Finally, some balls - NJS Pilots take industrial action
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PAF
an AWA is a indervidual agreement, a EBA is a group agreement. from i have been led to believe they are all on AWA's but are not allowed to negotiate their "own" AWA. it appears to be more of a take it or leave it. why have a AWa when they arent alowed to negotiate it?
an AWA is a indervidual agreement, a EBA is a group agreement. from i have been led to believe they are all on AWA's but are not allowed to negotiate their "own" AWA. it appears to be more of a take it or leave it. why have a AWa when they arent alowed to negotiate it?
Grandpa Aerotart
So PAF if the RAAF decides tomorrow that in order for them to justify the next aircraft they need to fullfill their corporate goals you, and your other steely eyed messenger of death mates, will be required to
1/. Pay for the training yourself,
2/. take a wage cut and
3/. Sign a bond saying you will recompense the RAAF further if you decide to leave within X period,
That would be OK?
And this is not all about new employees being shown a contract and told "This is the deal...sign if you accept" this is about current employees being told your current type (which you paid for) is now redundant and we are going to be operating this new type here...so you will pay for your training, take a pay cut and sign this AWA and bond or **** off.
At what point, in your view, does employee subsidisation of the employer so they can reap greater profits for shareholders become unacceptable...if ever?
"Just vote with your feet" I hear you say...would that we all lived in your reality...some people have mortgages, children etc.
Gulf Air have just offered the staff HUGE payrises because 100+ pilots resigned after their last desultory offer...70% payrises apparently. So yes voting with your feet can have an effect if enough people do so in a short enough time frame.
And of course resigning is not illegal. So what is the difference between all the pilots withdrawing their labour by resigning en masse and them all withdrawing their labour for a period of time via strike action?
According to you one is the sign of strength of character and one of industrial sabotage....but the effects are instantly identical while in the medium term the industrial action is far less damaging.
In the case of industrial action the matter can be resolved in minutes literally...everybody resigning en masse (and standing by that decision) will destroy the company in the current pilot employment reality.
Or do you think they can find, train and deploy 100+ B717 pilots tomorrow?
Remember what happened last time all the pilots resigned?
Not one of the effected companies is still in existance.
You can bet your ar$e management remember...it wasn't so long ago that NJS was top heavy in 89ers.
1/. Pay for the training yourself,
2/. take a wage cut and
3/. Sign a bond saying you will recompense the RAAF further if you decide to leave within X period,
That would be OK?
And this is not all about new employees being shown a contract and told "This is the deal...sign if you accept" this is about current employees being told your current type (which you paid for) is now redundant and we are going to be operating this new type here...so you will pay for your training, take a pay cut and sign this AWA and bond or **** off.
At what point, in your view, does employee subsidisation of the employer so they can reap greater profits for shareholders become unacceptable...if ever?
"Just vote with your feet" I hear you say...would that we all lived in your reality...some people have mortgages, children etc.
Gulf Air have just offered the staff HUGE payrises because 100+ pilots resigned after their last desultory offer...70% payrises apparently. So yes voting with your feet can have an effect if enough people do so in a short enough time frame.
And of course resigning is not illegal. So what is the difference between all the pilots withdrawing their labour by resigning en masse and them all withdrawing their labour for a period of time via strike action?
According to you one is the sign of strength of character and one of industrial sabotage....but the effects are instantly identical while in the medium term the industrial action is far less damaging.
In the case of industrial action the matter can be resolved in minutes literally...everybody resigning en masse (and standing by that decision) will destroy the company in the current pilot employment reality.
Or do you think they can find, train and deploy 100+ B717 pilots tomorrow?
Remember what happened last time all the pilots resigned?
Not one of the effected companies is still in existance.
You can bet your ar$e management remember...it wasn't so long ago that NJS was top heavy in 89ers.
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I'm not going to get into the NJ dispute, that's best left up to the people who are looking at the prospect of pain on both sides. I will however take umbrage at PAF's little rant of anti union vitriol.
