SAPL Inquiry
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SAPL offers the most awesome experience to any pilot with very high standards and there are some great people there. Unfortunatly the parent company is a bit tight and money isn't that hot so most move on. But then again its been like that for a while and Customs must know about it and accept it. They could have a solid base of lifers there (old farts like me) that would ultimatly reduce training costs and keep the brain drain down, but for some reason they just keep on training em to leave.
Solid rosters, real callout allowances and overtime and getting rid of that ADL mentality and put the management of the operation where the action is will go a long way to improve the operation generally. Oh and git rid of those military gits.
So, is the pay for a 717 F/O the same for a BRM or DRW -8 F/O, (given the $10k living allowance for BRM staff)? Any more legs on the SAPL DRW superbase story?
These guys crack me up. I got the same phone calls the other week and thought exactly the same. Feel a little sorry for the guys that are left though.
Its qutie simple. Its was a great job with good crews.
Upper management were a bunch of half wits with all the best intentions..... being theirs of course and inept ability to NOT listen to their very own crews and offering half ass solutions to huge problems. Found out first hand when they renegged on agreements for the new AWA claiming "we never offered such things"... tools. But really couldn't care less but like I said, feel sorry for the guys who are left.
Curious........ isn't it.. Or maybe No... There are just better jobs out there now and it will be like this until the airlines stop recruiting, and even then they wont be able to house their crews. Of course nothing will be done about it until all the real estate agents in Broome have not place available 365 days a year (Which has been the last 12 months) and still nothing useful has been done because it costs to much....I wonder how much they loose each and every time a Dash cant fly because they have no crews?
Its like pounding your head against a brick wall... Easier to leave, save the concussion.
Its qutie simple. Its was a great job with good crews.
Upper management were a bunch of half wits with all the best intentions..... being theirs of course and inept ability to NOT listen to their very own crews and offering half ass solutions to huge problems. Found out first hand when they renegged on agreements for the new AWA claiming "we never offered such things"... tools. But really couldn't care less but like I said, feel sorry for the guys who are left.
Curious........ isn't it.. Or maybe No... There are just better jobs out there now and it will be like this until the airlines stop recruiting, and even then they wont be able to house their crews. Of course nothing will be done about it until all the real estate agents in Broome have not place available 365 days a year (Which has been the last 12 months) and still nothing useful has been done because it costs to much....I wonder how much they loose each and every time a Dash cant fly because they have no crews?
Its like pounding your head against a brick wall... Easier to leave, save the concussion.
Last edited by Bula; 16th Jun 2007 at 08:08.
Join Date: Oct 2006
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Yeah Blackdog I'll bite, and sorry pittsy for getting into it. I saw an article in the West about 2 weeks ago that blamed the majors and the odd minor for their staff drain. My question is what about the staff that leave for no other reason than they hate the middle managers? There have been a few Pittsy. Maybe even where you're at, even last week?
I spoke to a current employee on the phone today who was asked to do the survey with the highly paid smokescreen and their response was "no they already know whats wrong, they just can't accept they are clowns". Good luck to them and the company it's a good job and they do good things.
I spoke to a current employee on the phone today who was asked to do the survey with the highly paid smokescreen and their response was "no they already know whats wrong, they just can't accept they are clowns". Good luck to them and the company it's a good job and they do good things.
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Whiskey, thats very placid of you mate. Shes obviously made you into a good man finally. I know you want the consultants phone call. I've checked my phone 3 times already why won't they call?
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.........such workers were "ego-centric, grandiose, pathological liars with a lack of conscience, remorse and guilt........
Heard that a senior member of operations was told the other day that there are definitly 5 pilots in the near future to leave shortly....
their reply....... we think it will be a max of 3 total.........
Need anyone say more.......
their reply....... we think it will be a max of 3 total.........
Need anyone say more.......
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A way they could have saved money would have been to read mine and the other 70 exit reports that outlined the problem very specifically. I always got the feeling they just didn't really care what a mouthy ethnic had to say.
