QF Go-around
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 1999
Posts: 326
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
QF Go-around
ATSB Report AO-2007-001. Page 9 Last two paragraphs
At 1923:14, the aircraft descended through 50 ft radio altitude. One second later, at 1923:15, the captain advised that the airspeed was bleeding, indicating that the airspeed was reducing. The rate of descent did not decrease, despite an increase in aircraft pitch and thrust, and the aircraft touched down firmly on the main landing gear at 1923:16. Just after the touch-down, the aircraft’s enhanced ground proximity warning system (EGPWS) issued a windshear alert, and the captain advised that he was taking over control of the aircraft. The crew conducted a go around, and subsequently landed the aircraft on runway 34L at 1940.
During the landing, several overhead cabin fittings detached. A subsequent maintenance inspection did not identify any other defect or damage to the aircraft, and there were no reported injuries to passengers or crew.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Can anyone from QF advise on SOPs regarding go arounds - into known w/shear conditions – after touchdown?
At 1923:14, the aircraft descended through 50 ft radio altitude. One second later, at 1923:15, the captain advised that the airspeed was bleeding, indicating that the airspeed was reducing. The rate of descent did not decrease, despite an increase in aircraft pitch and thrust, and the aircraft touched down firmly on the main landing gear at 1923:16. Just after the touch-down, the aircraft’s enhanced ground proximity warning system (EGPWS) issued a windshear alert, and the captain advised that he was taking over control of the aircraft. The crew conducted a go around, and subsequently landed the aircraft on runway 34L at 1940.
During the landing, several overhead cabin fittings detached. A subsequent maintenance inspection did not identify any other defect or damage to the aircraft, and there were no reported injuries to passengers or crew.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Can anyone from QF advise on SOPs regarding go arounds - into known w/shear conditions – after touchdown?
Just goes to show that SOP's and the textbook, do not cover all scenarios.
A windshear warning, low energy hard touchdown, and although it is not mentioned, probably resulted in the aircraft becoming airborne again.
First in the captains mind would have been to recover from the hard touchdown.
While that was happening, they received the belated Windshear warning.
A lot happening all at once! I guess you could say they dealt with it!
A windshear warning, low energy hard touchdown, and although it is not mentioned, probably resulted in the aircraft becoming airborne again.
First in the captains mind would have been to recover from the hard touchdown.
While that was happening, they received the belated Windshear warning.
A lot happening all at once! I guess you could say they dealt with it!
Warning Toxic!
Disgusted of Tunbridge
Disgusted of Tunbridge
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Hampshire, UK
Posts: 4,011
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Casper, are you reading into this that the aircraft had settled satisfactorily onto the ground? It sounds to me like there was a very unsatisfactory ground contact and the aircraft probably bounced airborne again- the windshear warning would have been secondary to recovery from a bounced landing, and if an experienced crew decided the best option was to throw it away and go-around, despite the windshear warning, I would readily agree and I would go along with that decision. It may not be logical to you, but after 19,000 hours, I would be happy with that.
Official advice on most airline fleets is not to attempt a go-around once reverse has been selected.
I see according to your profile you are 'not anything'. Could you tell us on what basis of experience you see fit to question these actions?
Official advice on most airline fleets is not to attempt a go-around once reverse has been selected.
I see according to your profile you are 'not anything'. Could you tell us on what basis of experience you see fit to question these actions?
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Oz
Posts: 754
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It isn't clear, Casper, exactly when he made the decision and commenced the actions for a go-round. This may well have been done in the instant prior to touchdown, due to the bleeding speed and rate of descent. Also, as has been mentioned, the aircraft may have bounced hard enough to get airborne again, which would retract the spoilers, etc. If that happened, I'd go-round too! So too, I expect, would most other airline pilots on this forum.
Changing your mind once a decision has been made to go-round can be quite a bad thing to do and leads to all sorts of complications (ask the guys from QF1 in Bangkok), windshear warning or not.
I can't see anything wrong with his decision based on the info you presented.
Changing your mind once a decision has been made to go-round can be quite a bad thing to do and leads to all sorts of complications (ask the guys from QF1 in Bangkok), windshear warning or not.
I can't see anything wrong with his decision based on the info you presented.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 1999
Posts: 326
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hey, I'm not questioning any actions or decisions - just quoting the ATSB report and asking for guidance in an operator's SOPs - nothing more. SOPs such as actions after deployment of spoilers, autobrakes, thrust reversers etc if, in fact, they were even deployed.
