Pearl Aviation pilots - towards a new CA (Merged)
APMR,
Grey days are rostered on the Flight Inspection contract for Singapore operations.
As far as sticking to a roster, generally we do with regard to the day(ie Monday On,Tuesday Reserve, etc) but where you'll be and what you are doing is all up in the air.
On a deployment you'll change tasks as required due to any number of factors(Weather, nav aid serviceability, ASA staff availability, and the biggy, is the aircraft servicable.); deployments are usually rostered so that you'll have 6 days on(often with the 6th as Reserve/ this is more often than not used) with 1 day off then 6 On again.
Generally, the roster is more of an indication of where you'll be,what you need to achieve in a geographical area and maybe how you'll do it;I consider it a guide to what sort of clothing I'll need to take, eg shorts/tshirts or winter woolies and when I can expect to be home again.
With regard to your idea about different CA's for the different contracts, this can be done with base agreements as appendices to the CA. However, considering the difficulties in getting the company to negoyiate a CA, I reckon that it might be a bit difficult.
Grey days are rostered on the Flight Inspection contract for Singapore operations.
As far as sticking to a roster, generally we do with regard to the day(ie Monday On,Tuesday Reserve, etc) but where you'll be and what you are doing is all up in the air.
On a deployment you'll change tasks as required due to any number of factors(Weather, nav aid serviceability, ASA staff availability, and the biggy, is the aircraft servicable.); deployments are usually rostered so that you'll have 6 days on(often with the 6th as Reserve/ this is more often than not used) with 1 day off then 6 On again.
Generally, the roster is more of an indication of where you'll be,what you need to achieve in a geographical area and maybe how you'll do it;I consider it a guide to what sort of clothing I'll need to take, eg shorts/tshirts or winter woolies and when I can expect to be home again.
With regard to your idea about different CA's for the different contracts, this can be done with base agreements as appendices to the CA. However, considering the difficulties in getting the company to negoyiate a CA, I reckon that it might be a bit difficult.
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Australia
Posts: 68
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
olderairhead,
You are insisting that there are two "types" of day off: a "designated day off" and a "day off".
And, you are saying that you can only have "designated days off" at your home base, and only have "days off" at your non-home base.
If anybody reading this thread can show how those clauses say this, then I will donate to them all of my RDO payments for the 2007/08 financial year. The "clauses" are those quoted by olderairhead in his previous post. PM me your bank account details.
olderairhead,
Answer me this question: if you are on a "day off" away from your home base, what would it say on the roster against your name for that day? (e.g. "O", "R", etc).
You are insisting that there are two "types" of day off: a "designated day off" and a "day off".
And, you are saying that you can only have "designated days off" at your home base, and only have "days off" at your non-home base.
If anybody reading this thread can show how those clauses say this, then I will donate to them all of my RDO payments for the 2007/08 financial year. The "clauses" are those quoted by olderairhead in his previous post. PM me your bank account details.
olderairhead,
Answer me this question: if you are on a "day off" away from your home base, what would it say on the roster against your name for that day? (e.g. "O", "R", etc).
APMR you obviously did not read the definition nor anything else I have posted and tried to apply any logical thinking. I am wasting my time with you.
And good luck with your search for a job in the UK.
Just remember when you vote no doubt YES, the legacy you will be leaving behind for others.
And good luck with your search for a job in the UK.
Just remember when you vote no doubt YES, the legacy you will be leaving behind for others.
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Australia
Posts: 68
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
olderairhead,
I can assure you that I read, read, read and reread those clauses. In fact, most of that reading had occurred well before these exchanges with you. I have even had my wife read them in the hope she would come to see how you could have your interpretation (she failed).
Can anybody else see how OAH can have this understanding re the days off at non-home base? To answer that, you don't need to delve into the documents - you only need to read the clauses he reproduced in his earlier post (post #20).
APMR you obviously did not read the definition nor anything else I have posted and tried to apply any logical thinking. I am wasting my time with you.
Can anybody else see how OAH can have this understanding re the days off at non-home base? To answer that, you don't need to delve into the documents - you only need to read the clauses he reproduced in his earlier post (post #20).
APMR,
I happen to agree with the old bloke in regard to the payment of RDO's and designated days off.
As pilots, we're not Lawyers, but this one's relatively simple if you break it down and as requested I'll only refer initially to the clauses posted but I will need to refer to the document after my first points as I can't remember all the clauses. Also, the old bloke forgot to preface 2 of the clauses in post number 20 as being in the Schedule attactment, so I'll include these for clarity.
1. In regard to what it shows on you roster, yes, either when at home or away there'll be an "O" marked for the day.
2. Clause 3.18 defines a day off at home as"Designated Day Off"; you are entitled to 8 of these in a 28 day roster period. These are the days you get to see the wife/girlfriend/husband/boyfriend/friend with priveledges, etc. at you home base.