PAF I have a couple of questions for you. Have you ever worked in any job thats non gov? Oh let me rephrase that. Have you ever worked in a non gov job post 18 years of age? Have you ever really worked? I don't mean getting treated like top gun, I mean something really down and dirty? Say underground on a mine, Fishing boat in your beloved Kalbarri, maybe refitting a 206? For someone else too, who's making big money off your work and who make sacrifices too but get to reward themselves for them. You seem to have read a bit though, which just makes you well read.
Do you like your job and expect to get paid according to your skillset without having to uproot your life? Have you ever been shafted by an employer?
Your anger and venom smacks of propaganda, which is the sort of thinking that causes the situation that has arisen. Calm down, listen and stop wanting people to leave and maybe you'd get somewhere, it's business not Defence. You NEED your employees on side, after all it is a service industry. Telling people to quit when they want better conditions is just plain rude.
Good luck to all parties and I hope some sort of outcome is gained without too much pain or polarisation.
PAF I have a couple of questions for you. Have you ever worked in any job thats non gov? Oh let me rephrase that. Have you ever worked in a non gov job post 18 years of age? Have you ever really worked? I don't mean getting treated like top gun, I mean something really down and dirty? Say underground on a mine, Fishing boat in your beloved Kalbarri, maybe refitting a 206? For someone else too, who's making big money off your work and who make sacrifices too but get to reward themselves for them. You seem to have read a bit though, which just makes you well read.
Do you like your job and expect to get paid according to your skillset without having to uproot your life? Have you ever been shafted by an employer?
Your anger and venom smacks of propaganda, which is the sort of thinking that causes the situation that has arisen. Calm down, listen and stop wanting people to leave and maybe you'd get somewhere, it's business not Defence. You NEED your employees on side, after all it is a service industry. Telling people to quit when they want better conditions is just plain rude.
Good luck to all parties and I hope some sort of outcome is gained without too much pain or polarisation.
When you live....
It's the economy stupid
I'll welcome debate on the economy with anyone who wishes to because the facts are not in dispute.
Federal government sitting on a $8 billion surplus. Where did it come from? Howard/Costello's financial genius? Or the windfalls of the resources boom, fuel prices (GST on duty don't forget) etc etc.
On the flip side, the largest federal government public service ever, largest unfunded public service liability ever, flogged off all public assets worth anything, still borrowing (don't believe what uncle pete tells you) - and I'm not even going to start on the moral bankruptcy of our leadership.
My Aunt Mabel could manage this economy as well as the Liberals. If they're so crash hot then why is NSW going backwards - house prices falling, on the verge of deflation? Victoria & Tassie not far behind? Because those states don't have BHP & Rio delivering record income, employment and governent income by the fistfull. Don't get me wrong - I'm horrified by our state governments too and proclaiming that Kevin '07 is the answer - just don't try and convince me that it's all down to Johnny.
UTR
PS Johnny says that the workers have never had it better and the market will look after them. Unfortunately, he's only left one method of achieving it. NJ guys - go for it!
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Just when they could have stood to take advantage of the NJS strike, Skippers' stingy habits have bit them in the @rse!!! Oh the irony! 
Methinks Network and Maroomba will poach whatever they can,
Methinks Network and Maroomba will poach whatever they can,
rather scratch my own eyes out with a pair of scissors than join a union
As for your Kalbarri meat-workers, of course they were pissed off about losing their jobs. But as with your average swinging voter, these people simply went with what affected themselves most directly, and therefore they hated the idea of those pilots striking. A moot point.
Had the strike somehow proved to be a boon for them in the way like it did for GA charter, they'd have had tearful parades and ticker-tape the likes of which haven't been seen since Neil did his moon-walk.
Good on the National Debt pilots for growing a set although I think it is more a case of they have simply been pushed as far as they can be and now they are forced to stand up for themselves. I'd hardly call it militant unionism.
Oh yeah and PAF, telling these guys they shouldn't strike because it affects so many other people is noble but incredibly naieve. Show me a strike which hasn't affected others. Why aren't you up the rest of working society as well? (maybe you are but in my haste to reply, I stopped reading your posts...
)
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The NJS guys couldn’t have timed it better. Politically speaking, they can’t loose. This will be a hot potato for lil Johnny and a spud gun for Red Light Kev.
In no way will the Howard government disrupt any legal industrial action prior to the election. It is a work choices disaster and highlights perfectly how the legislation is flawed. Johnny will ignore it and Kevin will exploit it.
