Tiger on the prowl
McDonalds have a highly successfull business model, but no one raves about the quality of their food. Far easier to find a Maccas nearby than a quality restaurant.
I've never seen advertising from Tiger that stresses anything other than the fare, and that's the where they will sit in the market in Australia. Catering to people who care about price and that's it. If you want service and frills go elsewhere.
Out of Tiger's home base in Singapore, Singapore Airlines operate up to five B777s a day to Bangkok, catering to people who are prepared to pay extra for their award winning service. Tiger operate up to three A320s a day on the same route catering to those who aren't. The question for Australia is are there enough people prepared to pay full service fares to keep the likes of QF in business, there is no shortage of flannelette shirt/track suit bottom/thong wearing passengers for Tiger.
I've never seen advertising from Tiger that stresses anything other than the fare, and that's the where they will sit in the market in Australia. Catering to people who care about price and that's it. If you want service and frills go elsewhere.
Out of Tiger's home base in Singapore, Singapore Airlines operate up to five B777s a day to Bangkok, catering to people who are prepared to pay extra for their award winning service. Tiger operate up to three A320s a day on the same route catering to those who aren't. The question for Australia is are there enough people prepared to pay full service fares to keep the likes of QF in business, there is no shortage of flannelette shirt/track suit bottom/thong wearing passengers for Tiger.
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[QUOTECan anyone with a finance or accounting background care to explain to us how Tiger are going to be cheaper and be profitable?
Given compared to Jetstar they have:
The same aircraft
The same routes
Same airport fees
Operate under the same regulations
Burn the same fuel
Staff costs one would guess are going to be the same or higher. And even if they get foreign pilots/crew they get paid more that Jetstar anyway
So how are they going to be so much cheaper than Jetstar?
Unless this is all a big game and Singapore are trying to get back at QF or something similar.[/QUOTE]
- THe same aircraft? True, but did they cost the same. All kinds of deals are done, just like you or me purchasing a car. As a result, aircraft financing cosrts are not the same.
- Same airport fees? Not necessarily so as again, deals are done to 'encourage' airlines to use particular airports. Most of Jetstars start-up deals would have been done and dusted' by the time Tiger gets going.
- Burn the same fuel? But at the same cost? No bloody way.
- Staff costs the same? In the days of TN and AN, al ground staff were paid pretty much the same on account of the ASU, TWU, FCU, AFAP etc. etc. agreements, the same salaries/wages applied across the industry for the same work. These days are well and truly passed and wage costs vary enormously between employers and service providers. All overheads will vary.
In summary, Tiger may well offer a lower price to the public until they develop a certain critical mass when a lot of fixed costs will start to bite. Jetstar started 'lean and mean' but as it grows, it will become just as bloated as any other bureaucracy wirh overheads always heading north: mean but not lean??
Given compared to Jetstar they have:
The same aircraft
The same routes
Same airport fees
Operate under the same regulations
Burn the same fuel
Staff costs one would guess are going to be the same or higher. And even if they get foreign pilots/crew they get paid more that Jetstar anyway
So how are they going to be so much cheaper than Jetstar?
Unless this is all a big game and Singapore are trying to get back at QF or something similar.[/QUOTE]
- THe same aircraft? True, but did they cost the same. All kinds of deals are done, just like you or me purchasing a car. As a result, aircraft financing cosrts are not the same.
- Same airport fees? Not necessarily so as again, deals are done to 'encourage' airlines to use particular airports. Most of Jetstars start-up deals would have been done and dusted' by the time Tiger gets going.
- Burn the same fuel? But at the same cost? No bloody way.
- Staff costs the same? In the days of TN and AN, al ground staff were paid pretty much the same on account of the ASU, TWU, FCU, AFAP etc. etc. agreements, the same salaries/wages applied across the industry for the same work. These days are well and truly passed and wage costs vary enormously between employers and service providers. All overheads will vary.
In summary, Tiger may well offer a lower price to the public until they develop a certain critical mass when a lot of fixed costs will start to bite. Jetstar started 'lean and mean' but as it grows, it will become just as bloated as any other bureaucracy wirh overheads always heading north: mean but not lean??
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Could they have better tax breaks????
I know from a previous life forgien companies working in Australia were only subject to their home countries tax, in certain mining area. I think at the time it was a break to encourage the industry that was in a slump. Worked, its going off now.
Could it be possible they aren't subject to all Aussie taxes?
Also, even if wages are same per person, likely they will have less people at the top end. Look in Melb now, there at not hundreds of people to get this off the ground, no Alan J* pay packets down there. There is only a handful. Jet* started with queit a number of highend ultrahigh salaries.
Could it be possible they aren't subject to all Aussie taxes?