3. Schedule C, Clause 1.8.11 makes a statement about a day free of duty for rostering purposes;ie CAO requirements; think Flight Inspection deployments of greater than 1 week; we can not work continously for the 2 to 3 weeks we can be away; so we have to be rostered with an "O" on whatever day is necessary. It specificly states that these are not "Designated Days Off at Home Base" but days free of duty for rostering purposes.
4. Schedule C, Clause 1.9.3 States that "Designated Days Off" require mutual agreement to change. Hence, the RDO payment must be made as you are changing/giving up a day off at home(ie with your family/friends/pets/mates, etc) these are at the company's request, so they will pay you for this sacrifice/ impossition on you lifestyle.
Now, the question is when will the company pay when you for working on a day off.
In definitions you will find that the document has in clause 3.18 "Designated days off" and clause 3.41 "Rostered Duty Free Day"; so there are in fact 2 types of days were you can have "O" on the roster. One at home, the other away or conceiveably/possibly a day off at home if it is in addition to the 8 days out of 28 at home in the roster period( I don't know about you but more that 8 days off at home are very, very rare).
Schedule C 1.8.9 states when an RDO payment will be made; it states that only when a pilot works on a "Designated Day Off" and a pilot has agreed to work on that day will they be paid.
So, when you break it down like that, there are/can be, 2 types of defined "O" days on your roster. One that the company will pay you for if you agree to change it, and the other for which there is no mention for them either requiring them to ask you to change the day or making a payment to you for having the change made.
Now, you may say that seeing as it isn't stated in the document that the company must ask you to work on a day rostered free of duty, that it's implied that they will ask you to work on that day, or that as you're working an "O" day(day rostered free of duty) whilst away from home base that they'll pay you. Well, all I can say to that is, if it isn't written down, then it isn't enforcable. Hence, Olderairhead's comments regarding the payment of RDO's and my agreement with them.
As background, there is an ongoing grievance between the company and one of the Flight Inspection pilots(that MB is well aware off as he was here when it started) over the payment of an RDO incurred because of a change it operational requirements on a deployment.
If I've been able to clarify that for you great, PM me and I'll send you my bank account details(these RDO payments will be tax free to me I assume
); if not then we'll agree to disagree.
I happen to agree with the old bloke in regard to the payment of RDO's and designated days off.
As pilots, we're not Lawyers, but this one's relatively simple if you break it down and as requested I'll only refer initially to the clauses posted but I will need to refer to the document after my first points as I can't remember all the clauses. Also, the old bloke forgot to preface 2 of the clauses in post number 20 as being in the Schedule attactment, so I'll include these for clarity.
1. In regard to what it shows on you roster, yes, either when at home or away there'll be an "O" marked for the day.
2. Clause 3.18 defines a day off at home as"Designated Day Off"; you are entitled to 8 of these in a 28 day roster period. These are the days you get to see the wife/girlfriend/husband/boyfriend/friend with priveledges, etc. at you home base.
3. Schedule C, Clause 1.8.11 makes a statement about a day free of duty for rostering purposes;ie CAO requirements; think Flight Inspection deployments of greater than 1 week; we can not work continously for the 2 to 3 weeks we can be away; so we have to be rostered with an "O" on whatever day is necessary. It specificly states that these are not "Designated Days Off at Home Base" but days free of duty for rostering purposes.
4. Schedule C, Clause 1.9.3 States that "Designated Days Off" require mutual agreement to change. Hence, the RDO payment must be made as you are changing/giving up a day off at home(ie with your family/friends/pets/mates, etc) these are at the company's request, so they will pay you for this sacrifice/ impossition on you lifestyle.
Now, the question is when will the company pay when you for working on a day off.
In definitions you will find that the document has in clause 3.18 "Designated days off" and clause 3.41 "Rostered Duty Free Day"; so there are in fact 2 types of days were you can have "O" on the roster. One at home, the other away or conceiveably/possibly a day off at home if it is in addition to the 8 days out of 28 at home in the roster period( I don't know about you but more that 8 days off at home are very, very rare).
Schedule C 1.8.9 states when an RDO payment will be made; it states that only when a pilot works on a "Designated Day Off" and a pilot has agreed to work on that day will they be paid.
So, when you break it down like that, there are/can be, 2 types of defined "O" days on your roster. One that the company will pay you for if you agree to change it, and the other for which there is no mention for them either requiring them to ask you to change the day or making a payment to you for having the change made.
Now, you may say that seeing as it isn't stated in the document that the company must ask you to work on a day rostered free of duty, that it's implied that they will ask you to work on that day, or that as you're working an "O" day(day rostered free of duty) whilst away from home base that they'll pay you. Well, all I can say to that is, if it isn't written down, then it isn't enforcable. Hence, Olderairhead's comments regarding the payment of RDO's and my agreement with them.
