YPPH gets slot times
Bottums Up
In the spirit of friendly cooperation, if you (ATC) ask for best speed and "cancel STAR speed restriction"; and then want to change the sequence such that from FL360 you slow us to 260, then 220, then 180 but you don't tell us until inside 100nm, when the descent was planned to give you 320 kias to 3000', it plays havoc on the descent profile.
It was achieved but 3000' high at TOPD and then the additional slowing plus the need for engine anti-ice, means its speed brakes out for much of the descent.
It was achieved but 3000' high at TOPD and then the additional slowing plus the need for engine anti-ice, means its speed brakes out for much of the descent.
short flights long nights
and is there a problem with speed brakes out....I thought thats what they were installed for?!?
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That's an old whinge, Capt. C., but a good 'un.
Now, how about the abortion of a SID/STAR arrangement in Perth?
Has the owner of Perth Airport got shares in Jeppesen or something? How many bluddy pages are there for christ's sake???
Not sure how slot times will fix that arrangement - I just threw it in because it needed to be said...
Do they still turn the lights out at midnight just as you're driving home from the pub??
Now, how about the abortion of a SID/STAR arrangement in Perth?
Has the owner of Perth Airport got shares in Jeppesen or something? How many bluddy pages are there for christ's sake???
Not sure how slot times will fix that arrangement - I just threw it in because it needed to be said...
Like the 80km/hr speed limit on the Calder.
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????
Looks like the usual lack of infrastructure, and silly planning.
The airport could use some more concrete, but you probably have to ask someone in London or somewhere to do that.
Surely it's better to depart sooner or later and save time and fuel? Or do you wait for ATC to tell you to do that?
And the term "general aviation" actually means "the things that fly" to normal people. What is often meant by aviators is "light aircraft". Why don't we call them that? This GA jazz was started by aeroplane sales people who said the "general public" were a bit scared of light aircraft, so we won't use that term. Our regulator joined with them in their deception.
The airport could use some more concrete, but you probably have to ask someone in London or somewhere to do that.
Surely it's better to depart sooner or later and save time and fuel? Or do you wait for ATC to tell you to do that?
And the term "general aviation" actually means "the things that fly" to normal people. What is often meant by aviators is "light aircraft". Why don't we call them that? This GA jazz was started by aeroplane sales people who said the "general public" were a bit scared of light aircraft, so we won't use that term. Our regulator joined with them in their deception.
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Westy
The mines want to run their business too their own needs not those of a transport supplier. They have a lot more shift changes and issues than just the day they fly in and out.
After all this problem is faced by most city road users between 8 and 9 and then between 5 to 6 each day. Do you here people complaining about there office opening hours?
There is no easy solution to this problem whilst we are privatising aviation infrastructure. After all the airport wants to make money and isnt going to build a new runway for 1 hour a day. That wont keep the share holders happy!
Infrastructure that is critical should be the job of Governments, after all we got a new railway here to cover a 2 hour rush period, oh and a new freeway and it looks like we are getting a new port, but aviation has to be user pays.
If rail was a user pays system could you imagine the fares from Mandurah to Perth?
After all this problem is faced by most city road users between 8 and 9 and then between 5 to 6 each day. Do you here people complaining about there office opening hours?
There is no easy solution to this problem whilst we are privatising aviation infrastructure. After all the airport wants to make money and isnt going to build a new runway for 1 hour a day. That wont keep the share holders happy!
Infrastructure that is critical should be the job of Governments, after all we got a new railway here to cover a 2 hour rush period, oh and a new freeway and it looks like we are getting a new port, but aviation has to be user pays.
If rail was a user pays system could you imagine the fares from Mandurah to Perth?
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The mines want to run their business too their own needs not those of a transport supplier
I've had two clients in the last month get jacked with the holding at Perth (it helped when a Director of one particular mine was on board when a 1 hour flight became litteraly a two hour flight
) change their departure times to avoid the holding 
. I asked both clients what would be/was involved in changing the flight times and it was as simple as just doing it. What is the differance between departing at 0700 and planning to depart at 0630, but holding for 30+ mins on the ground like yesterday morning.