Son of Saddam probably just binned them as disposable opinions. Like their employees. You reap what you sow
Best of luck current crews, some of the best flying and crews I've worked with.
Son of Saddam probably just binned them as disposable opinions. Like their employees. You reap what you sow
Best of luck current crews, some of the best flying and crews I've worked with.
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I believe the consultant was asked the when/why and who questions.
The answers were:
he was asked about 6 weeks before he started the interviews, as there were concerns as to why staff left/and are still leaving/by the new head of SAPL _ DL.
Apparently the report will be furnished within the next couple of months - it should make interesting reading!!
A comment was made that management would rather pay to hear from a consultant what the staff feel, rather than listen to what the staff say themselves! Go figure!
I also think that some of the staff criticisms have actually manifested for the poor bloke and he's been able to see for himself why the angst!
The answers were:
he was asked about 6 weeks before he started the interviews, as there were concerns as to why staff left/and are still leaving/by the new head of SAPL _ DL.
Apparently the report will be furnished within the next couple of months - it should make interesting reading!!
A comment was made that management would rather pay to hear from a consultant what the staff feel, rather than listen to what the staff say themselves! Go figure!
I also think that some of the staff criticisms have actually manifested for the poor bloke and he's been able to see for himself why the angst!
The Office of Workplace Services (OWS) has widened its legal action against major transport operator National Jet Systems Pty Ltd (NJS), adding claims from another 30 pilots for a further $65,130 in underpayments, OWS Director Mr Nicholas Wilson said today.
The OWS investigation and court action against NJS now alleges that 33 employees have been underpaid, and two of these employees have had duress applied to them to sign AWAs.
“OWS is now taking action in respect of the entitlements of 33 NJS employees to recover a total of more than $70 000 in unpaid wages, and to seek penalties for these underpayments and the two cases of AWA duress,” Mr Wilson said.
The initial court application lodged by OWS on 27 May 2007 alleged the company underpaid three pilots by withholding CPI pay increases due under their pre reform Australian Workplace Agreements (AWAs). The underpayments totalled $5,377.31. The initial application also alleged that NJS applied duress to two of those pilots to sign AWAs. OWS seeks full recovery of the underpayments and penalties against the company for both the underpayments and the duress applied to the two employees.
The subsequent application lodged in the Federal Magistrates’ Court in Perth on Friday 15 June 2007, seeks full recovery of underpayments resulting from the employer’s failure to pay the additional 30 pilots a CPI salary increase to which, it is alleged, they were entitled under their existing AWAs. Further penalties are also sought for these underpayments. The OWS is not alleging that duress was applied to these 30 employees.
OWS’ decision to take legal action comes after extensive investigations and numerous opportunities given to NJS to rectify the alleged underpayments and a lack of co-operation from the company.
“All employers must be absolutely clear - OWS will not hesitate to prosecute an employer who refuses to cooperate and /or rectify breaches of workplace relations law,” he said. “Employers risk potentially significant penalties – up to $33 000 per breach of the Workplace Relations Act 1996.”
The Directions Hearing for OWS case against National Jet Systems remains set for 9.00am on 3 July 2007, in the Federal Magistrates’ Court in Perth.
National Jet Systems Pty Ltd is a major national transport operator employing over 800 people providing contracted airline charter, freight and passenger operations to large civil and government organisations in Australasia.
Any employee who considers that they may have been denied their entitlements is encouraged to contact the OWS via the OWS Help Line on 130 724 200 to lodge a claim or visit our website www.ows.gov.au .
“OWS, soon to be the Workplace Ombudsman, is committed to ensuring that the rights and obligations of workers and employers under workplace law are protected, understood and enforced fairly”, said Mr Wilson.
The OWS investigation and court action against NJS now alleges that 33 employees have been underpaid, and two of these employees have had duress applied to them to sign AWAs.