As background, there is an ongoing grievance between the company and one of the Flight Inspection pilots(that MB is well aware off as he was here when it started) over the payment of an RDO incurred because of a change it operational requirements on a deployment.
If I've been able to clarify that for you great, PM me and I'll send you my bank account details(these RDO payments will be tax free to me I assume
); if not then we'll agree to disagree.
Last edited by Seaeagle109; 21st Jun 2007 at 06:37. Reason: Spelling, again
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Oz
Posts: 67
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
olderairhead has it in a nutshell. Obviously seaeagle109 has a brain as well, cos he obviously can understand it. And I can too! 
I don't see how you or your missus cannot see that.
So can I have a share of them RDO's as well?
p.s. You don't perchance reside in Gove do you????
I don't see how you or your missus cannot see that.
So can I have a share of them RDO's as well?
p.s. You don't perchance reside in Gove do you????
AMPR,
Was that wrong about the RDO stuff, or was that wrong about Ringin's guess?
Ringin,
Hands off what are potentially my tax free RDO's, if AMPR now gets it.
Was that wrong about the RDO stuff, or was that wrong about Ringin's guess?
Ringin,
Hands off what are potentially my tax free RDO's, if AMPR now gets it.
Last edited by Seaeagle109; 21st Jun 2007 at 06:18. Reason: Additional question to AMPR added
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Australia
Posts: 68
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Seaeagle109,
Good try, and I thank you for making the attempt. The nature of "legal argument" over a written medium means that unfortunately, you have to spell things out in very wordy fashion.
What is throwing you guys is the schedule C 1.8.11 clause which contains the phrases "such a day shall be considered a day free of duty for rostering purposes but not a designated day off at home base".
It appears that all of your understanding is based on this clause.
But, this clause does not apply in the case of days off (irrespective of which breed of day off). Here is the reason why. I will quote the entire clause. Note the words "on any rostered duty day". I will bold those words.
Schedule C 1.8.11:
If a pilot on a tour away from home base is not required for duty on any rostered duty day, such a day shall be considered a day free of duty for rostering purposes but not a designated day off at home base.
So this clause only applies to days where you are rostered for duty (including "R" days). If you have an "O" for the day in question, this clause does not apply.
As I said in an earlier post, what this clause is saying, in effect, is that if on a day other than "O", if you don't do any duty then the day may be considered a "day off" for the purposes of flight and duty time limits and subsequent rostering, but if you do do some duty, you can't claim the RDO payment! And this is perfectly logical.
So, that only leaves definition 3.18 and clause 1.9.3 that you can mount your case on.
Have another look. Got to go again, will be back in another hour or two.
Good try, and I thank you for making the attempt. The nature of "legal argument" over a written medium means that unfortunately, you have to spell things out in very wordy fashion.
What is throwing you guys is the schedule C 1.8.11 clause which contains the phrases "such a day shall be considered a day free of duty for rostering purposes but not a designated day off at home base".
It appears that all of your understanding is based on this clause.
But, this clause does not apply in the case of days off (irrespective of which breed of day off). Here is the reason why. I will quote the entire clause. Note the words "on any rostered duty day". I will bold those words.
Schedule C 1.8.11:
If a pilot on a tour away from home base is not required for duty on any rostered duty day, such a day shall be considered a day free of duty for rostering purposes but not a designated day off at home base.
So this clause only applies to days where you are rostered for duty (including "R" days). If you have an "O" for the day in question, this clause does not apply.
As I said in an earlier post, what this clause is saying, in effect, is that if on a day other than "O", if you don't do any duty then the day may be considered a "day off" for the purposes of flight and duty time limits and subsequent rostering, but if you do do some duty, you can't claim the RDO payment! And this is perfectly logical.
So, that only leaves definition 3.18 and clause 1.9.3 that you can mount your case on.
Have another look. Got to go again, will be back in another hour or two.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Oz
Posts: 67
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
APMR I just read your latest diatribe and am now convinced you are a knob!
If anyone continues to reply to your posts they, in my opinion, would come under the same banner as you.
Please save us all the trouble and bugger off.
You're a right tosser.
If anyone continues to reply to your posts they, in my opinion, would come under the same banner as you.
Please save us all the trouble and bugger off.
You're a right tosser.
APMR,
I'll try one more time.
Your quote in your last post. "As I said in an earlier post, what this clause is saying, in effect, is that if on a day other than "O", if you don't do any duty then the day may be considered a "day off" for the purposes of flight and duty time limits and subsequent rostering, but if you do do some duty, you can't claim the RDO payment! And this is perfectly logical."
Mate, if you don't do any duty on an "R" day then of course the affect is that this can be treated for Flight and Duty times as though it is in effect an "O" day. The company's flight and duty program simply doesn't record anything. However,it's obviously not rostered( originally, ie when the roster is published) as an "O" day.
No one in any of the posts has said that you would be able to claim for an RDO by not doing any duty on an "R" day.
