Is this Fed Gov, ADF and QF corruption?
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Is this Fed Gov, ADF and QF corruption?
QF wins $900m defence contract - no other tenders invited
QANTAS has been awarded a $900 million defence contract, bringing Australian defence force heads under pressure to explain how the deal was awarded.
The contract gives Qantas the right to transport military personnel, but other air carriers have revealed that they were never asked to submit a tender for the contract, the Seven Network reports.
Labor's federal defence spokesman Joel Fitzgibbon said potential bidders had been blocked from applying for the defence personnel contract.
"This is a scandal,'' Mr Fitzgibbon said.
"Last time this contract was met it was subject to a competitive tender saving the taxpayer tens, if not hundreds of millions of dollars.''
A spokesman for Defence Minister Brendan Nelson distanced the minister from the decision, saying it was all the work of the department.
Qantas declined to comment.
- AAP
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au...-23349,00.html
QANTAS has been awarded a $900 million defence contract, bringing Australian defence force heads under pressure to explain how the deal was awarded.
The contract gives Qantas the right to transport military personnel, but other air carriers have revealed that they were never asked to submit a tender for the contract, the Seven Network reports.
Labor's federal defence spokesman Joel Fitzgibbon said potential bidders had been blocked from applying for the defence personnel contract.
"This is a scandal,'' Mr Fitzgibbon said.
"Last time this contract was met it was subject to a competitive tender saving the taxpayer tens, if not hundreds of millions of dollars.''
A spokesman for Defence Minister Brendan Nelson distanced the minister from the decision, saying it was all the work of the department.
Qantas declined to comment.
- AAP
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au...-23349,00.html
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That article also contained the following paragraph which was omitted above:
A defence spokesperson told Seven that the department had not called for tenders because Qantas was the only company that could fill the contract.
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Jack Red :- The obvious response to the "only company that could fill the contract" line is to ask "Who wrote the F%^&ing contract that way and why??????"
It would be obvious that the International should be separated from the Domestic to give bidders an even chance.
But of course that was never the intention was it?
It would be obvious that the International should be separated from the Domestic to give bidders an even chance.
But of course that was never the intention was it?
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steady up .. the defence contract you mention is not just about shuffling the diggers around the country/globe.
It also includes the relocation of thousands of families around the place.
The last time I looked, there are more than a few carriers who just don't go to every location that a defence family may need to.
It also includes the relocation of thousands of families around the place.
The last time I looked, there are more than a few carriers who just don't go to every location that a defence family may need to.
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When there's a crisis involving Australians somewhere in the world (Beirut, Tsunami, Bali, London etc etc), which airline consistently flies in to pick them up (for FREE)? With the exception of a few Virgin flights post Tsunami, where are all the other 'contenders'? Are travel agents even capable or chartering a 747 within a day? How about an hour?
There are simply no other Australian organistions with the capability to fulfill the ADF contract.
There are simply no other Australian organistions with the capability to fulfill the ADF contract.
Interesting!
It was clearly NOT Qantas that brought the Chinook boys and girls back from the land of the Afghan hound last Sunday.
Didn't recognise the airline - light blue tail with a crescent of stars ??
Would be curious to know who it was,
Dr
It was clearly NOT Qantas that brought the Chinook boys and girls back from the land of the Afghan hound last Sunday.
Didn't recognise the airline - light blue tail with a crescent of stars ??
Would be curious to know who it was,
Dr
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Just a quick question.
Why did it have to be one company? If it had gone out to competetive tender a consortium may have tendered a bid. Is there some reason it had to be one company capable of covering all routes? Does this mean Qantas can't allow BA to cover any of the flights if it does have to be one company?
Seems a bit fishy to me!
Why did it have to be one company? If it had gone out to competetive tender a consortium may have tendered a bid. Is there some reason it had to be one company capable of covering all routes? Does this mean Qantas can't allow BA to cover any of the flights if it does have to be one company?
Seems a bit fishy to me!