Well done guys. Not only for sticking up for yourselves, but for the guys/girls in the future. Don’t listen to PAF. He’s just someone who should know the importance of sticking together in hard times, instead rambling from a soap box in the sheltered workshop.
You all deserve your jobs. You will all deserve a debt of gratitude from your fellow professional aviators, and possibly anyone on an AWA.
In no way will the Howard government disrupt any legal industrial action prior to the election. It is a work choices disaster and highlights perfectly how the legislation is flawed. Johnny will ignore it and Kevin will exploit it.
Well done guys. Not only for sticking up for yourselves, but for the guys/girls in the future. Don’t listen to PAF. He’s just someone who should know the importance of sticking together in hard times, instead rambling from a soap box in the sheltered workshop.
You all deserve your jobs. You will all deserve a debt of gratitude from your fellow professional aviators, and possibly anyone on an AWA.
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Speaking of the gummint, PAF, are you a Herc-Jerc?
It won't be like the glory days of '89 that some of us remember so well - hotels, mini-bars, swimming pools, movie stars - but they should be able to clear out the backlog with the help of 36 Sqn.
Even better if they can fit a Globemaster into those mining strips...
Is that why you're so worried about possible industrial action? No 5-star hotels up in the Pilbara?
It won't be like the glory days of '89 that some of us remember so well - hotels, mini-bars, swimming pools, movie stars - but they should be able to clear out the backlog with the help of 36 Sqn.
Even better if they can fit a Globemaster into those mining strips...
Is that why you're so worried about possible industrial action? No 5-star hotels up in the Pilbara?
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PAF's entire argument is summed up with his quote...
THis is all about his political leanings and nothing more.
His idea of 'If you don't like it then QUIT" is exactly what Howard would want.It is nothing more than a cop out.It solves and achieves nothing except to maintain the existing condition which is exactly what the company and Howard wants.
PAF's quote when asked if he likes his job was "Not overly"
So he would like to leave his job but he can't so he tells everyone else to do that.Walking is his only solution to a conflict...brilliant
although I'd rather scratch my own eyes out with a pair of scissors than join a union)
His idea of 'If you don't like it then QUIT" is exactly what Howard would want.It is nothing more than a cop out.It solves and achieves nothing except to maintain the existing condition which is exactly what the company and Howard wants.
PAF's quote when asked if he likes his job was "Not overly"
So he would like to leave his job but he can't so he tells everyone else to do that.Walking is his only solution to a conflict...brilliant
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Erin has hit the nail on the head here.
It is going to punch smoking holes through the incumbent governments legislation and the opposition is going to milk it, no questions.
All I can say is the chooks let free a decade ago have come home to roost!
The decadence of employers in Australia, has been growing steadily stronger, it ascended with the fall out from New York and Ansett. It has been nurtured by the political climate and now those same managers have the gaul to say but its not…..us it was them.
Kids are not stupid and neither are a lot of the younger pilots. The pilots kept getting the raw end of the prawn and a lot of them have headed o/s, no progression from qlink, no step up to the big birds without being current with 3 shuttle landings, 10 IR renewals and oh you have to be under 28 any number of reasons.
The kids have seen this and basically said WTF??? Go through hell, to go bush with no planned future, oh and I have to pay for it! No thanks, I can be a garbo, chippie, plumber, lawyer, banker, glassie (maybe not), earn more, be home at night…….
And they wonder why the number of CPLs issued to Australian Citizens as plummeted faster than shares in a sub-prime mortgage lender.
QF & VB only get the numbers because they are the “Holy Grail” in oz, and shortly they too are going to have trouble. Just look at the Big Q’s expansion of the cadet program.
So chooks, come home and roost, bring it ON.
This has been brewing for a long time, I wish the NJS guys all the very best I hope that you are prepared to stick to your guns, because there are a lot of people watching what will happen, this is truly going to be a test case.
Be sure that the delegates with the help of the union have some professional PR because your gonna need it! Highlighting the difference between the salaries and training costs of pilots verse your average rig pig or mine rat in the Northwest is not going to cut it. You need to manipulate the media and play public perception as far as you can.
I wish you the very best.