The entire argument has been whether the company could change without consultation or payment for a "O" whilst away from home base.
If you don't believe me as to the intent and effect of this, then read the latest company document from the JW and MB regarding the clarification and intent,emailed today. It says quite clearly that a non Designated day off (ie one not at home) can be changed without your agreement( this apparently will be a last resort, but it still means they can say work and you can’t say no) and that they won't pay for that, they'll simply replace the day( however the clause in the CA has some wrong references to that if you read Schedule C., there is no clause 1.1.8).
So, to summarise you get:
2 definitions of a day off.
8 days off at home and changes to these days cost the company and changes can only be done with your agreement.
Days away from home, even if rostered as an “O” day can be changed with no agreement from you and there’s no payment for them, only a replacement day.
Days rostered as “R”, that you don’t work on, will be effectively an off day for Flight and Duty times as nothing is recorded in the F&D time program as is the case now.
Mate, I can’t make it any simpler than that.
Now, if this doesn’t help, all I can assume is one of four things
1/ I haven’t explained this well enough (this will be my last attempt at an explanation)
2/ You can’t grasp this concept (hopefully not true)
3/ You have a belief and are sticking to it right or wrong (a trait of some pilots, but not good, as it can lead to the crash comics).
4/ You’re just trying to wind us up (hopefully not as it’s unhelpful in any debate) but I guess you've succeded.
I prefer to think it’s option 1.
Ringin,
I was typing my post whilst you posted, so I hope that you won't think badly of me.
I'll try one more time.
Your quote in your last post. "As I said in an earlier post, what this clause is saying, in effect, is that if on a day other than "O", if you don't do any duty then the day may be considered a "day off" for the purposes of flight and duty time limits and subsequent rostering, but if you do do some duty, you can't claim the RDO payment! And this is perfectly logical."
Mate, if you don't do any duty on an "R" day then of course the affect is that this can be treated for Flight and Duty times as though it is in effect an "O" day. The company's flight and duty program simply doesn't record anything. However,it's obviously not rostered( originally, ie when the roster is published) as an "O" day.
No one in any of the posts has said that you would be able to claim for an RDO by not doing any duty on an "R" day.
The entire argument has been whether the company could change without consultation or payment for a "O" whilst away from home base.
If you don't believe me as to the intent and effect of this, then read the latest company document from the JW and MB regarding the clarification and intent,emailed today. It says quite clearly that a non Designated day off (ie one not at home) can be changed without your agreement( this apparently will be a last resort, but it still means they can say work and you can’t say no) and that they won't pay for that, they'll simply replace the day( however the clause in the CA has some wrong references to that if you read Schedule C., there is no clause 1.1.8).
So, to summarise you get:
2 definitions of a day off.
8 days off at home and changes to these days cost the company and changes can only be done with your agreement.
Days away from home, even if rostered as an “O” day can be changed with no agreement from you and there’s no payment for them, only a replacement day.
Days rostered as “R”, that you don’t work on, will be effectively an off day for Flight and Duty times as nothing is recorded in the F&D time program as is the case now.
Mate, I can’t make it any simpler than that.
Now, if this doesn’t help, all I can assume is one of four things
1/ I haven’t explained this well enough (this will be my last attempt at an explanation)
2/ You can’t grasp this concept (hopefully not true)
3/ You have a belief and are sticking to it right or wrong (a trait of some pilots, but not good, as it can lead to the crash comics).
4/ You’re just trying to wind us up (hopefully not as it’s unhelpful in any debate) but I guess you've succeded.
I prefer to think it’s option 1.
Ringin,
I was typing my post whilst you posted, so I hope that you won't think badly of me.
Last edited by Seaeagle109; 21st Jun 2007 at 10:06.
Boy am I slow!!!!
APMR = Another Pearl Management Recruit
That explains it all!
Obviously trying to get some brownie points to be the next CP!!!!
APMR = Another Pearl Management Recruit
That explains it all!
Obviously trying to get some brownie points to be the next CP!!!!
Last edited by olderairhead; 21st Jun 2007 at 11:18. Reason: wrong smilies
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Coming to a airport near you
Posts: 16
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Dear Mr AMPR,
I am a Pearl pilot of many years. I have read your response to the company offer. Perhaps it is time to consider the many young families that live around Australia that will be efected by this document. You appear to be in agreement with the company on this agreement. But I think you should understand that the company is very diverse and your experience is localised.
I will vote NO tomorrow. I know how the company is making a profit. I also know we should be reconpenced in line with our experiece. Mr AMPR I know that as a pilot on my contract I am making a considerable gain and feel the company offer is considerably short of our worth.
jindavik
I am a Pearl pilot of many years. I have read your response to the company offer. Perhaps it is time to consider the many young families that live around Australia that will be efected by this document. You appear to be in agreement with the company on this agreement. But I think you should understand that the company is very diverse and your experience is localised.