Thread Starter
Hi Lancer,
I am not in a position to argue what you say, “There are simply no other Australian organistions with the capability to fulfill the ADF contract”. But I find it pathetically amusing how you jump to conclusions. Considering people I know who fly Government aircraft have to reapply for their own job every 2 years, and that job is advertised in newspapers, all in the name of keeping it all above board and honest, I find it in my opinion outrageous and skeptical of some non standard procedures and possible unethical motives here. *Lancer*, There is no possible way that you can say QF is the only company with the capability, you clearly know the fine details of this contract, can you please explain every part of it?
*Lancer*, When the ADF required a long range widebody service almost a couple of times a week from OZ to the Middle East, I bet you would have said “There are simply no other Australian organistions with the capability to fulfill the ADF contract”. Thinking, what company in Oz has widebodies, but guess what, it was put up to tender and Strategic Aviation won it reportable saving more than 100M over 3 years operating a A330 I believe it was reported at the time, I the tax payer saved money. When things fire up in the South Pacific, and request for services was put out, did QF win those, nope, contract agencies won it putting the work out to Alliance and Ozjet etc, Did QF win this ADF work, nope, When Timor required services, and it was tendered, did QF win that, nope, a contract agency did and saved the taxpayer a huge amount of money. How do you know that the likes of a contract company was not able to team up with it’s partners and companies like Strategic or Oz jet could not lease what ever hardware was required, Hey, they already have. In my opinion it is not unreasonable to question and ask for a explanation of why this was not tendered for. Now the question has been asked, look at all the buck passing. This stinks of corruption at the Federal level. If it was put through the normal process, well then maybe QF would have won it, so be it. I can only ask WHY this was not tendered publicly.
I am not in a position to argue what you say, “There are simply no other Australian organistions with the capability to fulfill the ADF contract”. But I find it pathetically amusing how you jump to conclusions. Considering people I know who fly Government aircraft have to reapply for their own job every 2 years, and that job is advertised in newspapers, all in the name of keeping it all above board and honest, I find it in my opinion outrageous and skeptical of some non standard procedures and possible unethical motives here. *Lancer*, There is no possible way that you can say QF is the only company with the capability, you clearly know the fine details of this contract, can you please explain every part of it?
*Lancer*, When the ADF required a long range widebody service almost a couple of times a week from OZ to the Middle East, I bet you would have said “There are simply no other Australian organistions with the capability to fulfill the ADF contract”. Thinking, what company in Oz has widebodies, but guess what, it was put up to tender and Strategic Aviation won it reportable saving more than 100M over 3 years operating a A330 I believe it was reported at the time, I the tax payer saved money. When things fire up in the South Pacific, and request for services was put out, did QF win those, nope, contract agencies won it putting the work out to Alliance and Ozjet etc, Did QF win this ADF work, nope, When Timor required services, and it was tendered, did QF win that, nope, a contract agency did and saved the taxpayer a huge amount of money. How do you know that the likes of a contract company was not able to team up with it’s partners and companies like Strategic or Oz jet could not lease what ever hardware was required, Hey, they already have. In my opinion it is not unreasonable to question and ask for a explanation of why this was not tendered for. Now the question has been asked, look at all the buck passing. This stinks of corruption at the Federal level. If it was put through the normal process, well then maybe QF would have won it, so be it. I can only ask WHY this was not tendered publicly.
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Not all there
Guys, I don't know if the decision is right or wrong.
But all the info is not bieng seen here, also many have the wrong idea what this contract is for.
it is not for moving defence personnel to/from war zones.
What it is, is for moving ADF members, defecnce civilians (PS), and assorted hangar-ons (cadets, families etc) from one base to another for:
Posting, Leave, holidays, short term work, meetings, conferences etc.
The main areas which (used to be a requirment) were, different classes, route structure, terminal facilities (clubs, etc), flight scedule and such.