Personally I am not under an EBA, AWA, or any such, I work for an employer that pays for my ratings, training, all my recruitment costs and in return I push their jets all over the world on an equal time rotation that sees me work six months a year.
Regret leaving oz. What do you think.
It is going to punch smoking holes through the incumbent governments legislation and the opposition is going to milk it, no questions.
All I can say is the chooks let free a decade ago have come home to roost!
The decadence of employers in Australia, has been growing steadily stronger, it ascended with the fall out from New York and Ansett. It has been nurtured by the political climate and now those same managers have the gaul to say but its not…..us it was them.
Kids are not stupid and neither are a lot of the younger pilots. The pilots kept getting the raw end of the prawn and a lot of them have headed o/s, no progression from qlink, no step up to the big birds without being current with 3 shuttle landings, 10 IR renewals and oh you have to be under 28 any number of reasons.
The kids have seen this and basically said WTF??? Go through hell, to go bush with no planned future, oh and I have to pay for it! No thanks, I can be a garbo, chippie, plumber, lawyer, banker, glassie (maybe not), earn more, be home at night…….
And they wonder why the number of CPLs issued to Australian Citizens as plummeted faster than shares in a sub-prime mortgage lender.
QF & VB only get the numbers because they are the “Holy Grail” in oz, and shortly they too are going to have trouble. Just look at the Big Q’s expansion of the cadet program.
So chooks, come home and roost, bring it ON.
This has been brewing for a long time, I wish the NJS guys all the very best I hope that you are prepared to stick to your guns, because there are a lot of people watching what will happen, this is truly going to be a test case.
Be sure that the delegates with the help of the union have some professional PR because your gonna need it! Highlighting the difference between the salaries and training costs of pilots verse your average rig pig or mine rat in the Northwest is not going to cut it. You need to manipulate the media and play public perception as far as you can.
I wish you the very best.
Personally I am not under an EBA, AWA, or any such, I work for an employer that pays for my ratings, training, all my recruitment costs and in return I push their jets all over the world on an equal time rotation that sees me work six months a year.
Regret leaving oz. What do you think.
Seems like PAF is the only person who will vote for John Howard later this year.
As for industrial relations, since you have obviously never been a member of a union, or had an importunate employer try and screw you, why don't you stop talking about things you know nothing about? Your purported economic arguments are also irrelevent.
Furthermore, PAF, you are a blatent hypocrite, because, in your protected little military sandbox, you enjoy working conditions including all sorts of perks, your own legal system, a byzantine system of pay, loadings and leave conditions, and grievance settling procedures, designed to keep you content and productive, that the average Australian unionist, doesn't have, and never will have, access to.
Still get Wednesday afternoon off for sport do we?
Still get waited on in the (highly subsidised) Mess?
Retention bonuses perhaps?
Free Education opportunities?
Free medical services?
All those lovely uniforms?
Lots of little men who salute you?
Free or subsidised accommodation with 24/7 security?
I remember an exercise where the RAAf pilots didn't even stay in the field, they were apparently required to be housed in "Motel style accomodation" (thems the words) and we had to arrange to pick them up and deliver the protected little dears home every day - they didn't even eat the same food.
All those lovely pay and loadings? I have a mate of mine who transferred to Darwin recently, he drove up the West Coast in his own car, all expenses paid by my taxes and had a lovely free holiday on the way. He just loves the lifestyle, the pay, the uniforms and the work isn't too hard at all.
Translation: Pot calling kettle black.
As for industrial relations, since you have obviously never been a member of a union, or had an importunate employer try and screw you, why don't you stop talking about things you know nothing about? Your purported economic arguments are also irrelevent.
Furthermore, PAF, you are a blatent hypocrite, because, in your protected little military sandbox, you enjoy working conditions including all sorts of perks, your own legal system, a byzantine system of pay, loadings and leave conditions, and grievance settling procedures, designed to keep you content and productive, that the average Australian unionist, doesn't have, and never will have, access to.
Still get Wednesday afternoon off for sport do we?
Still get waited on in the (highly subsidised) Mess?
Retention bonuses perhaps?
Free Education opportunities?
Free medical services?
All those lovely uniforms?
Lots of little men who salute you?
Free or subsidised accommodation with 24/7 security?