And, for Rainboe's info, I have some 30+ years of international heavy jet experience and I'm seeking the info because I know that I have much more to learn!
And, for Rainboe's info, I have some 30+ years of international heavy jet experience and I'm seeking the info because I know that I have much more to learn!
Nunc est bibendum
Can anyone from QF advise on SOPs regarding go arounds - into known w/shear conditions – after touchdown?
Evertonian
I guess it also depends on which touchdown you are referring to!
So, they landed hard, went around, landed safely 17 odd minutes later and there were no casualties. Aside from any "We thought we were doomed" stories in the media, this was basically a preofessional crew going about their business...
Next crisis please.....
As to your actual question (I obviously have NFI), does your airline use QF SOP's? Just curious mind you...
So, they landed hard, went around, landed safely 17 odd minutes later and there were no casualties. Aside from any "We thought we were doomed" stories in the media, this was basically a preofessional crew going about their business...
Next crisis please.....
As to your actual question (I obviously have NFI), does your airline use QF SOP's? Just curious mind you...
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Oz
Posts: 754
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
OK then. From the Qantas Flight Administration Manual, Chapter 21B, Standard Operating Procedures, Para 21.61:
"Flight Crew are encouraged to perform a Missed Approach whenever any doubt exists as to the safe continuation of an approach and landing."
Neither SOPs nor the FCOM give guidance on specific combinations of events such as a hard landing followed immediately by windshear warning. They would run into multiple volumes if they gave instructions for every combination.
Nuff said.
"Flight Crew are encouraged to perform a Missed Approach whenever any doubt exists as to the safe continuation of an approach and landing."
Neither SOPs nor the FCOM give guidance on specific combinations of events such as a hard landing followed immediately by windshear warning. They would run into multiple volumes if they gave instructions for every combination.
Nuff said.
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: ...
Posts: 341
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Rainboe
Casper, are you reading into this that the aircraft had settled satisfactorily onto the ground? It sounds to me like ....... the aircraft probably bounced airborne again
"Airspeed is bleeding"????
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: in the classroom of life
Age: 55
Posts: 6,864
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Rainboe should stick to the forums on the other side of the planet, he barks at any who dares to stray onto his patch
.
And seems to not practise what he preaches
.
Be interesting to see if this gets him arced up.
Mind you among some of his rantings and plain BS, he does make some pretty relevant comments.
J
.And seems to not practise what he preaches
.Be interesting to see if this gets him arced up.
Mind you among some of his rantings and plain BS, he does make some pretty relevant comments.
J
Also heard from someone that if the windshear that the aircraft encountered in the flare happened a few seconds earlier like at 200 feet, the calculations and modelling reckon it would have not had sufficient height to recover.
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: ...
Posts: 341
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
So not everyone knows what "airspeed is bleeding" means.
Typical IAS-related awareness call might be:
"Speed."
captain advised that the airspeed was bleeding, indicating that the airspeed was reducing
Last edited by ScottyDoo; 28th Sep 2007 at 18:56.
Registered User **
Join Date: May 2005
Location: The Ultimate Crew Rest....
Age: 69
Posts: 2,346
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thats right little Scotty there is no room for any humour here and meanwhile we have professional pilots debating what the phrase 'airspeed is bleeding' indicates.....it makes parliamentry question time look reasonable
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: ...
Posts: 341
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ah, the peanut gallery has arrived. Okay LubedLower, I'm bored enough to listen to your ideas on the go-around...
Why don't you start with a fundamental like "TOGA"?
Is it:
i) a flight automation functionality,
ii) a button
iii) a thrust setting, or
iv) a party where your fun-boy hostie mates dress up in nothing butt white bed-sheets, held together precariously by a single pin.
Why don't you start with a fundamental like "TOGA"?
Is it:
i) a flight automation functionality,
ii) a button
iii) a thrust setting, or
iv) a party where your fun-boy hostie mates dress up in nothing butt white bed-sheets, held together precariously by a single pin.
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Aus
Posts: 46
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hey Rainboe
Give Casper a break....he was just asking about SOPs....he wasn't questioning the decision of the captain....your 19000 hours hasn't taught you much about people skills has it?...
Give Casper a break....he was just asking about SOPs....he wasn't questioning the decision of the captain....your 19000 hours hasn't taught you much about people skills has it?...