I can see that the way of thinking was that the Q, is the only airline that can offer all of this, plus the overseas conection. I have had a fair bit of dealing with Q Defence travel over the years (Per and Drw) and was amazed at the complexity of the whole operation.
Again, not saying its right or wrong, but there is a fair bit too it that is not bieng shown.
richo
But all the info is not bieng seen here, also many have the wrong idea what this contract is for.
it is not for moving defence personnel to/from war zones.
What it is, is for moving ADF members, defecnce civilians (PS), and assorted hangar-ons (cadets, families etc) from one base to another for:
Posting, Leave, holidays, short term work, meetings, conferences etc.
The main areas which (used to be a requirment) were, different classes, route structure, terminal facilities (clubs, etc), flight scedule and such.
I can see that the way of thinking was that the Q, is the only airline that can offer all of this, plus the overseas conection. I have had a fair bit of dealing with Q Defence travel over the years (Per and Drw) and was amazed at the complexity of the whole operation.
Again, not saying its right or wrong, but there is a fair bit too it that is not bieng shown.
richo
Thread Starter
Richo thanks for your input, 
I do see the point you are making, the people involved seem to be very good at buck passing and not answering questions though. I still think it is wrong that it was not properly tendered for, as there are some very large cooperate flight agents (specialized travel agents used by big corporations) that could easily set up departments that could have done this job and have agreements with more than just QF. Then if a dedicated machine is required, they do charter Jets, turbo props to get the job done and have working relationships with the logistics agencies/Airlines like Adagold, Pratrics Defence Logistics, OzJet, Stragetic Aviation, Allience, and would charter QF is needed. Sure high ranking or what ever the reason folks travel first class, they still can, the same guide lines could easily be set as is now for particular ranks etc. Sure, they could even not use JetStar as I know several companies who do not permit their staff to travel on it to help morel. But really, moving a family from Sydney to Adelaide, if it is at decent times and 40% cheaper on DJ, I find it hard to swallow that my taxes are being used in this way, when these companies were denied to even bid. This is favoritism and in my personal opinion corruption.
I do see the point you are making, the people involved seem to be very good at buck passing and not answering questions though. I still think it is wrong that it was not properly tendered for, as there are some very large cooperate flight agents (specialized travel agents used by big corporations) that could easily set up departments that could have done this job and have agreements with more than just QF. Then if a dedicated machine is required, they do charter Jets, turbo props to get the job done and have working relationships with the logistics agencies/Airlines like Adagold, Pratrics Defence Logistics, OzJet, Stragetic Aviation, Allience, and would charter QF is needed. Sure high ranking or what ever the reason folks travel first class, they still can, the same guide lines could easily be set as is now for particular ranks etc. Sure, they could even not use JetStar as I know several companies who do not permit their staff to travel on it to help morel. But really, moving a family from Sydney to Adelaide, if it is at decent times and 40% cheaper on DJ, I find it hard to swallow that my taxes are being used in this way, when these companies were denied to even bid. This is favoritism and in my personal opinion corruption.
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To answer your question Ejector, no, I won't explain every part of the contract for you. As you point out, all these other requests for services are open to tender, yet in this case: "the department had not called for tenders because Qantas was the only company that could fill the contract." [You left that little quote out of your original post, but never let the facts get in the way of a good agenda!]
Would you have preferred a few months of bureaucratic red tape just to prove that the Qantas group is the only Australian company with scheduled long haul international services?
Would you have preferred a few months of bureaucratic red tape just to prove that the Qantas group is the only Australian company with scheduled long haul international services?
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Lancer I can see what you are saying however I'm sure there are other Australian companies who could organise both domestic and international flights for the ADF.
Qantas does not fly to every destination that may be required and QF would just organise a flight with another carrier.
Why cannot another Australian company do the same?
Qantas does not fly to every destination that may be required and QF would just organise a flight with another carrier.
Why cannot another Australian company do the same?
