Qantas 787's
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Neville Nobody,
You're making something of an assumption there, sport!
However QF will need to spend some money on new aircraft soon as they can't keep running around with what they've got forever. Since they are enjoying some good times at the moment it would be wise for a responsible manager to outlay some money into capital expenditure for the future.
A Supa Dupa lightweight 2 class B777-200ELR for nonstop to LHR and JFK is on the drawing board at Boeing.
Features include B787 style interior and Panasonic IFE system plus some other goodies.
Features include B787 style interior and Panasonic IFE system plus some other goodies.
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IMHO, the problem with all the idea of the 'supa dupa' Tripler is that there would be a very limited customer base for such an aircraft. Let's think who would want an aircraft with such long legs:
- Qantas - maybe 15?
- BA - maybe 10? (if that - given they now only operate to one city (Sydney) in Oceania)
- Virgin - maybe 6?
- Air NZ - maybe 5?
- might Air France want a few to operate direct Paris - Noumea/Papeete? ok, maybe 8, then.
Other European carriers don't, IMHO, give much of a toss about operating to Australia and so are unlikely to invest; same goes for US carriers (who are happy to operate as now via a West Coast hub). Carriers based at intermediate ports (ie. Asia, Middle East) don't need the legs.
My point is that 45-50 airframes might not be enough to justify the development cost.
Then again, if Air India or some US carriers decided that they needed some to operate between India and the US, and there was a strong case that the type could improve the economics of direct S.E Asia - US runs, there might be more to it...
European carriers can already operate to all global destinations aside from Australia/Oceania with existing equipment.
- Qantas - maybe 15?
- BA - maybe 10? (if that - given they now only operate to one city (Sydney) in Oceania)
- Virgin - maybe 6?
- Air NZ - maybe 5?
- might Air France want a few to operate direct Paris - Noumea/Papeete? ok, maybe 8, then.
Other European carriers don't, IMHO, give much of a toss about operating to Australia and so are unlikely to invest; same goes for US carriers (who are happy to operate as now via a West Coast hub). Carriers based at intermediate ports (ie. Asia, Middle East) don't need the legs.
My point is that 45-50 airframes might not be enough to justify the development cost.
Then again, if Air India or some US carriers decided that they needed some to operate between India and the US, and there was a strong case that the type could improve the economics of direct S.E Asia - US runs, there might be more to it...
European carriers can already operate to all global destinations aside from Australia/Oceania with existing equipment.
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The problem is Jetstar International are flat out keeping Captains at the moment, they are all leaving because of the $hit conditions on offer. The rumour has commenced because training Captains have said that in the current conditions, Jetstar is incapable of launching a new type. Case in Note an Emirates Captain joined Jet* and his first line sector Sydney -> Honolulu, he just resigned then made his way back to Dubai, cause he was fed up with them after one sector! Take heart! It means we are and I can guarantee shortly that we will be all in demand! The Multi Crew License is just a symptom that pilots are running short! 
Taildragger67. There is little development cost for the B777-200ELR, 85% of the work has been done. There is no new certification requirements.
The QF requirements in the RFP are quite demanding but Boeing and GE are confident they can be met and expect to make a formal offer to QF in late August.
Boeing expect to sell 100 B777-200ELR's within 3 years of its launch. There are a number of carriers including SQ, CX, TG, DL and CO you have not mentioned.
Four of the five carriers you have suggested may be interested in the a/c did not appear on the Boeing ''handout".
The QF requirements in the RFP are quite demanding but Boeing and GE are confident they can be met and expect to make a formal offer to QF in late August.
Boeing expect to sell 100 B777-200ELR's within 3 years of its launch. There are a number of carriers including SQ, CX, TG, DL and CO you have not mentioned.
Four of the five carriers you have suggested may be interested in the a/c did not appear on the Boeing ''handout".
Taillie
A lot of the new technology enhancements for the ELR will be incorporated into all B777 models resulting in fuel savings and keeping the Tripler competitive with Airbus' proposed A350 XWB. I think that Boeing has to make these enhancements otherwise the B777 production run would end prematurely.
A lot of the new technology enhancements for the ELR will be incorporated into all B777 models resulting in fuel savings and keeping the Tripler competitive with Airbus' proposed A350 XWB. I think that Boeing has to make these enhancements otherwise the B777 production run would end prematurely.
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Boeing is doing some internal competition - the comments on some threads are that they are also working on the improved 787-8 which might carry 250 passengers between London and Sydney.
The airlines who might operate an improved 787 could include Virgin. If the Open Skies that USA and Europe are finalising leads to open skies between
Australia and USA and Australia and Europe there are many more airlines than Virgin who have ordered the 787. The airline First Choice from UK is talking about flying Inclusive Tourist passengers from UK to Hawaii in their new 787s to be delivered in 2009. There are specialised Business Class airlines like Maxjet, Eos and Silverjet. These airlines are making a go of flying (used) 757s and 767s across the Atlantic. By the mid 2010s these airlines might be in the position to consider new planes. Silverjet could be the airline that flies between London and Sydney, and Maxjet could be the airline that flies between NY and Sydney.
The improved 787 would have to be a better plane than any 777 because of lower weights. The improved 777-300ER with 787 technology fed back into will be the plane to fly 350 passengers up to 7500 miles.