“OWS is now taking action in respect of the entitlements of 33 NJS employees to recover a total of more than $70 000 in unpaid wages, and to seek penalties for these underpayments and the two cases of AWA duress,” Mr Wilson said.
The initial court application lodged by OWS on 27 May 2007 alleged the company underpaid three pilots by withholding CPI pay increases due under their pre reform Australian Workplace Agreements (AWAs). The underpayments totalled $5,377.31. The initial application also alleged that NJS applied duress to two of those pilots to sign AWAs. OWS seeks full recovery of the underpayments and penalties against the company for both the underpayments and the duress applied to the two employees.
The subsequent application lodged in the Federal Magistrates’ Court in Perth on Friday 15 June 2007, seeks full recovery of underpayments resulting from the employer’s failure to pay the additional 30 pilots a CPI salary increase to which, it is alleged, they were entitled under their existing AWAs. Further penalties are also sought for these underpayments. The OWS is not alleging that duress was applied to these 30 employees.
OWS’ decision to take legal action comes after extensive investigations and numerous opportunities given to NJS to rectify the alleged underpayments and a lack of co-operation from the company.
“All employers must be absolutely clear - OWS will not hesitate to prosecute an employer who refuses to cooperate and /or rectify breaches of workplace relations law,” he said. “Employers risk potentially significant penalties – up to $33 000 per breach of the Workplace Relations Act 1996.”
The Directions Hearing for OWS case against National Jet Systems remains set for 9.00am on 3 July 2007, in the Federal Magistrates’ Court in Perth.
National Jet Systems Pty Ltd is a major national transport operator employing over 800 people providing contracted airline charter, freight and passenger operations to large civil and government organisations in Australasia.
Any employee who considers that they may have been denied their entitlements is encouraged to contact the OWS via the OWS Help Line on 130 724 200 to lodge a claim or visit our website www.ows.gov.au .
“OWS, soon to be the Workplace Ombudsman, is committed to ensuring that the rights and obligations of workers and employers under workplace law are protected, understood and enforced fairly”, said Mr Wilson.
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OWS
"The initial court application lodged by OWS on 27 May 2007 alleged the company underpaid three pilots by withholding CPI pay increases due under their pre reform Australian Workplace Agreements (AWAs). The underpayments totalled $5,377.31. The initial application also alleged that NJS applied duress to two of those pilots to sign AWAs. OWS seeks full recovery of the underpayments and penalties against the company for both the underpayments and the duress applied to the two employees."
With regard to the said NJS pilots. Were they actually NJS pilots or in the SAPL division?
With regard to the said NJS pilots. Were they actually NJS pilots or in the SAPL division?
NJS is not SAPL. SAPL is not a division of NJS. SAPL have had no serious problems with their AWA as far as I'm aware. SAPL have plenty of problems but they are not the same as those at NJS. Renurpp is in danger of taking the light off SAPL's own problems when he hijacks these threads to continue on about NJS.
Perhaps the fact that they share the same management means that what happens to one part of the group could happen in another, same philosophy applies.
Fair to report I would have thought?
Fair to report I would have thought?
Thankyou ICARUS, I agree and is exactly the reason I have posted on both the NJS and SAPL threads.
SAPL and NJS senior management are IDENTICAL.
The only difference is the day to day operational and training people, and I understand that SAPL win on both counts in that area.
So if you are considering a position in SAPL consider how the company treat ALL of their employees.
Also remember the engineers and admin staff work for both sections of the company and they are going through exactly what the NJS pilots are going through right now.
now Pitts tell me why prospective employees should not know what sort of people they will be working for??
SAPL and NJS senior management are IDENTICAL.
The only difference is the day to day operational and training people, and I understand that SAPL win on both counts in that area.
So if you are considering a position in SAPL consider how the company treat ALL of their employees.
Also remember the engineers and admin staff work for both sections of the company and they are going through exactly what the NJS pilots are going through right now.
now Pitts tell me why prospective employees should not know what sort of people they will be working for??