Thread Starter
Fork Tailed Dr. Killer
This is an example of what tendering can do, and why it should be done. When the ADF decided they wanted a Long-Range Wide Body to service the Gulf almost a couple of times a week, I am sure that some people in the Fed Gov/ ADF would have thought, “gezz, the only operator with Long Range Wide Bodies is Qantas, lets give our mates and bum chums there the contract”, I think QF would have been interested as this was during the aviation down turn still after 911 but to their surprise when they tendered it, there was another player. An Australian Contract agency, “Strategic Aviation” using a JAR operated A330. Reports at the time were of over 100 MILLION in saving the Australian Tax payer, and QF with their pocket lining bid didn’t win it. This is an example why they all should be tendered. To let new concepts also come into play, and help stop Australia becoming a backwater.
This is an example of what tendering can do, and why it should be done. When the ADF decided they wanted a Long-Range Wide Body to service the Gulf almost a couple of times a week, I am sure that some people in the Fed Gov/ ADF would have thought, “gezz, the only operator with Long Range Wide Bodies is Qantas, lets give our mates and bum chums there the contract”, I think QF would have been interested as this was during the aviation down turn still after 911 but to their surprise when they tendered it, there was another player. An Australian Contract agency, “Strategic Aviation” using a JAR operated A330. Reports at the time were of over 100 MILLION in saving the Australian Tax payer, and QF with their pocket lining bid didn’t win it. This is an example why they all should be tendered. To let new concepts also come into play, and help stop Australia becoming a backwater.
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Slightly off track, but no doubt related...
Friend of a friend (ex QF Engineer - funny that) got a job with 34th Squadron for maintaining A330 fleet. Part of his package when he left QF involved staff travel entitlements (limited, however, he still has something from his package for staff travel purposes)...
Now that's he left QF, part of his employment at ADF includes upgradeable to FIRST CLASS tickets on any QF international service.
Says a lot when you have to leave Qantas, and join the ADF, to get better travel entitlements than an employee of the Qantas Group.
Now - not that I begrudge this fellow first class tickets - or for that matter, any of the ADF force - but it gives me the s**ts no end that employees are made to wait 7 years before they get a look at Business Class on international flights...and here's people who aren't even employed by QF grabbing P class when it suits!
I smell a rat.
Friend of a friend (ex QF Engineer - funny that) got a job with 34th Squadron for maintaining A330 fleet. Part of his package when he left QF involved staff travel entitlements (limited, however, he still has something from his package for staff travel purposes)...
Now that's he left QF, part of his employment at ADF includes upgradeable to FIRST CLASS tickets on any QF international service.
Says a lot when you have to leave Qantas, and join the ADF, to get better travel entitlements than an employee of the Qantas Group.
Now - not that I begrudge this fellow first class tickets - or for that matter, any of the ADF force - but it gives me the s**ts no end that employees are made to wait 7 years before they get a look at Business Class on international flights...and here's people who aren't even employed by QF grabbing P class when it suits!
I smell a rat.
An Australian Contract agency, “Strategic Aviation” using a JAR operated A330. Reports at the time were of over 100 MILLION in saving the Australian Tax payer, and QF with their pocket lining bid didn’t win it.
Thread Starter
Just think MR SEATPACK, there are not really that many tax payers in Aust that actually pay that much. I am not going to enter if this is a ‘rourt’ of the system of misuse of MY money or not, but lets assume these same guide lines remain the same like this, imagine how much could be saved if it was the cheaper 1st class ticket was bought when there is an option. This option has been denied, or at least even the oportunity to be questioned, This is wrong
“Would you have preferred a few months of bureaucratic red tape just to prove that the Qantas group is the only Australian company with scheduled long haul international services?” I disagree, If QF was the only one capable, then it would not have been much Red tape would there, what I am saying is it is morally wrong that other organizations were DENIED to bid. It’s not every day you see 900 MILION Dollar travel agency bids get offered un tendered for. Further more, I am sure that QF doesn’t have a route network that goes EVERY WHERE with spare seats at a whim. What is wrong with someone going to the states for some training on Air New Zealand if it saved 30%, or what happens if QF are full that day, a cooperate flight company could use manay airlines for the best time on the best day or best price combo, which is better serving the ADF and the tax payer. Using the emotional thingo of QF being Australian, give me a break, Just ask the F/A that were based in Melb, and the new massive base on massive inferior conditions in NZ. QF, aka 51%, Bangkok and London local bases. OK, that was a bit side tracked I know, but, if I want to go from Brisbane to London, I look at more than just QF, I feel in my opinion that any one that wouldn’t should not be in a position to book a ticket.