The airlines who might operate an improved 787 could include Virgin. If the Open Skies that USA and Europe are finalising leads to open skies between
Australia and USA and Australia and Europe there are many more airlines than Virgin who have ordered the 787. The airline First Choice from UK is talking about flying Inclusive Tourist passengers from UK to Hawaii in their new 787s to be delivered in 2009. There are specialised Business Class airlines like Maxjet, Eos and Silverjet. These airlines are making a go of flying (used) 757s and 767s across the Atlantic. By the mid 2010s these airlines might be in the position to consider new planes. Silverjet could be the airline that flies between London and Sydney, and Maxjet could be the airline that flies between NY and Sydney.
The improved 787 would have to be a better plane than any 777 because of lower weights. The improved 777-300ER with 787 technology fed back into will be the plane to fly 350 passengers up to 7500 miles.
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hey guys, i'm impressed, a thread debating the pros and cons of aircraft rather than the usual personal diatribe and attacks on each others airline. It made good reading, please continue. Some of the other threads seem like emotional footy fans venting. Ive flown both Boeing and Airbus, but the 'Broncos' my team.
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Originally Posted by Taildragger67
IMHO, the problem with all the idea of the 'supa dupa' Tripler is that there would be a very limited customer base for such an aircraft. Let's think who would want an aircraft with such long legs:
- Qantas - maybe 15?
- BA - maybe 10? (if that - given they now only operate to one city (Sydney) in Oceania)
- Virgin - maybe 6?
- Air NZ - maybe 5?
- might Air France want a few to operate direct Paris - Noumea/Papeete? ok, maybe 8, then.
Other European carriers don't, IMHO, give much of a toss about operating to Australia and so are unlikely to invest; same goes for US carriers (who are happy to operate as now via a West Coast hub). Carriers based at intermediate ports (ie. Asia, Middle East) don't need the legs.
My point is that 45-50 airframes might not be enough to justify the development cost.
- Qantas - maybe 15?
- BA - maybe 10? (if that - given they now only operate to one city (Sydney) in Oceania)
- Virgin - maybe 6?
- Air NZ - maybe 5?
- might Air France want a few to operate direct Paris - Noumea/Papeete? ok, maybe 8, then.
Other European carriers don't, IMHO, give much of a toss about operating to Australia and so are unlikely to invest; same goes for US carriers (who are happy to operate as now via a West Coast hub). Carriers based at intermediate ports (ie. Asia, Middle East) don't need the legs.
My point is that 45-50 airframes might not be enough to justify the development cost.
Nepotisim
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Going Boeing and B772,
Don't get me wrong - I'd love to see it happen. If the work can be done cost-effectively, I hope Seattle does it.
But, I just think about the 74L, 743 and 764 projects and wonder if they'd want to go down the niche road again.
But you're right, they may make enhancements across the whole 777 range which could thereby spread the costs and make it (the ELR) a profitable programme.
Hope so!
Don't get me wrong - I'd love to see it happen. If the work can be done cost-effectively, I hope Seattle does it.
But, I just think about the 74L, 743 and 764 projects and wonder if they'd want to go down the niche road again.
But you're right, they may make enhancements across the whole 777 range which could thereby spread the costs and make it (the ELR) a profitable programme.
Hope so!
Taillie
Don't forget to add the B753 to your list of dud Boeing programs. A lot of money spent on these projects with very poor returns.
I wouldn't have included the B743 on the list as it was a relatively minor fuselage mod which sold in reasonable numbers and was subsequently the fuselage for the B744 so the development costs would have been recouped many times over. GB
Don't forget to add the B753 to your list of dud Boeing programs. A lot of money spent on these projects with very poor returns.
I wouldn't have included the B743 on the list as it was a relatively minor fuselage mod which sold in reasonable numbers and was subsequently the fuselage for the B744 so the development costs would have been recouped many times over. GB
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Angle of Attack...........
You are full of SH#T...
There have been only a couple of resignations at JQ recently, and they were 320 pilots moving to asia...
Stop posting rubbish and stick to the facts......
I know for a fact training JQ managment are working out training slots for the 787's now...
Like it or not the 787 is going to be painted orange and grey.....so get used to it!!!!
You are full of SH#T...
There have been only a couple of resignations at JQ recently, and they were 320 pilots moving to asia...
Stop posting rubbish and stick to the facts......
I know for a fact training JQ managment are working out training slots for the 787's now...
Like it or not the 787 is going to be painted orange and grey.....so get used to it!!!!
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Well actually AOA is is correct that one Captain did resign after one or two sectors and went back to EK.
This is a fact and should not be in dispute.
The Captain in question was on leave from EK pending resignation, did not like JQ so pulled his resignation with EK and returned.
This is a fact and should not be in dispute.
The Captain in question was on leave from EK pending resignation, did not like JQ so pulled his resignation with EK and returned.
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Let's think who would want an aircraft with such long legs
Any Asian carrier flying to USA, especially beyond the West Coast.
South Africa and South America to Australasia.
Any airline not based in the centre of the aviation world (Asia/Middle east).
The lightweight 787 airframe has the potential for similar range to the B777 but at lower cost. However, this version is over a decade away, if indeed it will ever be developed. Weight & balance, takeoff performance, reliabilty etc needs a quantum leap before this aircraft can achieve such an endurance stretch. Mature aircraft like the B777 and B744 have taken over 10 years to stretch an equivalent amount. The 787 will likely take a similar time. Meanwhile....