I remember an exercise where the RAAf pilots didn't even stay in the field, they were apparently required to be housed in "Motel style accomodation" (thems the words) and we had to arrange to pick them up and deliver the protected little dears home every day - they didn't even eat the same food.
All those lovely pay and loadings? I have a mate of mine who transferred to Darwin recently, he drove up the West Coast in his own car, all expenses paid by my taxes and had a lovely free holiday on the way. He just loves the lifestyle, the pay, the uniforms and the work isn't too hard at all.
Translation: Pot calling kettle black.
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Good on you NJS pilots!
As was mentioned earlier, this incident comes at quite a delicate time. It serves to highlight the issue of employers who have been exploiting the new legislation.
If Cobham have done wrong by their employees then I hope they are punished in full view of the media/public by the OWS.
All the very best to the NJS pilots with this. Im sure there are many, in the industry and government (and at least one in the military
!) who have a close eye on this.
If Cobham have done wrong by their employees then I hope they are punished in full view of the media/public by the OWS.
All the very best to the NJS pilots with this. Im sure there are many, in the industry and government (and at least one in the military
!) who have a close eye on this.
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PAF...seems like the people have spoken!!!
Do us all a favour and see if you can get yourself posted to Bagdad, i'm sure there are plenty of the sand folk waiting to meet you!!!
Do us all a favour and see if you can get yourself posted to Bagdad, i'm sure there are plenty of the sand folk waiting to meet you!!!
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PAF has to be a mate of one of those military dickheads in ADL.
Straight out of the Wazza's book "Minimum requirements for employment with NJS".
........although I'd rather scratch my own eyes out with a pair of scissors than join a union......
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PAF...seems like the people have spoken!!!
This has nothing to do with mil/non-mil. It's about the common misconception that, just because you had to work hard to get where you are, you are automatically entitled to the same money as other occupational groups. If money is your motivator, go work in the mines. If you want to be a pilot, accept that pay and conditions have been deteriorating for years, not because the industry is full of incompetent managers or greedy principals, but because margins and yields have been shrinking for years as well.
It is sad that Aussies so readily adopt the '50s UK union rhetoric that the ten pound poms brought to your shores. As you brothers in '89 found, and your cousins in Ansett NZ did too, industrial action rarely achieves the stated aims.
Unlike PAF, I have belonged to a union throughout my aviation career... but the union I belong to is rarely stupid enough to support industrial action over pay. And that is in a country where pay is frequently low, where type ratings or bonds are a prerequisite for any job, and where many young, struggling pilots have mortgages and kids. The difference is that, unlike Aussie pilots apparently, they understood that they get what they signed up for. Nobody put a gun to their head and made them work for a regional airline, they made a conscious choice and they understood the financial implications. Most are only doing it in an attempt to join the big boys - in other words, there is virtually no loyalty to the company in ANY regional operation.
In the end, it comes down to simple market forces. For example, there is a serious shortage of BAe 146 pilots worldwide at the moment, so the ones that are out there are commanding contract packages way above average. Some airlines (including mine) are now looking for pilots in Oz and NZ because we simply can't find any qualified people in Europe. Offers include work permits and JAA licences issued on the basis of Oz/NZ licences. Market forces. (BTW PM me if you are 146 qualified and fancy a Euro contract...
)PAF is right - a strike will harm everybody; the company, the travelling public, and definitely the pilots (to say nothing of the engineers, cabin crew etc who will get dragged into this). If a strike was to have the same result as, say, the Ansett NZ strike, the pilots will have cost a large number of people their jobs. And no, you cannot hang everything on the management, if you decide to strike, you bear the consequences.
If your intellect only stretches as far as "Yeah stick it to the b*stards", then you deserve all you get...
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Remoak, thanks for calling me mindless, appreciate that. Just because I have an opinion that agrees with others I'm in a mindless rabble. I'm just one of those bleeding heart, caffe latte drinking, tree hugging lefties. Are you in management? Woops, falling into your trap.
The point that I was trying to make to PAF, although not as eloquently as I'd have liked was, let the employees decide whats best for them. I don't work for NJ so I don't know what they are up against. I do know the pilot group are not stupid, so things must be grim if they are even thinking of industrial action, not strike mind you, industrial action.
