Finally, some balls - NJS Pilots take industrial action
Metrosexual
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The AFAP are an industry association so ideally they would support the employer and employee equally so as to balance the industry opportunities amongst the incumbent operators.
I'm paying for a protector - not a collaborator.
The AFAP are an industry association so ideally they would support the employer and employee equally so as to balance the industry opportunities amongst the incumbent operators.
I'm paying for a protector - not a collaborator.
NO NO NO NO NO
You are paying for a collaborator - not a protector.
That has been my whole point!
El Kabong said:
I happen to have great respect for what PAF writes and will go out of my way to read one of his posts. I wish I had his satirical skills - I could then get my message across in far fewer words.
remoak,
Your post (#120) was easily the best and most authoritive post I have ever read on PPRUNE. Those were the unmistakable words of a wise man. I thank you for taking the time. I urge all readers of this thread to go back and read it again - you will find it here.
David_Webb,
You are right, right and right, but your words will not be understood and accepted by the vast majority of pilots at NJS and/or on this thread - but please don't let that stop you. I applaud you for making the effort to talk to them. They will spit in your face but please persist.
Sunfish,
I suggest you order a personal title which says "barking up the wrong tree".
Capt Claret said:
Sadly, we have no right to expect (or demand) that our pay is continually increased so as to stay in line with inflation. We all regard that as some kind of god given right but sadly, it just isn't.
Commercial aviation has been on a relentless 50 year quest to make flying cheaper for the people of the world. For the first few decades, the technological advances to aircraft and engines were, by themselves, sufficient to keep the airfares coming down, but these days, those advances just don't bring the kind of gains they used to.
The arrival of the 787 will bring efficiency increases greater than any recent new airliner but, in relative terms, those increases are almost insignificant compared to the step change that accompanied the entry to service of the magnificent Boeing 707.
In 1945, on an Avro Lancastrian, the one way airfare from Sydney to London would set you back 130 times the average weeks' wage. In 1955, with the arrival of the Lockheed Constellation, that would be 56 times the average week's wage.
In 1960, the Boeing 707 brought the cost down to 22 times. The 747 in 1970 got it down to 14 times. By the year 2000, on the Boeing 777, the cost was down to around 2 times.
Between 1964 and 2002, the CPI has gone up 855%. The price of the average Australian 3 bedroom house has gone up 4,189% in that same period. Petrol has gone up by 986%, a loaf of bread 1,372%, and the average 4 door car 1,316%. Average weekly earnings went up by 1,419%.
How much did the Sydney - London airfare go up by over that same period? A whole 92%.
But you don't need to look back 50 years to see this trend - the low cost model favoured by Jetstar and Tiger make Virgin Blue look almost like a traditional ("legacy") airline! Such is the nature of the commercial aviation industry.
With such dramatic and spectacular declines in the cost of air travel, it was always inevitable that airline staff salaries would have to reduce in order for the airfares to keep coming down appreciably. Those salaries are not just of the pilots, but everybody in the airline.
Don't be fooled by short periods where pilot salaries remain constant, in real terms, or even increase, and don't be fooled by bonuses and increases to executive remuneration. Viewed over the longer term, the trend is clear: airline staff costs (for all staff) are decreasing, and this is true everywhere in the world.
The implications of this should be obvious.
The above statistics I got from the excellent book "Qantas Flightpaths" by Geoffrey Thomas and Christine Forbes Smith.
I think that the majority would sooner have bowl surgery in the woods with a blunt stick than to sift through another of your "pearls of wisdom".
remoak,
Your post (#120) was easily the best and most authoritive post I have ever read on PPRUNE. Those were the unmistakable words of a wise man. I thank you for taking the time. I urge all readers of this thread to go back and read it again - you will find it here.
David_Webb,
You are right, right and right, but your words will not be understood and accepted by the vast majority of pilots at NJS and/or on this thread - but please don't let that stop you. I applaud you for making the effort to talk to them. They will spit in your face but please persist.
Sunfish,
I suggest you order a personal title which says "barking up the wrong tree".
Capt Claret said:
... we're not wanting to strike for more money, we're trying to avoid being paid LESS!
Commercial aviation has been on a relentless 50 year quest to make flying cheaper for the people of the world. For the first few decades, the technological advances to aircraft and engines were, by themselves, sufficient to keep the airfares coming down, but these days, those advances just don't bring the kind of gains they used to.
