Rex recruiting coming to a town near you!
As this thread has raged on for a while, it's probably worth throwing some perspective into the fray from a silent observer.
As a long term industrial man and fully versed at both the Industrial and Corporate ends in the Airline business, I can tell you that you are both correct.
Your problem is simply, you have outgrown the 30 seat market and have done so for some time. Rex has for reasons unknown resisted the step up to High Capacity Aircraft for years and to not do so is ultimately fatal.
A 70 to 100 seat Aircraft, two flights a day, morning and evening service,deployed over your high yield routes will resolve most arguments from both ends of the business.
Having said that, if you must remain with an all 30 seat saab fleet, your new hires only need to be young 300 hour pilots, no multi engine experience required. Don't worry, they learn quick and will be just as good as you in no time. Europe has been doing it that way for decades, it works there and it works here too, it's just a matter of getting your head around it.
It's fair to say that Rex Pilots pay scales are appropriate for the class of operation, however, in the current labour market they fall way short of expectations, this would not be the case if you were a high capacity operation and clearly you should be. That issue falls squarely on the shoulders of Corporate Management, not middle management who are usually the ones who take the heat over these issues.
Hope this provides a clearer perspective of the issue
As a long term industrial man and fully versed at both the Industrial and Corporate ends in the Airline business, I can tell you that you are both correct.
Your problem is simply, you have outgrown the 30 seat market and have done so for some time. Rex has for reasons unknown resisted the step up to High Capacity Aircraft for years and to not do so is ultimately fatal.
A 70 to 100 seat Aircraft, two flights a day, morning and evening service,deployed over your high yield routes will resolve most arguments from both ends of the business.
Having said that, if you must remain with an all 30 seat saab fleet, your new hires only need to be young 300 hour pilots, no multi engine experience required. Don't worry, they learn quick and will be just as good as you in no time. Europe has been doing it that way for decades, it works there and it works here too, it's just a matter of getting your head around it.
It's fair to say that Rex Pilots pay scales are appropriate for the class of operation, however, in the current labour market they fall way short of expectations, this would not be the case if you were a high capacity operation and clearly you should be. That issue falls squarely on the shoulders of Corporate Management, not middle management who are usually the ones who take the heat over these issues.
Hope this provides a clearer perspective of the issue
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: oz
Posts: 12
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Look out...cadets???
Rumour has it, now after the unsuccessful recruitment drive around OZ, not only are they interviewing overseas, but I hear there are big discussions with setting up cadet schemes with flying schools.......................anyone else heard this?
Aircraft is spot on the money, he obviously sounds like he has some training in accounting. The level of remuneration for pilots is quite a different matter to market forces and pricing stategies. Its all quite amusing for me(who has a masters degree in accounting.......and several thousand hrs as well and an ATPL) to see pilots, and other professions carrying on about topics they nether comprehend or have even thought about rationally.
Pilots should stick to piloting and accountants stick to accounting.
Pilots should stick to piloting and accountants stick to accounting.
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Australia
Posts: 159
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Blah, blah, blah.
Having only attended the University of Common Sense myself, maybe you blokes can educate me. Are you saying that an increase in ticket prices of $5 will make or break company profits? A simple 'yes' or 'no' answer will be sufficient.
(Hint : Before you answer, take into consideration how much effect fuel surcharges/security levies etc etc (all way in excess of $5) have had on the bottom line.)
Having only attended the University of Common Sense myself, maybe you blokes can educate me. Are you saying that an increase in ticket prices of $5 will make or break company profits? A simple 'yes' or 'no' answer will be sufficient.
(Hint : Before you answer, take into consideration how much effect fuel surcharges/security levies etc etc (all way in excess of $5) have had on the bottom line.)
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Australia
Posts: 22
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Outflanked again
If Rex are about to employ a considerable amount of pilots from Eastern Europe then you may as well go and get a degree in accounting.
The supply/demand equation will be fixed (may even go the other way - you know "these boys will do the job for XX less than you").
Could be game, set and match for the pilot group in Rex.
The supply/demand equation will be fixed (may even go the other way - you know "these boys will do the job for XX less than you").
Could be game, set and match for the pilot group in Rex.
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Roguesville, cloud cuckooland
Posts: 1,197
Likes: 0
Received 16 Likes
on
5 Posts
How is this for economics 101?
Pilots leave=aircraft grounded=airline goes bust.
I don't think anyone needs a masters in economics to comprehend that.
Pilots leave=aircraft grounded=airline goes bust.
I don't think anyone needs a masters in economics to comprehend that.
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Back again.
Posts: 1,140
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A couple of points:
First, if Rex want to get pilots from Eastern Europe, then good luck to them. Maybe they can bring in some Ukranian controllers and LAME's while they're at it. Desperate measures. Maybe CASA can make a few bucks from the imports.