I will vote NO tomorrow. I know how the company is making a profit. I also know we should be reconpenced in line with our experiece. Mr AMPR I know that as a pilot on my contract I am making a considerable gain and feel the company offer is considerably short of our worth.
jindavik
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Australia
Posts: 68
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I have spoken with both MB and JW tonight.
I have learned that there is more to the "days off" issue than appears in the CA documents. My arguments on this issue have been based on what it says in the various clauses, but as those clauses don't reveal the true and complete story, my arguments have been, with respect to the true nature of the days off, WRONG.
Knowing what I now know, and reading back over the previous posts, it appears that the explanations given by olderairhead and Seaeagle109 do in fact, describe quite accurately the true nature of the days off. The difficulty I was having, of course, was that what those gentlemen were saying did not match what was written in the various clauses.
I sincerely apologise for wasting your time and I regret having spent so much of my time on this. If only I had known the true story from the outset!
Those earlier posts, however, don't go near explaining the whole story of the days off, so I will now have to do that here.
Firstly though, to those speculating on my identity, yes, I do reside at Gove. My first name starts with "T", and if anybody would like to ring me to discuss anything re the proposed CA, please feel free.
Please can we not spend any time debating the misconceptions that have led up to this point (and no, you cannot have my RDO payments because it is not possible to show the things that I asked).
There are indeed two types of "day off". One is the "designated day off" and the other is the "rostered duty free day".
For simplicity, from here on, I will refer to the "designated day off" as the "high powered" day off, and the "rostered duty free day" as the "low powered" day off.
I use the term "high powered" because, you have the option of not working on one if asked, but if you choose to, may claim the RDO payment.
The "low powered" is only for the purposes of satisfying flight and duty time limits and if called upon to work on this day, must do so and cannot claim the RDO payment.
The company must roster 8 high powered days per 28 day roster cycle. Any additional days off will be rostered as low powered. This should make perfect sense. Most other members of the community get 8 days off in 28, so it would not be fair for any additional days in the 28 to be the full monty high powered.
So, do only the low powered days off apply when you are away from your home base? YES, but the definition of "home base" is not what you would think (and is not what is defined in the CA document).
The true definition of "home base" is: that base at which you are permanently based, have been temporarily transferred to, or are conducting leave relief at. This defies common sense, I know, but is straight from the horses mouth.
What this means, for non-Brisbane pilots, is that you will, in effect, always be at your "home base"! As soon as you make a temporary transfer, or go on leave relief, your "home base" moves with you.
For example, consider a Metro pilot whose permanent base is Darwin. If he moves down to Alice Springs on a temporary transfer (or leave relief), his home base becomes Alice Springs for the duration of his stay there.
So, for the non-Brisbane pilots, you will always be at your home base, so it is highly unlikely that you will find yourself rostered onto one of the low powered days off. In unusual circumstances you may get them, but you will still have 8 of the full montys in that particular 28 day period.
Here is the most likely scenario where you would be rostered onto a low powered day off:
Your roster has 8 full powered days off, regularly spaced throughout the 28 days. At some point in the cycle, due to a lot of extra (unanticipated) flying, you realise that, due to cumulative flight/duty time limits, you can't fly tomorrow and must take the day off. You advise ops and they change the roster, but because you already have 8 of the high powered days off rostered, they roster your tomorrow to be one of the low powered days off. Note that, in this scenario, you will end up having had 9 days off in the 28.
It is only the Brisbane pilots that can be away from their "home base". This is because a trip overseas for work in Singapore is considered neither a temporary transfer, nor leave relief. So any days off over there will be the low powered. They still have to have 8 full powered days off, of course, and to take one, need to be physically in Brisbane.
Because all PAA pilots can be rostered to either flavour of day off, the management is considering different roster symbols for the two types. For example, an "O" (big O) for the high powered, and a "o" (little O) for the low powered.
Does anybody think they may be losing something with respect to days off should the proposed CA get up?
For the following reasons, I am of the opinion that the proposed terms and conditions re days off are better than those of the existing agreement:
1. The existing agreement entitles us to 8 "duty free days" per 28 day roster cycle. (Clause 10.1.3). Note that those are only "duty free days" and not the more powerful type of day off we get 8 of under the proposed agreement.
2. "Designated days off" for pilots conducting leave relief under the existing agreement are not recognised! (definition 3.14). This could be taken to mean that these pilots are not entitled to claim RDO payments under the current agreement.
3. Under the proposed agreement, you can get more than 8 days off in 28 (refer above scenario). Under the existing agreement, the company is not obliged to give more than 8, and, some of those 8 could have been reserve days that you weren't activated on, or night shift days (that you weren't called on).
I have learned that there is more to the "days off" issue than appears in the CA documents. My arguments on this issue have been based on what it says in the various clauses, but as those clauses don't reveal the true and complete story, my arguments have been, with respect to the true nature of the days off, WRONG.