Also, even if wages are same per person, likely they will have less people at the top end. Look in Melb now, there at not hundreds of people to get this off the ground, no Alan J* pay packets down there. There is only a handful. Jet* started with queit a number of highend ultrahigh salaries.
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Money, money, moneeeeeyyy....
My friend (who should know) is coming to Oz this week to tidy up the loose ends and tells me this:
Pay; Just waiting for the VB EBA to settle. Then Tiger can announce that they have the highest paid LC pilots in the world. (Makes recruitment easier!) Still holding on AUD180K base, plus super, etc.
Lose money/ make money; SIA doesn't care how much they need to throw on the fire, this is PAYBACK for AN time! Also once they float Tiger, SIA will receive the real prize: THE PACIFIC routes.
Aircraft; 55 320s, initally 12 330s and eventually ALL of SIAs 340-500s. Why? Because SIA doesn't want them nor need them...but they do want that Pacific Route!
SIA is going to stroke this pussy for as long as it takes. Maybe there is a major change in the wind downunder...imagine pilots being paid very well, having a passion about the airline they fly for and actually enjoying their jobs!!
seems simple and sensible to me...
Pay; Just waiting for the VB EBA to settle. Then Tiger can announce that they have the highest paid LC pilots in the world. (Makes recruitment easier!) Still holding on AUD180K base, plus super, etc.
Lose money/ make money; SIA doesn't care how much they need to throw on the fire, this is PAYBACK for AN time! Also once they float Tiger, SIA will receive the real prize: THE PACIFIC routes.
Aircraft; 55 320s, initally 12 330s and eventually ALL of SIAs 340-500s. Why? Because SIA doesn't want them nor need them...but they do want that Pacific Route!
SIA is going to stroke this pussy for as long as it takes. Maybe there is a major change in the wind downunder...imagine pilots being paid very well, having a passion about the airline they fly for and actually enjoying their jobs!!
seems simple and sensible to me...
Last edited by UNOME; 24th Jun 2007 at 06:50.
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Unome,
A couple of questions regarding your friends leaked information.
Pay. Why would Tiger wait for Virgin EBA to settle? If they wanted to shake things up a bit and were going to offer more money, then the smart idea would be do do it whilst the EBA is open and create more chaos for Virgin.
Float Tiger? How is that going to give SIA access to the Pacific? SIA is still a foreign airline and the gov't policy is a case by case basis for air rights. Tiger may get the pacific in its own right, but not SIA by default.
Also, the goose that lays the golden egg on the pacific is business/first. Are Tiger going upmarket? Also, if Tiger fly the pacific, then it makes SIA lobbying to fly the route even more unlikely to succeed. SIA want the pacific for SIA, not Tiger (that is second place, something the Singaporeans will not accept).
Don't get me wrong, I think Tiger are no dummies. I think they will take a measured approach to Aus, they are not going to throw 55 jets this way straight away but will build over 5-10yrs as the market expands as well. Maybe over this time there will be enough room for 4 majors - 2 premium, 2 discount, without too much of a bloodbath. For workers in all companies, I hope that will be the way it plays out.
Finally, I think Tiger are in for a bit of a hard time. The media will be watching them very very closely, any stuff-ups will be a big media deal. Remember, Australians can be quite xenophobic.
A couple of questions regarding your friends leaked information.
Pay. Why would Tiger wait for Virgin EBA to settle? If they wanted to shake things up a bit and were going to offer more money, then the smart idea would be do do it whilst the EBA is open and create more chaos for Virgin.
Float Tiger? How is that going to give SIA access to the Pacific? SIA is still a foreign airline and the gov't policy is a case by case basis for air rights. Tiger may get the pacific in its own right, but not SIA by default.
Also, the goose that lays the golden egg on the pacific is business/first. Are Tiger going upmarket? Also, if Tiger fly the pacific, then it makes SIA lobbying to fly the route even more unlikely to succeed. SIA want the pacific for SIA, not Tiger (that is second place, something the Singaporeans will not accept).
Don't get me wrong, I think Tiger are no dummies. I think they will take a measured approach to Aus, they are not going to throw 55 jets this way straight away but will build over 5-10yrs as the market expands as well. Maybe over this time there will be enough room for 4 majors - 2 premium, 2 discount, without too much of a bloodbath. For workers in all companies, I hope that will be the way it plays out.
Finally, I think Tiger are in for a bit of a hard time. The media will be watching them very very closely, any stuff-ups will be a big media deal. Remember, Australians can be quite xenophobic.