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What is the differance between departing at 0700 and planning to depart at 0630, but holding for 30+ mins on the ground like yesterday morning.
If you want to legally queue jump; alter your ETD forward; but every now and then they may say no delay... Then what? If you don't meet your ETD with no delay, you get shuffled in the queue based on your true ETA.
CTMS works reasonably well in SY, ML and BN; subject to significant WX factors that occasionally cause it to go T!TS UP; ie forecast 35K westerly allowing for only RWY 25 Ops at SY; but it only blows 20K and the movement rate is way higher than CTMS predicted, thus all the delays are not 'really' required.
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SM4 Pirate
Since when did we need slot times for departure out of PH
As for those required to receive slot times what a complete joke it has been.
3 mins is generous. That could be gone just waiting for CCT traffic. What about those who depart a feild where you can not get into contact by phone. Can Centre or Flight watch issue slot times?
This one is my fav.
So how much taxi fuel do we need now. How long will the ground delays be? If I did not have 3 pax not show for their flight yesterday, and had I not put on extra fuel because of it, I would have had to wait my turn in the queue to the holding point only to turn around and refuel again
Since when did we need slot times for departure out of PH
As for those required to receive slot times what a complete joke it has been.
ACFT WIH A SLOT TIME, AND ARRIVING WITHIN 3MIN OF THAT TIME, CAN
EXPECT A MAX 8 MIN AIRBOURNE DELAY
EXPECT A MAX 8 MIN AIRBOURNE DELAY
This one is my fav.
GROUND DELAYS WILL BE IMPLEMENTED IF AIRBOURNE DELAYS EXCEED
15MIN.
15MIN.
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Since when did we need slot times for departure out of PH
I was thinking of your ETD from your inbound to PH leg; It doesn't have to be 0630 to 0700 either, was thinking more universally than that.
Can Centre or Flight watch issue slot times?
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so-long,
If they introduce start clearance or advise of a start time when obtaining an airways clearance (that would be my preference, that way boarding can be delayed), well then I would be OK by that.
I am not getting hot under the collar, I merely stated that there can be considerable operational ramifications due to ground delays other then just running late. I am sure that nearly every pilot here realises that the problem is not due to the individual ATCer. I am equally sure that seeing a line of 20 odd a/c lined up on a taxi way or 20 odd a/c doing bog laps on a radar screen is equally frustrating to you guys.
When I said "3 minutes is generous", it was actually tongue in cheek 
. I do not know if the FLOW adds any buffer onto the slot time ie; do they just offer a time that is favourable for them, or is it based on a flight planned ETI plus an allowance for taxi. I know it has nothing to do with CCT traffic as you stated, but it is far from inconceivable to be delayed by 3 mins or more on the ground for any number of reasons. Personally, I think most crew will carry the 15 mins holding anyway just to cover their own butts, making the concept of slot times (and the 8 mins holding) obsolete.
If they introduce start clearance or advise of a start time when obtaining an airways clearance (that would be my preference, that way boarding can be delayed), well then I would be OK by that.
I am not getting hot under the collar, I merely stated that there can be considerable operational ramifications due to ground delays other then just running late. I am sure that nearly every pilot here realises that the problem is not due to the individual ATCer. I am equally sure that seeing a line of 20 odd a/c lined up on a taxi way or 20 odd a/c doing bog laps on a radar screen is equally frustrating to you guys.
The 3 minutes is generous - but the generosity is being given to the pilot in command - not to ATC. It has nothing to do with traffic in the circuit.
All they are saying is that of you can make the arrival time at the inbound point +/- 3 minutes, you will not be penalised any more than 8 minutes. If you can't - you might be. Sounds fair to me.
All they are saying is that of you can make the arrival time at the inbound point +/- 3 minutes, you will not be penalised any more than 8 minutes. If you can't - you might be. Sounds fair to me.