Who cares??? That's what management have to work out. Other jobs are available and pilots can move on. Eastern Europeans are going to work out very quickly that other options abound in Australia and back overseas with Australian experience.
There is a reality looming on Rex management that is quickly overtaking consideration for elasticity of demand and load factors. It's providing them with only two options: raise prices and accept less passengers, or continue to sell tickets at current prices and not have pilots available to crew the aircraft. Neither option is desirable, but that's the hand they have to work with.
How much to raise pay? Anything less than 30% will not stem the drain of pilots leaving for other professions/companies, or attract enough school leavers into the profession. No one wants to see prices go up, but 20 years or more of static wages and eroded conditions has taken its toll.
And the greater concern is that this potential pilot shortage is only in the very early stages. It's not going to hit a peak (or trough) until around 2012-2015.
First, if Rex want to get pilots from Eastern Europe, then good luck to them. Maybe they can bring in some Ukranian controllers and LAME's while they're at it. Desperate measures. Maybe CASA can make a few bucks from the imports.
Where will that money come from?
There is a reality looming on Rex management that is quickly overtaking consideration for elasticity of demand and load factors. It's providing them with only two options: raise prices and accept less passengers, or continue to sell tickets at current prices and not have pilots available to crew the aircraft. Neither option is desirable, but that's the hand they have to work with.
How much to raise pay? Anything less than 30% will not stem the drain of pilots leaving for other professions/companies, or attract enough school leavers into the profession. No one wants to see prices go up, but 20 years or more of static wages and eroded conditions has taken its toll.
And the greater concern is that this potential pilot shortage is only in the very early stages. It's not going to hit a peak (or trough) until around 2012-2015.
Pilots from East Europe, well thats laughable and anyone that thinks that's going to happen is dreaming. Even if the offer was tempting they wouldn't come, no different to you wouldn't go there for the same offer. The only people that think Australia is the place to be are Australians. But that's another story.
Rex will have to increase it's fares and will need to pay a Labour Retention Bonus through this period of High Labour Opportunities. You need to be united and bargain collectively. By that, this means you have to agree on what you want and how to move forward as a collective pilot group, no breakaway splinters. The Company needs to stop bringing in more Saab's bite the bullet and go High Capacity.
If Rex doesn't acheive either of those things within the next two years, it will probably cease to exist, either by staff numbers, or being run over by competative opposition. Both sides needs to stop whining about it and get it done.
Rex will have to increase it's fares and will need to pay a Labour Retention Bonus through this period of High Labour Opportunities. You need to be united and bargain collectively. By that, this means you have to agree on what you want and how to move forward as a collective pilot group, no breakaway splinters. The Company needs to stop bringing in more Saab's bite the bullet and go High Capacity.
If Rex doesn't acheive either of those things within the next two years, it will probably cease to exist, either by staff numbers, or being run over by competative opposition. Both sides needs to stop whining about it and get it done.
I've been pushing this barrow for some time now. It is just my opinion, but obviously shared by a great many out there. As well there are those who disagree with me, and I guess only time will tell who is right.
Here's some food for thought. Ask any bank-runner what he or she is making per day (casual) or fortnightly if fulltime. 16 years ago, when I was doing it, I was paid $180 per day! 5 years later the same company was paying $150 per day. 5 years after that they were screwing them down to $120 per day. Classic supply and demand stuff. But seized upon by management, who's only focus was increasing profits.
Obviously it is vital that companies remain viable, but jesus wept! this whole cycle of exploitation has led us to where we are today.
Lowdown is right. The true worth of the regional airline pilot today is approx 30% more in monetary tems to what they are currently being paid.
Management are living in the past. the old doctrine of simply replace those you lose is truely building a house on sand. From the heady boy's own adventure days of more than 20 years ago, the profession is now about as popular as a pork chop at a jewish christening!
As far as cadets for REX is concerned, this may be a real possibility. As an experiment the company has taken on in it's latest ground school a bare CPL with instrument rating. Apparently, quite a clever and pleasant chap. How he fares may form future policy in this area?
Rex is like a bucket of water with holes in it. The logical choice would be to mend the holes and save the water. What they are attempting to do is fill the bucket at a rate equal to or greater than the loss. The problem is we are in a drought the likes of which has not been seen in generations.
Here's some food for thought. Ask any bank-runner what he or she is making per day (casual) or fortnightly if fulltime. 16 years ago, when I was doing it, I was paid $180 per day! 5 years later the same company was paying $150 per day. 5 years after that they were screwing them down to $120 per day. Classic supply and demand stuff. But seized upon by management, who's only focus was increasing profits.
Obviously it is vital that companies remain viable, but jesus wept! this whole cycle of exploitation has led us to where we are today.