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Murga
In reply to your Qs;
1. Pay. Answered above.
2. Float Tiger? Yes, ASAP as far as I know.
3. How does that help SIA? They own most of Tiger now...float it...re-brand it later. Ahhh so you firmly believe that Jetstar is totally autonomous to Qantas..okay now I understand you!
4. The Goose that lays the largest golden egg may be a low cost business class...
5. 55 jets will take 10 years...and it took VB how long?? How much more cash does SIA have and is willing to provide?? Which market is Tiger shooting for?? According to you, the past has no bearing on the immediate future.
6. All airlines sometimes drop the ball..it's how well you pick it back up that makes the difference.
7. Why are all of you Melburnians xenophobs??
1. Pay. Answered above.
2. Float Tiger? Yes, ASAP as far as I know.
3. How does that help SIA? They own most of Tiger now...float it...re-brand it later. Ahhh so you firmly believe that Jetstar is totally autonomous to Qantas..okay now I understand you!
4. The Goose that lays the largest golden egg may be a low cost business class...
5. 55 jets will take 10 years...and it took VB how long?? How much more cash does SIA have and is willing to provide?? Which market is Tiger shooting for?? According to you, the past has no bearing on the immediate future.
6. All airlines sometimes drop the ball..it's how well you pick it back up that makes the difference.
7. Why are all of you Melburnians xenophobs??
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It will be interesting but fromwhat I hear from one of the guys that has done the Tiger interview.
1. Money $164000 ( to get to 190 add super and a bit of overtime) so really probably $175000. This is well below Ryanair etc depending on how you account for different tax rates , currency conversions etc.
2. If they are floating and want to do it quick then they will need to be making money. That should be interesting in a market full of capacity and low airfares. My understanding is that they haven't made money yet so that should make them attractive to the underwriters.
3. It is possible now for Singapore to set up a Australian owned company to run their international out of Australia. It was done by Ansett international so that can't be that much of an issue.
4. The reason that VB got 55 jets is due to Ansett collapsing and also growing the market over the years. The singaporeans do have money but I haven't yet come across one that would waste money just to have an airline in Australia. If that was the case they would have started one a long time ago.
5. Geese or not business class is dominated by product / frequent flyer points / lounges etc. If they don't have those then it doesn't matter. Ozjet comes to mind really with low cost business class. That really worked a treat.
6. Where are all these A330s and 50 A320s going to pull up at all of these airports? ONly Melbourne and Coolangatta at this stage so it should be interesting to see.
With all of these aircraft coming in next year if you can't get a job as an Airline pilot you may as well give up.
1. Money $164000 ( to get to 190 add super and a bit of overtime) so really probably $175000. This is well below Ryanair etc depending on how you account for different tax rates , currency conversions etc.
2. If they are floating and want to do it quick then they will need to be making money. That should be interesting in a market full of capacity and low airfares. My understanding is that they haven't made money yet so that should make them attractive to the underwriters.
3. It is possible now for Singapore to set up a Australian owned company to run their international out of Australia. It was done by Ansett international so that can't be that much of an issue.
4. The reason that VB got 55 jets is due to Ansett collapsing and also growing the market over the years. The singaporeans do have money but I haven't yet come across one that would waste money just to have an airline in Australia. If that was the case they would have started one a long time ago.
5. Geese or not business class is dominated by product / frequent flyer points / lounges etc. If they don't have those then it doesn't matter. Ozjet comes to mind really with low cost business class. That really worked a treat.
6. Where are all these A330s and 50 A320s going to pull up at all of these airports? ONly Melbourne and Coolangatta at this stage so it should be interesting to see.
With all of these aircraft coming in next year if you can't get a job as an Airline pilot you may as well give up.
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tiger response
has anyone actually got any reply from any EOI to Tiger at the web address above?? OR are they keeping it a secret?
Any info on ops out of PER on a 330 gets my interest up a bit.
Any info on ops out of PER on a 330 gets my interest up a bit.
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Coal
1. Your mate is basing his figures on what the Singapore based Capts are paid i.e average SGD200,000 (@ 10% tax). I am told that the Australian contract has not been released to even those employed by Tiger for the Oz operation therefore, I seriously doubt that your friends info is valid. AUD180 base plus super and o/t is still my "ballpark" guess.
2. Profit is in the purchase. Maybe the thinking is not what it has earned in the short term but; A) who is the backer? (SIA) and B) what improvement potential the share price has = shareholder profit?
BTW Who are the most profitable Airlines in the world?
3. Concur
4. SIA has a long memory. Once bit... twice as determined! They have been trying to get Pacific rights for how long?? Will GoD ever let them??
5. Why do people fly Business Class? Seat size is the most important factor. Maybe Tiger will be offering a regular seat or supersize me!