. I do not know if the FLOW adds any buffer onto the slot time ie; do they just offer a time that is favourable for them, or is it based on a flight planned ETI plus an allowance for taxi. I know it has nothing to do with CCT traffic as you stated, but it is far from inconceivable to be delayed by 3 mins or more on the ground for any number of reasons. Personally, I think most crew will carry the 15 mins holding anyway just to cover their own butts, making the concept of slot times (and the 8 mins holding) obsolete.
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Personally, I think most crew will carry the 15 mins holding anyway just to cover their own butts
As an aside I heard 3 717's today being given minimum groundspeed to avoid holding at PH. We hear that all the time but they were telling them at Paraburdoo!!
Thank goodness the rain is starting to give way to the sun...
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Quote: "I heard that 40 aircraft held last Tuesday morning. Can that be true?"
Absolutely true knackers. I was on that morning and after 70 departures in the morning we started holding at about 0105 and the last one held at about 0320.
The reductions in speed in the cruise way out made the workload manageable. If there were no reductions and all aircraft came steaming in at normal cruise there would have been way more delays and more aircraft holding at the one time. The speed reductions can sometimes help avoid holding but other times they just reduce the holding time.
There is no easy way of knowing how busy the inbound sequence will be so I believe it would make more sense to carry holding fuel when the NOTAM advises, surely it is better to have too much fuel than too little?
Absolutely true knackers. I was on that morning and after 70 departures in the morning we started holding at about 0105 and the last one held at about 0320.
The reductions in speed in the cruise way out made the workload manageable. If there were no reductions and all aircraft came steaming in at normal cruise there would have been way more delays and more aircraft holding at the one time. The speed reductions can sometimes help avoid holding but other times they just reduce the holding time.
There is no easy way of knowing how busy the inbound sequence will be so I believe it would make more sense to carry holding fuel when the NOTAM advises, surely it is better to have too much fuel than too little?
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Question for the operators into PH.
If you are told to reduce to minimum speed at 300-400nm from PH, does this eat into your holding fuel or will you still have a similar amount of holding fuel at 90nm PH because the reduction in speed doesn't use up that much more fuel?
If you are told to reduce to minimum speed at 300-400nm from PH, does this eat into your holding fuel or will you still have a similar amount of holding fuel at 90nm PH because the reduction in speed doesn't use up that much more fuel?
willadvise
Fair point! Once established in cruise we tend to get a ETA for PH and check it aginst flight planned time so you get a benchmark figure. Some speed reduction early on may put you back to long range cruise so you actually gain fuel on arrival to PH allowing more fuel for holding once you get to the holding points but the requirements to sit a minimum clean can put us towards the back of the drag curve and cause a time blow out (good for atc) and a fuel burn blowout (bad for us). If this occurs I will take off the difference with the new eta from the 15 mins and advise atc a bit closer in if it looks like holding is also going to be required.
Although atc dont want acft stacked up over Ph there is only so much you can do with maxpayload / min fuel flights. This will be compounded in summer with hot conditions not allowing the extra (mum and the kids ) fuel to be put on site and only having the bare minimum holding fuel. Add the arvo build ups over the Range and its fun and games all round.
Fair point! Once established in cruise we tend to get a ETA for PH and check it aginst flight planned time so you get a benchmark figure. Some speed reduction early on may put you back to long range cruise so you actually gain fuel on arrival to PH allowing more fuel for holding once you get to the holding points but the requirements to sit a minimum clean can put us towards the back of the drag curve and cause a time blow out (good for atc) and a fuel burn blowout (bad for us). If this occurs I will take off the difference with the new eta from the 15 mins and advise atc a bit closer in if it looks like holding is also going to be required.
Although atc dont want acft stacked up over Ph there is only so much you can do with maxpayload / min fuel flights. This will be compounded in summer with hot conditions not allowing the extra (mum and the kids ) fuel to be put on site and only having the bare minimum holding fuel. Add the arvo build ups over the Range and its fun and games all round.