Knowing what I now know, and reading back over the previous posts, it appears that the explanations given by olderairhead and Seaeagle109 do in fact, describe quite accurately the true nature of the days off. The difficulty I was having, of course, was that what those gentlemen were saying did not match what was written in the various clauses.
I sincerely apologise for wasting your time and I regret having spent so much of my time on this. If only I had known the true story from the outset!
Those earlier posts, however, don't go near explaining the whole story of the days off, so I will now have to do that here.
Firstly though, to those speculating on my identity, yes, I do reside at Gove. My first name starts with "T", and if anybody would like to ring me to discuss anything re the proposed CA, please feel free.
Please can we not spend any time debating the misconceptions that have led up to this point (and no, you cannot have my RDO payments because it is not possible to show the things that I asked).
There are indeed two types of "day off". One is the "designated day off" and the other is the "rostered duty free day".
For simplicity, from here on, I will refer to the "designated day off" as the "high powered" day off, and the "rostered duty free day" as the "low powered" day off.
I use the term "high powered" because, you have the option of not working on one if asked, but if you choose to, may claim the RDO payment.
The "low powered" is only for the purposes of satisfying flight and duty time limits and if called upon to work on this day, must do so and cannot claim the RDO payment.
The company must roster 8 high powered days per 28 day roster cycle. Any additional days off will be rostered as low powered. This should make perfect sense. Most other members of the community get 8 days off in 28, so it would not be fair for any additional days in the 28 to be the full monty high powered.
So, do only the low powered days off apply when you are away from your home base? YES, but the definition of "home base" is not what you would think (and is not what is defined in the CA document).
The true definition of "home base" is: that base at which you are permanently based, have been temporarily transferred to, or are conducting leave relief at. This defies common sense, I know, but is straight from the horses mouth.
What this means, for non-Brisbane pilots, is that you will, in effect, always be at your "home base"! As soon as you make a temporary transfer, or go on leave relief, your "home base" moves with you.
For example, consider a Metro pilot whose permanent base is Darwin. If he moves down to Alice Springs on a temporary transfer (or leave relief), his home base becomes Alice Springs for the duration of his stay there.
So, for the non-Brisbane pilots, you will always be at your home base, so it is highly unlikely that you will find yourself rostered onto one of the low powered days off. In unusual circumstances you may get them, but you will still have 8 of the full montys in that particular 28 day period.
Here is the most likely scenario where you would be rostered onto a low powered day off:
Your roster has 8 full powered days off, regularly spaced throughout the 28 days. At some point in the cycle, due to a lot of extra (unanticipated) flying, you realise that, due to cumulative flight/duty time limits, you can't fly tomorrow and must take the day off. You advise ops and they change the roster, but because you already have 8 of the high powered days off rostered, they roster your tomorrow to be one of the low powered days off. Note that, in this scenario, you will end up having had 9 days off in the 28.
It is only the Brisbane pilots that can be away from their "home base". This is because a trip overseas for work in Singapore is considered neither a temporary transfer, nor leave relief. So any days off over there will be the low powered. They still have to have 8 full powered days off, of course, and to take one, need to be physically in Brisbane.
Because all PAA pilots can be rostered to either flavour of day off, the management is considering different roster symbols for the two types. For example, an "O" (big O) for the high powered, and a "o" (little O) for the low powered.
Does anybody think they may be losing something with respect to days off should the proposed CA get up?
For the following reasons, I am of the opinion that the proposed terms and conditions re days off are better than those of the existing agreement:
1. The existing agreement entitles us to 8 "duty free days" per 28 day roster cycle. (Clause 10.1.3). Note that those are only "duty free days" and not the more powerful type of day off we get 8 of under the proposed agreement.
2. "Designated days off" for pilots conducting leave relief under the existing agreement are not recognised! (definition 3.14). This could be taken to mean that these pilots are not entitled to claim RDO payments under the current agreement.
3. Under the proposed agreement, you can get more than 8 days off in 28 (refer above scenario). Under the existing agreement, the company is not obliged to give more than 8, and, some of those 8 could have been reserve days that you weren't activated on, or night shift days (that you weren't called on).
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Australia
Posts: 68
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Seaeagle109 said:
He is referring to the "low powered" days off. You will still have 8 of the "high powered" days off per 28 day roster cycle. For an explanation and discussion of "low" and "high powered" days off, please refer to my previous post.
As I said in that post, I believe we will be better off with respect to days off under the new agreement than we are under the current agreement. The "low powered" days off are a bonus - if you get one, then you will have had 9 days off in the 28 days (8 high powered + 1 low).
Some more comments regarding that document (titled "PAA EXPLANATION"):
It clarifies a few things. With those clarifications, it can be seen that there are a couple more significant improvements for the pilots.