The arrival of the 787 will bring efficiency increases greater than any recent new airliner but, in relative terms, those increases are almost insignificant compared to the step change that accompanied the entry to service of the magnificent Boeing 707.
In 1945, on an Avro Lancastrian, the one way airfare from Sydney to London would set you back 130 times the average weeks' wage. In 1955, with the arrival of the Lockheed Constellation, that would be 56 times the average week's wage.
In 1960, the Boeing 707 brought the cost down to 22 times. The 747 in 1970 got it down to 14 times. By the year 2000, on the Boeing 777, the cost was down to around 2 times.
Between 1964 and 2002, the CPI has gone up 855%. The price of the average Australian 3 bedroom house has gone up 4,189% in that same period. Petrol has gone up by 986%, a loaf of bread 1,372%, and the average 4 door car 1,316%. Average weekly earnings went up by 1,419%.
How much did the Sydney - London airfare go up by over that same period? A whole 92%.
But you don't need to look back 50 years to see this trend - the low cost model favoured by Jetstar and Tiger make Virgin Blue look almost like a traditional ("legacy") airline! Such is the nature of the commercial aviation industry.
With such dramatic and spectacular declines in the cost of air travel, it was always inevitable that airline staff salaries would have to reduce in order for the airfares to keep coming down appreciably. Those salaries are not just of the pilots, but everybody in the airline.
Don't be fooled by short periods where pilot salaries remain constant, in real terms, or even increase, and don't be fooled by bonuses and increases to executive remuneration. Viewed over the longer term, the trend is clear: airline staff costs (for all staff) are decreasing, and this is true everywhere in the world.
The implications of this should be obvious.
The above statistics I got from the excellent book "Qantas Flightpaths" by Geoffrey Thomas and Christine Forbes Smith.
Aircraft, you are an absolute hoot me luvly!
Your words, but later in your post you quote:
Exactly how did average weekly earnings grow by 1419% Aircraft?????
Because in your flat world workers have no right to keep up with inflation
Exactly what is inflation, aircraft? Increased costs of goods and services? If so, then what will inevitably be a major share of those increased costs?
Please tell us Maestro, you should be Federal Treasurer.
Sadly, we have no right to expect (or demand) that our pay is continually increased so as to stay in line with inflation. We all regard that as some kind of god given right but sadly, it just isn't.
Between 1964 and 2002, the CPI has gone up 855%. The price of the average Australian 3 bedroom house has gone up 4,189% in that same period. Petrol has gone up by 986%, a loaf of bread 1,372%, and the average 4 door car 1,316%. Average weekly earnings went up by 1,419%.
Because in your flat world workers have no right to keep up with inflation
Exactly what is inflation, aircraft? Increased costs of goods and services? If so, then what will inevitably be a major share of those increased costs?
Please tell us Maestro, you should be Federal Treasurer.
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The implications of this should be obvious.
I agree with you on certain aspects of your argument aircraft, no one has a right to a job. However, a pilot shortage is starting to become apparent and the only reaction from airline execs so far is to continue with the tried and tested policies of the past and cross their fingers that their competition will go bust before they will. (Hmmm, just like GA.) When an airline has to cancel flights on a regular basis because of a lack of crew, surely that will have a greater effect on passenger numbers than a rise in ticket prices.
Reading an interview with Colleen Barrett, President of Southwest Airlines (link below) and it was interesting to see an attitude that the only real competitive advantage is in service. [aircraft, you should enjoy the read.] If the service can't be provided, the customer will go elsewhere. It's a shame that airlines are still protected in Australia through government legislation.
Perhaps if RPT route protection was scrapped, we'd have a better chance of reducing costs than by attacking crew wages. Of course, the airline execs wouldn't support that, would they?
http://www.costcoconnection.com/conn.../?u1=texterity
Last edited by Lodown; 7th Sep 2007 at 23:53.
Sadly, we have no right to expect (or demand) that our pay is continually increased so as to stay in line with inflation. We all regard that as some kind of god given right but sadly, it just isn't.
Hopefully a big fine will lead to loss of jobs, management jobs!
