted me recently saying that there has been stories in their local media stating that there has been cancelations of around 10% of flights due to lack of crews in Australia. What a load of crap.
When are the pilot groups and unions going to counter the propaganda feed to the public by the airlines? When are conditions going to improve? When are we going to get pay increases across the board for crews in Australia like the CEO’s have enjoyed in recent years.
This is all I have heard from any union, and how does this help us?
Australian Federation of Air Pilots industrial relations manager Lawrie Cox said within the next year some airlines would not be able to service smaller routes in regional and remote areas.
Where are the ALEA, AFAP, TWU? The government has yet to make a decision on 457 visas for pilots. It must never happen or it we can kiss good bye to taking any ground back that has been lost over the past 10 years. Pilots are still leaving for greener pastures overseas. This is the issue. There is not a pilot shortage in Australia, there is a shortage of good jobs and representation, so the pilots are still heading overseas.
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457 visa's?
It must never happen is a very hopeful thought.
The airlines here have a nasty habit of getting their way with most things (except selling themselves haha).
So what will happen is after a very half hearted attempt to start a flying school qf (that operates totally on terms to benefit qf- of course), qf will claim that due to a poor uptake of its extremely generous offer to create australian pilots- that qf must now unfortunately import that skill- what a shame but they tried eh?
The fact that the imports pay will make J*'s look good, will of course be merely a side issue.....
It must never happen is a very hopeful thought.
The airlines here have a nasty habit of getting their way with most things (except selling themselves haha).
So what will happen is after a very half hearted attempt to start a flying school qf (that operates totally on terms to benefit qf- of course), qf will claim that due to a poor uptake of its extremely generous offer to create australian pilots- that qf must now unfortunately import that skill- what a shame but they tried eh?
The fact that the imports pay will make J*'s look good, will of course be merely a side issue.....
Metrosexual
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You would imagine that our respective pilot representative organisations would spend some of the filthy lucre we contribute on a decent PR organisation to counter spin, the spin.
Obviously not such an obvious idea.
Obviously not such an obvious idea.
Last edited by Jet_A_Knight; 14th Oct 2007 at 06:39. Reason: shpelling
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Personally I don’t think 457s will much of a problem for us as it is shaping up to be a world wide pilot shortage. The future demand for pilots in Aus will be lower than the demand overseas.
An industry rep does need to set the record straight though. I would rather have my tax dollars spent on improving Air Services than funding airline training schemes. So would most tax payers.
An industry rep does need to set the record straight though. I would rather have my tax dollars spent on improving Air Services than funding airline training schemes. So would most tax payers.
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Lefthanded Rock Thrower mentioned the bit about older GA guys being too cantankerous. I haven't hit the magic "40" yet, but I can tell you right now that GA made me pretty bloody cantankerous too! Who wouldn't be after years of enduring such crap!
However, as for my 50-cent's worth for all the detractors out there who think you can't teach an old dog new tricks, I'm with Porch Monkey. Given the opportunity, it might be hard yakka and more of a challenge for some than others - but if you're a true professional pilot - emphasis on the word "professional" by the way - you'll get your head around it all (SOP's, complex jet systems, etc).
FYI, I was 38 when I did my first big jet endorsement (after having flown nothing bigger than 5700kg MTOW). I studied, I worked, and I did it. Just like everyone else who'd done the same before me. End of story.
However, as for my 50-cent's worth for all the detractors out there who think you can't teach an old dog new tricks, I'm with Porch Monkey. Given the opportunity, it might be hard yakka and more of a challenge for some than others - but if you're a true professional pilot - emphasis on the word "professional" by the way - you'll get your head around it all (SOP's, complex jet systems, etc).
FYI, I was 38 when I did my first big jet endorsement (after having flown nothing bigger than 5700kg MTOW). I studied, I worked, and I did it. Just like everyone else who'd done the same before me. End of story.
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Erin B, whilst not disagreeing with your logic, I think you failed to take account of the lure of a residence visa in Oz. I've been told Virgin Blue offered an insultingly low salary package for their chosen Chief Pilot 777 when you consider the work he'll have to put in setting up their overseas operation, but, because an Oz residence visa is part of the deal, it was sufficient to lure a South African with very high qualifications who could otherwise earn considerably more elsewhere.
I suspect something similar will apply to quite a few other pilots from overseas, particularly South Africa, who are offered slots on the 777 with Virgin Blue - and the same could be said for others who will take jobs with Rex and other second level operators at the current T&Cs.
It remains to be seen how long many of them will stay in these low paying jobs once they've got their families settled in Oz with their Oz residency secured.
I suspect something similar will apply to quite a few other pilots from overseas, particularly South Africa, who are offered slots on the 777 with Virgin Blue - and the same could be said for others who will take jobs with Rex and other second level operators at the current T&Cs.
It remains to be seen how long many of them will stay in these low paying jobs once they've got their families settled in Oz with their Oz residency secured.
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South Africa......how long many of them will stay in these low paying jobs once they've got their families settled in Oz
Zim and SA - there's your future pilot supply for Australia, folks. They speak the language, they won't crash the machines and they're already keen to move here.
Not hard to figure which way recruitment for trainers/line drivers will go.
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Good points regarding experienced older guys, there are many pilots in Oz that are capable and willing to operate in the Regional Airline environment.....
Having said that the structure makes it nigh on impossible to join a regional, at the bottom, and remain happy and satisfied with the job. Low pay, poor work condits and a training,(checking only for some,) department that carries on like they are running a space program makes the position not attractive to someone in their 40's+.
CEO's have pushed the LCC model onto the Australian stage with a knock on effect to the regionals, the attitude is if the major's can cut costs so can we. The end result is the shortage we have today.
When I started flying there were 30 guys and gals in our CPL theory course, today there's very few wanting to start flying..... why, because there is such a massive financial outlay with no reward for many years and stupid decisions like paying for a Dash endorsemnet that EAA decided on a few years back.
Less than 90 CPL/ATPL's issued last year....... not going to fill many seats is it?
Having said that the structure makes it nigh on impossible to join a regional, at the bottom, and remain happy and satisfied with the job. Low pay, poor work condits and a training,(checking only for some,) department that carries on like they are running a space program makes the position not attractive to someone in their 40's+.
CEO's have pushed the LCC model onto the Australian stage with a knock on effect to the regionals, the attitude is if the major's can cut costs so can we. The end result is the shortage we have today.
When I started flying there were 30 guys and gals in our CPL theory course, today there's very few wanting to start flying..... why, because there is such a massive financial outlay with no reward for many years and stupid decisions like paying for a Dash endorsemnet that EAA decided on a few years back.
Less than 90 CPL/ATPL's issued last year....... not going to fill many seats is it?