Pitts tell me why prospective employees should not know what sort of people they will be working for??
Edit: I'm very interested in what's happening in NJS, and I'm aware that it is an indicator of the senior management's attitude to the whole group. It just seems to dilute SAPL's own issues sometimes, and in my opinion would do better in its own thread (as it has had in the past.)
By using the SAPL threads to talk about problems specific to NJS,
The problems belongs to COBHAM Flight Sevices Australia.
The senior management, of all the COBHAM companies, started with the current tactics on pilots several years ago when "Future Bleakness" was touted. (that was the year when management spent all that money buying staff a set of Bino's for xmas, so we could see the light at the end of the tunnel. Lucky they were cheap cause they don't work. The light has pretty well gone out)
They have had a go at engineers, Jet Ex pilots, National Jet Regional Services Pilots and NJS Airline Services. Next Year the Cabin Crew will be taken on.
All new employees including Pilots and CC are employed by a new company. No mention of that by mangement. More than likely some underhanded trick by SAPL/NJSRS/NJSAS/JETEX/FUBILAN etc management. (note it is not only NJS manegement)
SAPL pilots are fairing slightly better at present ONLY because they can't get pilots and current pilots and observers are leaving.
IF that situation changes, an they do find a source of crews for SAPL then watch out. You will be next and it will work some thing like this.
Dash 8 F/O's will be required to sign a new AWA if the accept a command upgrade.
That new AWA will be of a B scale wage. Around 80% of the current salary.
All new employees will be required to sign a similat document.
Paying for training will become the standard, morale will drop, LIKE A BIG FÍNG ROCK.
Your AWA is a 5 year AWA. Watch out after 5 years because guess what. They willscrew you.
So again I say our problems are your problems.
Also remember that COBHAM management are attempting to employ people for SAPL through NJS, second them to SAPL for 3 years with the promise of a "jet" job at the completion of three years!!
So any new pilot to SAPL is potentially a new employee of NJSAS/NJSRS and should be entitled to know what a miserable company they are considering.
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As an ex employee and a window licker I am probably not too qualified to speak on this subject, but I can see both sides of the argument. I also stay in close contact with my mates. As to the 3 year jet job, I only know of 2 that got direct transfers. The others had to resign. The senior manager is the same bloke for both once the dame left and the black hand took over the whole shebang.
I don't know what NJS's problems are specifically but I do know that SAPL's are directly related to some milspec middle managers who somehow bamboozle the seniors. Either that or the seniors don't care, and if thats the case then both parties problems are directly related.
SAPL's problems relate to workplace conditions and managers attitude that they own you for life and think you are disposable.They pretend to listen then do the opposite while building empires that do nothing except micro manage badly. That and the high cost of living in certain cities. They are not directly related to dollars. I won't go into the other issues because this is not the forum and it's public.
My questions to the NJS mob would be, are your rosters good? Do managers treat you with respect and appreciate the work you do? Is your main issue dollars and a reduction of conditions?
Either way good luck to both mobs and I'm just glad I don't have to look at spreadsheets showing the relationship between chickens in china and flight hours.
I don't know what NJS's problems are specifically but I do know that SAPL's are directly related to some milspec middle managers who somehow bamboozle the seniors. Either that or the seniors don't care, and if thats the case then both parties problems are directly related.
SAPL's problems relate to workplace conditions and managers attitude that they own you for life and think you are disposable.They pretend to listen then do the opposite while building empires that do nothing except micro manage badly. That and the high cost of living in certain cities. They are not directly related to dollars. I won't go into the other issues because this is not the forum and it's public.
My questions to the NJS mob would be, are your rosters good? Do managers treat you with respect and appreciate the work you do? Is your main issue dollars and a reduction of conditions?
Either way good luck to both mobs and I'm just glad I don't have to look at spreadsheets showing the relationship between chickens in china and flight hours.