Jumpseat use
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Originally Posted by Big Sky Theory
Controlling these acft on a daily basis, I thought there wouldn't be a problem, provided appropriate ID was provided and that the Capt. was happy you were who you said you were.
In fact, would be useful to get some ATCO's and BoM people up for a ride.
I'll put my hand up and admit that maybe pilots are the source of the confused reasons for the refused request. Back before the ATSR's it was quite simple - CAR 227, see above, clear cut.
So, somewhere between checking the maintenance log, interpreting the CDL to see if we have a performance penalty, just about to do the initial cockpit checks and mindful of the countdown to pushback, a gate agent walks up and asks "Okay if a military ATCO sits in the jump, Captain?
****, aah, what was that new rule... crew, company, CASA, wasn't it.... wouldn't hurt.... man, it used to be clear cut....
CAR 227 still exists, but it is overridden by the ATSRs, which are not prescriptive -- each operator has to write its own Transport Security Program. Therefore different rules. Don't know what it is like at QF or VB, apparently my outfit does have a TSP, but no pilot has been provided with a copy, and there are no copies in the base bookshelves. Apparently it is on the company intranet, but even if a pilot has a valid login (about 5% of us) you have to be 'in the know' to actually go look for it. Classic human factors - one simple rule for all in easily found federal legislation, now devolved to the operator.
Sorry, love to help him, but you know... new security rules, company policy.... please apologise to him/her, thanks..... sh!t, three minutes to boarding; hey josh, if you are done with the FMS could you ask janet which seat it was that she wanted blocked off?
Originally Posted by smiling monkey
How is it that this guy gets to jump seat inflight?
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Qantas has interpreted the Aviation Transport Security Act and Regs in a way so as to forbid ANYONE on the flight-deck other than flight/cabin crew. That means our families are forbidden too. Any Captain ignoring the company rule will be sacked.
As to WHY they have interpreted the stuff this way is highly debatable. In the interests of real security? Hardly. Or, to get one up on those scum pilots? Frankly - more likely.
I'll say it again - the pilots will be sacked if you are found on the flight-deck anytime in flight. And it'll probably be the cabin-crew who dob you in, this being Qantas. So don't bother asking. Simple. It ain't gonna happen.
Qantas - The Spirit of Australia. Australia - The Cowardly Country.
As to WHY they have interpreted the stuff this way is highly debatable. In the interests of real security? Hardly. Or, to get one up on those scum pilots? Frankly - more likely.
I'll say it again - the pilots will be sacked if you are found on the flight-deck anytime in flight. And it'll probably be the cabin-crew who dob you in, this being Qantas. So don't bother asking. Simple. It ain't gonna happen.
Qantas - The Spirit of Australia. Australia - The Cowardly Country.
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As I have mentioned before - I had Jennifer Hawkins on board the other month and would have loved to offer her the jump seat - but QF requires that she be an employee and holds an ASIC.
Bad luck for me I guess.....
Rod & Edna - you are wrong, they don't have to be flight/cabin crew, just as above
Bad luck for me I guess.....
Rod & Edna - you are wrong, they don't have to be flight/cabin crew, just as above
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Oh, my, Condition Lever..... I am so sorry..... at 1.30am I left out the word "employees" and you want to quibble the point. Well gee, mate, I do apologise.....
Send me to the back of the class like an errant child.
Mate - do not be so obnoxious and simply state "you are wrong". Mate - I (like you?) have to deal with this crap on a daily basis - I am well aware of what is required. And frankly I'm just wasting my time and bandwidth by debating anything with you, but for the "benefit" of all:
yes, you are right
, employees ARE permitted to jumpseat, but they have to remain there for the entire time. UNLESS... they need to take a toilet break. Then they ARE permitted to go into the cabin to the toilet, but ARE TO RETURN IMMEDIATELY. THEY ARE NOT TO LINGER CHATTING!! Well there's a real security risk - lingering and chatting to the cabin crew having been sitting on the jumpseat! (I will never forget: about 3 years ago when I was an F/O, we had two jumpseat riders (check-in staff) between PER and SYD. They both went out "for a toilet break". After about 5 minutes the Captain was getting all agitated about where they were. He rang the cabin. "Oh, they're out here, talking to us". Capt's reply: "Well, send them back right away, it's a security risk"............. 
Yup, that's what we have become, folks.)
However, no OFF DUTY employees sitting in a passenger seat are permitted to go to the flightdeck. That includes off duty pilots I've been in QF 16 years and have travelled on A330's numerous times - but as a professional pilot, a Captain, I have NEVER even seen the flightdeck of the A330! And they wonder about engagement?
Let me restate the situation "correctly" : any pilot allowing anyone other than operating crew to enter the flight deck inflight will be sacked. Employees with ASICs may ride there but must remain there to whole time - unless they say "I need a wee" - the one little exception to the previous sentence . Any non-operating employee in a passenger seat is forbidden from entering. Non-employees, including family members are never allowed there ever (well, ok, at the moment they can have a look after shutdown).