The grey day clarification: a win for the NTAMS pilots. This undertaking makes it clear that following a night shift without being called, the pilots will be permitted 10 hours rest period before having to switch their phone back on.
Without this undertaking, an NTAMS pilot has no right to expect that he can't be called for a duty as early as 0600 on the morning following a night shift where he wasn't called - CAO48, the Standard Industry Exemption and the current CA all permit the pilot to be called for duty in these circumstances.
I believe a "gentlemen's agreement" has been in place which has prohibited the pilots being called for duty in this scenario, but for those that like things to be official, there is now this guarantee.
The meal allowance clarification: another win. JW makes the statement "the company guarantees during the life of this agreement no allowance will decrease from the amount it was at the time of operation of this agreement."
So, linking the meal allowances to the ATO RBA cannot result in those allowances being less than they presently are.
The "weekend off" clarification: JW has given this undertaking: "The company's intended position is to provide each pilot with at least one complete weekend off every 28 day period". So now, with that, this situation is definitely improved over the rostering situation that exists under the current agreement.
I could not see any clarifications that translated into a loss for the pilots.
If you don't believe me as to the intent and effect of this, then read the latest company document from the JW and MB regarding the clarification and intent,emailed today. It says quite clearly that a non Designated day off (ie one not at home) can be changed without your agreement ...
As I said in that post, I believe we will be better off with respect to days off under the new agreement than we are under the current agreement. The "low powered" days off are a bonus - if you get one, then you will have had 9 days off in the 28 days (8 high powered + 1 low).
Some more comments regarding that document (titled "PAA EXPLANATION"):
It clarifies a few things. With those clarifications, it can be seen that there are a couple more significant improvements for the pilots.
The grey day clarification: a win for the NTAMS pilots. This undertaking makes it clear that following a night shift without being called, the pilots will be permitted 10 hours rest period before having to switch their phone back on.
Without this undertaking, an NTAMS pilot has no right to expect that he can't be called for a duty as early as 0600 on the morning following a night shift where he wasn't called - CAO48, the Standard Industry Exemption and the current CA all permit the pilot to be called for duty in these circumstances.
I believe a "gentlemen's agreement" has been in place which has prohibited the pilots being called for duty in this scenario, but for those that like things to be official, there is now this guarantee.
The meal allowance clarification: another win. JW makes the statement "the company guarantees during the life of this agreement no allowance will decrease from the amount it was at the time of operation of this agreement."
So, linking the meal allowances to the ATO RBA cannot result in those allowances being less than they presently are.
The "weekend off" clarification: JW has given this undertaking: "The company's intended position is to provide each pilot with at least one complete weekend off every 28 day period". So now, with that, this situation is definitely improved over the rostering situation that exists under the current agreement.
I could not see any clarifications that translated into a loss for the pilots.
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: home
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
And the winner is......
APMR,
I think it's time for you to announce the winner of your RDO payments. Hope your wife can understand you working on your days off for nothing.
Sounds like a toss up between Seaeagle and Oldairhead. Party time in Brisvagas!!!
I think it's time for you to announce the winner of your RDO payments. Hope your wife can understand you working on your days off for nothing.
Sounds like a toss up between Seaeagle and Oldairhead. Party time in Brisvagas!!!
APMR,
Good to know you now understand what we were saying; apology accepted re the time involved.
As a suggestion, it might have been easier to call on the pilot negotiators or AFAP for a quick explanation, this will enable you to get both points of view; however, if you only choose to speak to JW or MB, then that's your call.
With regard to the clarifications, you say you can't see a loss for the pilots, I can.
With regard to the days off, you concentrate on non-Brisbane pilots and the fact that they won't be affected. What about the Brisbane pilots, don't we count? I'll explain my point of view with regards to the days off away from home base(to use your words, "low powered days off"). By any account you must now see that these can be changed without consultation, this you admit in you latest post. So, this is surely a loss of conditions. Why is this loss important to the Brisbane pilots? Well, firstly let my acknowledge that, yes, these are additional to our 8 days off at home base(your "high powered days off"). I'll refer you back to one of my previous posts with regard to the amount of time we spend away from home. The days off being fixed whilst we are away from home are important to us for several reasons, we are often able to bring back some normalcy to our lives with these days. We are usually changing hotels on a nightly basis, but in some locations(eg,Perth, Sydney, Singapore, Vietnam) we are based in the same hotel for several nights(sometimes up to 2 weeks). So for example, at these locations it is possible the crews partners to occassionly travel to these locations and see the crew and spend these days with the crew;I understand why the guys want this to happen, but why these lovely Ladies do this, I don't know, I would have thought that they wanted these characters out of their house, I certainly don't need to see them more than I absolutely have too; therefore, some marital normalcy. These days off whilst on deployment also allow us the plan for some other things than give us a better lifestyle; these include seeing family and friends(only 2 of the crew are Brisbane boys but they still have F&F elsewhere), doing something at a particular location(Sightseeing/ museums/ fill in your whatever) and often that most mundane of tasks, doing the laundry( changing hotels nightly makes these simple tasks difficult). Yes, I acknowledge that we're there to work not satisfy any lifestyle ambitions, but we're human, we have them. If we have certainty for these days it just makes the constant travelling a bit easier.