6. Mel,Adl (Old terminal), Per, Brm, Drw, Asp, Cns, Tsv, Mky, etc but not at SYD... Build it and they will come...
Getting pilots will be the problem. Possibly some of us old guys could cash up from QF and do a retirement gig?
2. Profit is in the purchase. Maybe the thinking is not what it has earned in the short term but; A) who is the backer? (SIA) and B) what improvement potential the share price has = shareholder profit?
BTW Who are the most profitable Airlines in the world?
3. Concur
4. SIA has a long memory. Once bit... twice as determined! They have been trying to get Pacific rights for how long?? Will GoD ever let them??
5. Why do people fly Business Class? Seat size is the most important factor. Maybe Tiger will be offering a regular seat or supersize me!
6. Mel,Adl (Old terminal), Per, Brm, Drw, Asp, Cns, Tsv, Mky, etc but not at SYD... Build it and they will come...
Getting pilots will be the problem. Possibly some of us old guys could cash up from QF and do a retirement gig?
Last edited by UNOME; 25th Jun 2007 at 14:26.
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SQ certainly have long memories, especially about the Pacific route.
Try this scenario. Tiger offer a ridiculously low fare to SIN ON CONDITION that the purchaser also purchases an SQ ticket (any class) from SIN to the US. The punter obtains a VERY low cost SIN stopover (if desired) for a very competitive fare to the US. Just a possibility?
Try this scenario. Tiger offer a ridiculously low fare to SIN ON CONDITION that the purchaser also purchases an SQ ticket (any class) from SIN to the US. The punter obtains a VERY low cost SIN stopover (if desired) for a very competitive fare to the US. Just a possibility?
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From PER to LAX it is far cheaper to fly SQ than QF. Air NZ is more competitive than QF! QF is the dearest with the worst in flight product out of the 3. Who ever said you get what you pay for! I know my choice!
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Just to back up my previous post,
PER - LAX Random last week in Jul
QF $ 3468
ANZ $ 2096
SQ $ 2340
It is even cheaper to fly via HKG with CX! $ 2341
Thats a big difference for QF!
PER - LAX Random last week in Jul
QF $ 3468
ANZ $ 2096
SQ $ 2340
It is even cheaper to fly via HKG with CX! $ 2341
Thats a big difference for QF!
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I can't wait to see this fight unfold.
Tiger are clearly going to be an alternative for the J* pilots and i suspect they will be offering a few incentives to coax people over. At the moment J* pilots are free agents and can leave when they want to. I'm tipping that a lengthy bond for new hires isn't far off with the Tiger arrival drawing closer.
Interestingly on another thread a discussion about increased salaries at J*.
Tiger are clearly going to be an alternative for the J* pilots and i suspect they will be offering a few incentives to coax people over. At the moment J* pilots are free agents and can leave when they want to. I'm tipping that a lengthy bond for new hires isn't far off with the Tiger arrival drawing closer.
Interestingly on another thread a discussion about increased salaries at J*.
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Mr Hat
I think the suggested improvement in T&C's are interesting; however as someone else far smarter than myself (probably about 90% of the population!) has pointed out I think it is MORE interesting the companies want the EBA's for 5 years.
From experience a hell of a lot can happen in 5 years.
Obviously the companies, being benevolent types, want to PROTECT the pilots T&C's from the imminent downturn that only they can see and which, by unscrupulous operators, could be used to lower T&C's.
Bless their little cotton socks; makes me a little teary, actually.
I think the suggested improvement in T&C's are interesting; however as someone else far smarter than myself (probably about 90% of the population!) has pointed out I think it is MORE interesting the companies want the EBA's for 5 years.
From experience a hell of a lot can happen in 5 years.
Obviously the companies, being benevolent types, want to PROTECT the pilots T&C's from the imminent downturn that only they can see and which, by unscrupulous operators, could be used to lower T&C's.
Bless their little cotton socks; makes me a little teary, actually.
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At the moment if you want to leave J* or VB and stay in Australia your options are a bit limited without retraining and going through the whole new type caper again. For the J* guys/gals this will change with the arrival of tiger.
Possibly has already been mentioned but does anyone have any inside info as to whether Tiger plan on using the Jetstar strategy and having pilots in multiple bases once they get up and running, ie no/few overnights or just having the one base in Mel?
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Brown Hornet? What does that make Kato? Lato??
There will be no layovers for Tiger pilots therefore...
Shame really because, for the neophyte airline pilot it is an intrinsic part of his sexual awakening
and for us old blokes, it's great way to have a few dozen beers with ya mates!!
Shame really because, for the neophyte airline pilot it is an intrinsic part of his sexual awakening
and for us old blokes, it's great way to have a few dozen beers with ya mates!!