I have no doubt next year there will be a move to ban ALL EMPLOYEES other than operating crew. That will include commuters - watch out. Coming soon - I'll put money on it. CM will hold off the dogs for only so long.
The rumours continue to fly that DOTARs want to ban the pilots' family members from even being on the SAME AIRCRAFT
I reckon DOTARs will have their way on that in the next 1-2 years.
Perhaps by 2010 they will haver suceeded in banning even operating crew members from the flight deck.
Are you happy now, Condition Lever? Did I miss out any dots and crosses on the "i's and "t"s?
Send me to the back of the class like an errant child. Mate - do not be so obnoxious and simply state "you are wrong". Mate - I (like you?) have to deal with this crap on a daily basis - I am well aware of what is required. And frankly I'm just wasting my time and bandwidth by debating anything with you, but for the "benefit" of all:
yes, you are right
, employees ARE permitted to jumpseat, but they have to remain there for the entire time. UNLESS... they need to take a toilet break. Then they ARE permitted to go into the cabin to the toilet, but ARE TO RETURN IMMEDIATELY. THEY ARE NOT TO LINGER CHATTING!! Well there's a real security risk - lingering and chatting to the cabin crew having been sitting on the jumpseat! (I will never forget: about 3 years ago when I was an F/O, we had two jumpseat riders (check-in staff) between PER and SYD. They both went out "for a toilet break". After about 5 minutes the Captain was getting all agitated about where they were. He rang the cabin. "Oh, they're out here, talking to us". Capt's reply: "Well, send them back right away, it's a security risk"............. Yup, that's what we have become, folks.)However, no OFF DUTY employees sitting in a passenger seat are permitted to go to the flightdeck. That includes off duty pilots
I've been in QF 16 years and have travelled on A330's numerous times - but as a professional pilot, a Captain, I have NEVER even seen the flightdeck of the A330! And they wonder about engagement?Let me restate the situation "correctly"
: any pilot allowing anyone other than operating crew to enter the flight deck inflight will be sacked. Employees with ASICs may ride there but must remain there to whole time - unless they say "I need a wee" - the one little exception to the previous sentence . Any non-operating employee in a passenger seat is forbidden from entering. Non-employees, including family members are never allowed there ever (well, ok, at the moment they can have a look after shutdown).I have no doubt next year there will be a move to ban ALL EMPLOYEES other than operating crew. That will include commuters - watch out. Coming soon - I'll put money on it. CM will hold off the dogs for only so long.
The rumours continue to fly that DOTARs want to ban the pilots' family members from even being on the SAME AIRCRAFT
I reckon DOTARs will have their way on that in the next 1-2 years.Perhaps by 2010 they will haver suceeded in banning even operating crew members from the flight deck.
Are you happy now, Condition Lever? Did I miss out any dots and crosses on the "i's and "t"s?
Last edited by Ron & Edna Johns; 7th Jun 2007 at 23:47.
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One other element of this is the requirement of any aircraft flying through or to US airspace to adhere to their rules.Not only does this apply to flight deck access but the cabin as well.
A great example of this is the requirement to make a PA to the cabin advising the pax that it is not allowed for them to congregate outside of toilets.
Now after you have done a meal service for just under 300 pax and there are only 8 toilets this becomes an impossibility.
Practicality and indeed reality has little to do with the regs.
A great example of this is the requirement to make a PA to the cabin advising the pax that it is not allowed for them to congregate outside of toilets.
Now after you have done a meal service for just under 300 pax and there are only 8 toilets this becomes an impossibility.
Practicality and indeed reality has little to do with the regs.
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Hooray!!!!
Jesus H. Christ! Thank you Mr. Wellhung! The rest of you need to study up on 'netiquette' (however the hell you spell it) 2 F**king pages to get an answer to a simple question........... Moderator?????
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Boys - there's probably a pretty good reason why its taken so long - they probably want to keep it below the radar. In light of the approach QF has taken to all this I'd be keeping it pretty damn quiet too for fear that eventually "they" hear about the DJ way and go, "hmmmmmmmmm, can't have that."
Sometimes a question is just better not asked and even better not answered. And sometimes thread drift is a wonderful thing for deflecting focus.
Sometimes a question is just better not asked and even better not answered. And sometimes thread drift is a wonderful thing for deflecting focus.
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Jumpseat and the red tailed parrot
Not a problem until things go pear shaped and the jump seat person suddenly turns up on the cock pit voice recorder during an overrun or some such incident. Of course the red tailed parrot has never had an overun. better keep to the rules.
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Ron & Edna,
What a complete and utter over reaction!!!
To quote you: "simply state "you are wrong"." - what did I write to you? "Rod & Edna - you are wrong, they don't have to be flight/cabin crew, just as above"
You must have had a bad day!!??
All the best!
What a complete and utter over reaction!!!
To quote you: "simply state "you are wrong"." - what did I write to you? "Rod & Edna - you are wrong, they don't have to be flight/cabin crew, just as above"
You must have had a bad day!!??
All the best!