The grey day issue, again you don't consider the implications on the Brisbane pilots, please refer to my earlier post re Singapore.
The allowances and weekend off. Well, first a bit of background, the reason that seemly so many things are covered by clauses, etc is that the management changes,pilots change, people have different interpretations of what things mean(just think of the time and energy debating the RDO issue between us), so problems occur that need specific clauses to avoid misunderstandings and conflict and state who is entitled to what,both the company and pilots.
With all respect to both JW and MB and their intentions, a statement of intent is a statement that is not included in the CA, yes it's nice to know and it makes us feel good but time will bring changes, the intent will be lost or not acknowledged by those who come later;this has many precedents in the company. As I said in a previous post, if it isn't written down, it isn't enforcable.
I understand that it's often difficult to see these things as you may not have experienced them in your current role but again, talk to the pilot reps, they can explain the how's and why's from a pilot's point of view, not just the company's. Please, consider these things, weigh up the offer not just from your own current situation but from an over all perspective and then vote the way you want.
P.S.
I still reckon those RDO payments of yours are now mine
Good to know you now understand what we were saying; apology accepted re the time involved.
As a suggestion, it might have been easier to call on the pilot negotiators or AFAP for a quick explanation, this will enable you to get both points of view; however, if you only choose to speak to JW or MB, then that's your call.
With regard to the clarifications, you say you can't see a loss for the pilots, I can.
With regard to the days off, you concentrate on non-Brisbane pilots and the fact that they won't be affected. What about the Brisbane pilots, don't we count? I'll explain my point of view with regards to the days off away from home base(to use your words, "low powered days off"). By any account you must now see that these can be changed without consultation, this you admit in you latest post. So, this is surely a loss of conditions. Why is this loss important to the Brisbane pilots? Well, firstly let my acknowledge that, yes, these are additional to our 8 days off at home base(your "high powered days off"). I'll refer you back to one of my previous posts with regard to the amount of time we spend away from home. The days off being fixed whilst we are away from home are important to us for several reasons, we are often able to bring back some normalcy to our lives with these days. We are usually changing hotels on a nightly basis, but in some locations(eg,Perth, Sydney, Singapore, Vietnam) we are based in the same hotel for several nights(sometimes up to 2 weeks). So for example, at these locations it is possible the crews partners to occassionly travel to these locations and see the crew and spend these days with the crew;I understand why the guys want this to happen, but why these lovely Ladies do this, I don't know, I would have thought that they wanted these characters out of their house, I certainly don't need to see them more than I absolutely have too
; therefore, some marital normalcy. These days off whilst on deployment also allow us the plan for some other things than give us a better lifestyle; these include seeing family and friends(only 2 of the crew are Brisbane boys but they still have F&F elsewhere), doing something at a particular location(Sightseeing/ museums/ fill in your whatever) and often that most mundane of tasks, doing the laundry( changing hotels nightly makes these simple tasks difficult). Yes, I acknowledge that we're there to work not satisfy any lifestyle ambitions, but we're human, we have them. If we have certainty for these days it just makes the constant travelling a bit easier.The grey day issue, again you don't consider the implications on the Brisbane pilots, please refer to my earlier post re Singapore.
The allowances and weekend off. Well, first a bit of background, the reason that seemly so many things are covered by clauses, etc is that the management changes,pilots change, people have different interpretations of what things mean(just think of the time and energy debating the RDO issue between us), so problems occur that need specific clauses to avoid misunderstandings and conflict and state who is entitled to what,both the company and pilots.
With all respect to both JW and MB and their intentions, a statement of intent is a statement that is not included in the CA, yes it's nice to know and it makes us feel good but time will bring changes, the intent will be lost or not acknowledged by those who come later;this has many precedents in the company. As I said in a previous post, if it isn't written down, it isn't enforcable.
I understand that it's often difficult to see these things as you may not have experienced them in your current role but again, talk to the pilot reps, they can explain the how's and why's from a pilot's point of view, not just the company's. Please, consider these things, weigh up the offer not just from your own current situation but from an over all perspective and then vote the way you want.
P.S.
I still reckon those RDO payments of yours are now mine
Last edited by Seaeagle109; 22nd Jun 2007 at 00:28. Reason: Additional icons the clarify a comment as tongue in cheek
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Oz
Posts: 67
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Heard that possibly 41 are going to vote it down. All verbalised of course. My info is that the troops are not happy and a quick sum of "polled" (read discussions with) pilots comes up with the magic number.