Lowdown is right. The true worth of the regional airline pilot today is approx 30% more in monetary tems to what they are currently being paid.
Management are living in the past. the old doctrine of simply replace those you lose is truely building a house on sand. From the heady boy's own adventure days of more than 20 years ago, the profession is now about as popular as a pork chop at a jewish christening!
As far as cadets for REX is concerned, this may be a real possibility. As an experiment the company has taken on in it's latest ground school a bare CPL with instrument rating. Apparently, quite a clever and pleasant chap. How he fares may form future policy in this area?
Rex is like a bucket of water with holes in it. The logical choice would be to mend the holes and save the water. What they are attempting to do is fill the bucket at a rate equal to or greater than the loss. The problem is we are in a drought the likes of which has not been seen in generations.
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Australia
Posts: 22
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Look at todays Oz - Aviation Section (wish I knew how to create a link - but I don't).
Bingo - Minister about to approve (and encourage I would suggest) the use of foreign flight crew.
And from the Ukraine, I would think Australia might look very nice indeed.
Bingo - Minister about to approve (and encourage I would suggest) the use of foreign flight crew.
And from the Ukraine, I would think Australia might look very nice indeed.
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Posts: 116
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Rumours
SO many rumours so little time.
Only 13 acceptable candidates from the Road Show.
FLights being cancelled due lack of crew - true.
Talk of setting up REX FLYING SCHOOL using brand new singles and twins. OMG !!! But I still can't get a rain coat for the bad days!!!
I must say larger aircraft is a great idea...what with 6 return flights per weekday, say, SYD - WGA and all flights full!! There must be better economies of scale.
Only 13 acceptable candidates from the Road Show.
FLights being cancelled due lack of crew - true.
Talk of setting up REX FLYING SCHOOL using brand new singles and twins. OMG !!! But I still can't get a rain coat for the bad days!!!
I must say larger aircraft is a great idea...what with 6 return flights per weekday, say, SYD - WGA and all flights full!! There must be better economies of scale.
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Tin Can
Posts: 86
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I seem to recall that sometime in the distant past when it was suggested that an arbitrary pay rise of around 30% for pilots might be worth bantering around that this ludicrous thought was nipped in the bud by the rapid and judicious use of foreign pilots. 
There is no shortage of Australian pilots just a shortage of Australian pilots in Australia....go figure.
There is no shortage of Australian pilots just a shortage of Australian pilots in Australia....go figure.
radnav,
More like a 40% payrise would be required this time around!
As well, the problem is global and nothing short of the above figure would be needed to attract most overseas candidates.
Once the dust settled on that little war 18 years ago, the pay had in fact rissen to above the 29% being demanded!
Truely ironic!
More like a 40% payrise would be required this time around!
As well, the problem is global and nothing short of the above figure would be needed to attract most overseas candidates.
Once the dust settled on that little war 18 years ago, the pay had in fact rissen to above the 29% being demanded!
Truely ironic!
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Australia
Age: 60
Posts: 277
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yes, and the thousands of Australian pilots who were forced over seas to be replaced by less experienced foreign pilots and those who have subsequently joined them are still out there. Australian aviators have formed the core component of many over seas airline''s expat employees. Thus helping to build the very stiff competition that Australian airlines now face.
Australian airline management created this problem themselves and will have to deal with it.
If the conditions were to improve there would not be a shortage of pilots in Australia at all. Some would return home and younger troops would flood the flying schools. But obviously this is unlikely, management really don't like to do the obvious.
Australian airline management created this problem themselves and will have to deal with it.
If the conditions were to improve there would not be a shortage of pilots in Australia at all. Some would return home and younger troops would flood the flying schools. But obviously this is unlikely, management really don't like to do the obvious.
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: 'straya!
Posts: 217
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Quote from the article:
WELL SAID THAT MAN
They've got to start making piloting, ground engineering and some of those skilled professional areas attractive again," Mr O'Connell said. "They've been squeezed so much in work conditions, in degradation of salaries, and people have a lot better options now than used to exist 10 years ago.
Lodown said:
Who cares??? That's what management have to work out.
Who cares? Err, you do. To the question of where the money must come from, the answer is very simple, as there is only one answer: the travelling public.
KRUSTY 34:
But, raise the ticket prices by the amounts implied by this statement and you will so dampen demand for air travel that there will no longer be a pilot "shortage" - it will be a pilot surplus. Operators will be laying pilots off.
You care.
Where will that money come from?
KRUSTY 34:
More like a 40% payrise would be required this time around!
You care.
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Bahrain
Posts: 8
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Spot On !!
This is spot on !!!
Forget the 40 % payrise, thats just ridiculous head of pilot committee talk, its based on no fact and a number this fool plucked out of his arse !!