“Would you have preferred a few months of bureaucratic red tape just to prove that the Qantas group is the only Australian company with scheduled long haul international services?” I disagree, If QF was the only one capable, then it would not have been much Red tape would there, what I am saying is it is morally wrong that other organizations were DENIED to bid. It’s not every day you see 900 MILION Dollar travel agency bids get offered un tendered for. Further more, I am sure that QF doesn’t have a route network that goes EVERY WHERE with spare seats at a whim. What is wrong with someone going to the states for some training on Air New Zealand if it saved 30%, or what happens if QF are full that day, a cooperate flight company could use manay airlines for the best time on the best day or best price combo, which is better serving the ADF and the tax payer. Using the emotional thingo of QF being Australian, give me a break, Just ask the F/A that were based in Melb, and the new massive base on massive inferior conditions in NZ. QF, aka 51%, Bangkok and London local bases. OK, that was a bit side tracked I know, but, if I want to go from Brisbane to London, I look at more than just QF, I feel in my opinion that any one that wouldn’t should not be in a position to book a ticket.
Thread Starter
Capt Fathom,
The A330 is chartered to Strategic Aviation for a ADF contract, not Qantas.
Nothing to do with Qantas.
Before this thread gets side tracked, I just want to note that it all comes back to, if it was publicly tendered for, there wouldn’t be this discussion. It really smells fishy though.
The A330 is chartered to Strategic Aviation for a ADF contract, not Qantas.
Nothing to do with Qantas.
Before this thread gets side tracked, I just want to note that it all comes back to, if it was publicly tendered for, there wouldn’t be this discussion. It really smells fishy though.
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A good move putting Gen. Peter Cosgrove on the board. It is interesting that the US experience is that most military transport is done by way of charter carriers, in a way similar to the use of Strategic. No one should really be suprised about the tender being awarded to QF; the government props up the Red Rat when ever it can by way of a padded contract (read: subsidy). This diminishes the credibility of the often heard QF argument that competitors, such as Emirates and SQ, are protected by their governments and thus should be denied rights out of Oz. Whilst there is little argument that they are, so, it seems, is Qantas.
It is interesting that the US experience is that most military transport is done by way of charter carriers, in a way similar to the use of Strategic. No one should really be suprised about the tender being awarded to QF; the government props up the Red Rat when ever it can by way of a padded contract (read: subsidy). This diminishes the credibility of the often heard QF argument that competitors, such as Emirates and SQ, are protected by their governments and thus should be denied rights out of Oz. Whilst there is little argument that they are, so, it seems, is Qantas.
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So what's the solution -- allow Emirates and SingAir to bid for the ADF contract?
Ejector, using your example, its not about having the seats available, its about physically having the seats in the first place. If all the flights are full, an agent has zero chance of meeting its contractual obligation, whereas the airline itself has the ability to make other arrangements (commercial offload for example). Only the operator is able to guarantee an immediate solution to a contractual demand.
A fishy smell doesn't always lead to conspiracy!
Ejector, using your example, its not about having the seats available, its about physically having the seats in the first place. If all the flights are full, an agent has zero chance of meeting its contractual obligation, whereas the airline itself has the ability to make other arrangements (commercial offload for example). Only the operator is able to guarantee an immediate solution to a contractual demand.
A fishy smell doesn't always lead to conspiracy!