It's very easy to stand back and make mondays expert calls. When you are there your opinions are valued. When you are not, you're like me, a passenger. If you are critical of the path they have taken so be it, but until you are at that particular coalface don't be surprised if people get annoyed because they may feel you don't know all the facts. No One likes industrial action, it is not good for either party. Thanks for pointing that out PAF, I didn't realise. Now I know, baby and bathwater thing.
My question would be why is it pilots can't expect to get a decent wage with CPI and good T&C's without having to move overseas? Is Australian aviation so tight that it cannot keep up with the rest of the world? If those margins are so tight how long can they be expected to survive if things just go a little weird, not on an industrial relations front but one of the many others that affect bottom lines in aviation?
Oh and lets no bag the RAAF too much. The ex ones I know are not so narrow minded as others we've read, or as vitriolic. PAF what I was trying to point out in my post was life experience sometimes changes your perspective. Now I don't know you and you don't know me so lets just agree we've had different life experiences eh.
The point that I was trying to make to PAF, although not as eloquently as I'd have liked was, let the employees decide whats best for them. I don't work for NJ so I don't know what they are up against. I do know the pilot group are not stupid, so things must be grim if they are even thinking of industrial action, not strike mind you, industrial action.
It's very easy to stand back and make mondays expert calls. When you are there your opinions are valued. When you are not, you're like me, a passenger. If you are critical of the path they have taken so be it, but until you are at that particular coalface don't be surprised if people get annoyed because they may feel you don't know all the facts. No One likes industrial action, it is not good for either party. Thanks for pointing that out PAF, I didn't realise. Now I know, baby and bathwater thing.
My question would be why is it pilots can't expect to get a decent wage with CPI and good T&C's without having to move overseas? Is Australian aviation so tight that it cannot keep up with the rest of the world? If those margins are so tight how long can they be expected to survive if things just go a little weird, not on an industrial relations front but one of the many others that affect bottom lines in aviation?
Oh and lets no bag the RAAF too much. The ex ones I know are not so narrow minded as others we've read, or as vitriolic. PAF what I was trying to point out in my post was life experience sometimes changes your perspective. Now I don't know you and you don't know me so lets just agree we've had different life experiences eh.
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What tha!!???
Remoak old chap, so you advocate, bend over stick your head in the sand and take it up the ar5e like a good ol boy??!!!
Yes margins are getting tighter but have you noticed the profits are still climbing!! Check out QF, CX, VB etc etc But alas, lets cut the pay and conditions of the workers so we can stuff our pockets with more cash/power!!!!
A company gets a union it deserves!!!
We in a profession that not that long ago was quite a respectable one. Companies have managed to degrade it to suit their profit needs. We still have to fork out all that cash for our own training, go through years of flying and more training in the hope that a major airline will look at us. It took me 9 years of hard slogging to get to one, cost me untold amount of money and i still have to keep studying, doing checks etc etc. Show me a fu%$ing miner that has to do that you weak moron!!!
Yes margins are getting tighter but have you noticed the profits are still climbing!! Check out QF, CX, VB etc etc But alas, lets cut the pay and conditions of the workers so we can stuff our pockets with more cash/power!!!!
A company gets a union it deserves!!!
We in a profession that not that long ago was quite a respectable one. Companies have managed to degrade it to suit their profit needs. We still have to fork out all that cash for our own training, go through years of flying and more training in the hope that a major airline will look at us. It took me 9 years of hard slogging to get to one, cost me untold amount of money and i still have to keep studying, doing checks etc etc. Show me a fu%$ing miner that has to do that you weak moron!!!
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remoak posted
margins and yields have been shrinking?
Tell that to the consortium that were willing to borrow billions to buy the company.If they thought it was a good thing then the margins are still OK
What about the record profit that the company recently announced?
What was that you said about shrinking margins and yields.
accept that pay and conditions have been deteriorating for years, not because the industry is full of incompetent managers or greedy principals, but because margins and yields have been shrinking for years as well.
Tell that to the consortium that were willing to borrow billions to buy the company.If they thought it was a good thing then the margins are still OK
What about the record profit that the company recently announced?
What was that you said about shrinking margins and yields.