Forget economy of scale etc for a sec guys, the raincoat line is spot on, the problems in REX are systemic and deep. No raincoats, no aircons, no servicable GPUs it goes on and on and on and on and on.............Geoff just says "we're working on it" thats solves the problem in the mean time until he cultivates himself some balls and stands up to whoever is required to get the results ...sadly Geoff
is not a results man.
Forget payrises and the like for a minute (not permanently) there are a considerable number of things at REX like raincoats, carparking, adequate breaks etc that management could fix now but WONT.
That alone should tell everyone what the companies actual position is.
The CP is currently busting his balls to get pilots just so he can say "See there is no shortage"
BLIND LEADING THE BLIND
MOVE ON PEOPLE MOVE ON
Forget the 40 % payrise, thats just ridiculous head of pilot committee talk, its based on no fact and a number this fool plucked out of his arse !!
Forget economy of scale etc for a sec guys, the raincoat line is spot on, the problems in REX are systemic and deep. No raincoats, no aircons, no servicable GPUs it goes on and on and on and on and on.............Geoff just says "we're working on it" thats solves the problem in the mean time until he cultivates himself some balls and stands up to whoever is required to get the results ...sadly Geoff
is not a results man.Forget payrises and the like for a minute (not permanently) there are a considerable number of things at REX like raincoats, carparking, adequate breaks etc that management could fix now but WONT.
That alone should tell everyone what the companies actual position is.
The CP is currently busting his balls to get pilots just so he can say "See there is no shortage"
BLIND LEADING THE BLIND
MOVE ON PEOPLE MOVE ON
JEEEZUSS!!!
Shaker,
Who are you? Aircraft's love child!
I've heard some spray in my time, but your's would fill an olympic swimming pool.
You my friend are a bully. And like all bullys a complete coward. By your post I take it you are a current REX employee. Instead of cr@pping on about what others are not doing, how about showing some backbone and step up with your time and efforts and enlighten all of us as to how you would deal with intractible management?
I was speaking to the Chairman of the REXPC last week, and he is just as frustrated as most REX pilots. The idea of a 40% payrise, while sounding outrageous to some, would bring the base salary of a first year F/O up to $57K PA. That my saliva dripping friend is approx 5% higher than the "average" Australian wage, and I would suggest in the current environment a bargain!
Aircraft,
Whether it's 40%, 10%, or whatever, the fact remains that the industry is in such decline as a career for one reason only. It is just not worth it any more. There will always be the diehard passionate ones who are so single minded that they will overcome almost anything to fly, but in the end they are becoming much thinner on the ground. Especially so when you look at the "REWARDS" to be found at the end of the rainbow.
And F.Y.I. The cost of such an adjustment (the 40%) would be in the order of $6.25 a ticket! While the ticket price of regional services are generally higher than those of the Domestic airlines, on average, travelling with REX is around 50% cheaper that what it was a decade ago!
This is testiment to the prodidgeous efforts of company management, (Yes credit where credit due), in retireing debt, cutting waste, and growing the business. Believe me the travelling public will pay, and with many airline fares barely more than the associated taxes and charges, they will barely notice!
After all that hard work, Management are now prepared to put all that at risk.
It defies belief.
As my friends, so do you!
Shaker,
Who are you? Aircraft's love child!
I've heard some spray in my time, but your's would fill an olympic swimming pool.
You my friend are a bully. And like all bullys a complete coward. By your post I take it you are a current REX employee. Instead of cr@pping on about what others are not doing, how about showing some backbone and step up with your time and efforts and enlighten all of us as to how you would deal with intractible management?
I was speaking to the Chairman of the REXPC last week, and he is just as frustrated as most REX pilots. The idea of a 40% payrise, while sounding outrageous to some, would bring the base salary of a first year F/O up to $57K PA. That my saliva dripping friend is approx 5% higher than the "average" Australian wage, and I would suggest in the current environment a bargain!
Aircraft,
Whether it's 40%, 10%, or whatever, the fact remains that the industry is in such decline as a career for one reason only. It is just not worth it any more. There will always be the diehard passionate ones who are so single minded that they will overcome almost anything to fly, but in the end they are becoming much thinner on the ground. Especially so when you look at the "REWARDS" to be found at the end of the rainbow.
And F.Y.I. The cost of such an adjustment (the 40%) would be in the order of $6.25 a ticket! While the ticket price of regional services are generally higher than those of the Domestic airlines, on average, travelling with REX is around 50% cheaper that what it was a decade ago!
This is testiment to the prodidgeous efforts of company management, (Yes credit where credit due), in retireing debt, cutting waste, and growing the business. Believe me the travelling public will pay, and with many airline fares barely more than the associated taxes and charges, they will barely notice!
After all that hard work, Management are now prepared to put all that at risk.
It defies belief.
As my friends, so do you!