Yes it is and No they have not paid it, hence the proposed action is being taken after 2 yrs of fruitless discussions, court action, and lots of this
Management will not/have not paid CPI to pilots who will not sign up to a new AWA with lesser conditions.
They are not able to explain this decision to their employees, it is now before the federal magistrates court, the AIRC and the media.
Management will not/have not paid CPI to pilots who will not sign up to a new AWA with lesser conditions.
They are not able to explain this decision to their employees, it is now before the federal magistrates court, the AIRC and the media.
Last edited by RENURPP; 8th Sep 2007 at 01:23.
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aircraft..
It just goes to show that all those adverts by australian business and the government about the IR laws are a load of BS.The only organisations that benefit from the IR laws are business...
Personally,I can't wait for a change in government.
It just goes to show that all those adverts by australian business and the government about the IR laws are a load of BS.The only organisations that benefit from the IR laws are business...
Personally,I can't wait for a change in government.
Apologies to all - I have muddled things a little by not being sufficiently careful with my wording.
You may have the right to CPI increases but those alone do not guarantee you will not "go backwards" overall. Despite the CPI increases, there can be other things in your agreement that cause you to "go backwards".
You do not have the right to not go backwards, and my blurb about the nature of the industry was to show that you pretty much have to go backwards, so you should be expecting it.
You may have the right to CPI increases but those alone do not guarantee you will not "go backwards" overall. Despite the CPI increases, there can be other things in your agreement that cause you to "go backwards".
You do not have the right to not go backwards, and my blurb about the nature of the industry was to show that you pretty much have to go backwards, so you should be expecting it.
Aircraft,
I understand that, I suggest even with CPI we will be going backwards, how ever we do have the right to expect what is in our agreements to be honoured and thats what all this is about.
With holding entitlements, having to sign new AWA under duress.
We have not been seeking to increase any benifits in our current agreement.
If you agree with that then can I take it that you agree with our action?
I understand that, I suggest even with CPI we will be going backwards, how ever we do have the right to expect what is in our agreements to be honoured and thats what all this is about.
With holding entitlements, having to sign new AWA under duress.
We have not been seeking to increase any benifits in our current agreement.
If you agree with that then can I take it that you agree with our action?
Bottums Up
Aircraft, to put it in simple terms.
Our employer had an expectation that we would give up our contractual condition of annual CPI increments when the nominal expiry date came around.
Work Choices supposedly says that one must be compensated if one gives up existing T&C.
We know that CPI doesn't guarantee not going backwards but we've been happy enough with it for 18 years. Losing it means the only way we can go is backward.
Some of us are in the fortunate position that we don't want to change type or seats, so our AWA conditions continue until a new AWA is negotiated and signed.
For the less fortunate, that have to reduce their pay and conditions and commit to it for 5 years (and a lot can change in that time), or, decline a promotion to the LHS or change of type.
What a great example of management getting the best out of their troops.
Our employer had an expectation that we would give up our contractual condition of annual CPI increments when the nominal expiry date came around.
Work Choices supposedly says that one must be compensated if one gives up existing T&C.
We know that CPI doesn't guarantee not going backwards but we've been happy enough with it for 18 years. Losing it means the only way we can go is backward.
Some of us are in the fortunate position that we don't want to change type or seats, so our AWA conditions continue until a new AWA is negotiated and signed.
For the less fortunate, that have to reduce their pay and conditions and commit to it for 5 years (and a lot can change in that time), or, decline a promotion to the LHS or change of type.
What a great example of management getting the best out of their troops.
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Seems like most of my mates are already here, nice one boys.
You Pilots are always whinging, first of all I read in the papers is how nobody will negotiate with you.
Now all we hear about is how mean everyone is when we play a little hardball and get together with your "industrial association".
No sign, No pay. Take it or leave it sunshine.
Big fine. Boo Friggerty Hoo we'll just find some excess pilot entitlements for that.
Cunning, You paid just can't remember if it was cash or not.
You Pilots are always whinging, first of all I read in the papers is how nobody will negotiate with you.
Now all we hear about is how mean everyone is when we play a little hardball and get together with your "industrial association".
No sign, No pay. Take it or leave it sunshine.
Big fine. Boo Friggerty Hoo we'll just find some excess pilot entitlements for that.
Cunning, You paid just can't remember if it was cash or not.