Those overpaid Pornstar Pilots!
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Those overpaid Pornstar Pilots!
It is true - you DO learn something new every day.
Reading the AFR Easter edition article about QF ("Fears are Flying") and was astounded to hear that QF pilots with 30 years earn $300,000.00 whilst the poor old Pornstar pilots only earn $250,000.00 - and the poor guys/girls actually have to do overtime to achieve that.
And here I was thinking Pornstar would top out around $170-175,000.00 in an exceptionally good year.
Have to chalk that up as a win to Dixon in the public perception battle.
Reading the AFR Easter edition article about QF ("Fears are Flying") and was astounded to hear that QF pilots with 30 years earn $300,000.00 whilst the poor old Pornstar pilots only earn $250,000.00 - and the poor guys/girls actually have to do overtime to achieve that.
And here I was thinking Pornstar would top out around $170-175,000.00 in an exceptionally good year.
Have to chalk that up as a win to Dixon in the public perception battle.
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In the interest of balanced reporting and journalism did the AFR point out Darths remuneration including bonus's especially compared to others airline CEO's.
This is really a one way information street.Perhaps the unions should put a private investigator onto Darth to see if he has any skeletons hiding in the closet.
The only way we are going to get rid of Darth is to play the game his way.The main problem is that he has loaded his board with mates in high places.
The other problem is that truth is a perception and that truth is perceived through the media.
As with the Defence contract is there anyone else on the board who could help Darth with his media releases.......
This is really a one way information street.Perhaps the unions should put a private investigator onto Darth to see if he has any skeletons hiding in the closet.
The only way we are going to get rid of Darth is to play the game his way.The main problem is that he has loaded his board with mates in high places.
The other problem is that truth is a perception and that truth is perceived through the media.
As with the Defence contract is there anyone else on the board who could help Darth with his media releases.......
It would only be 747-400 skippers who would be getting that sort of dough. The 737 and 767 Captains wouldn't be anywhere near that sort of money. I think you would find it would be inclusive of allowances etc
The issue of the payment of board members has been done in the press using the old Yes Minister trick. They compared Geoff's salary to some of the top CEO's in the USA and say to attract the right people they had to pay big money and compared to these guys it is not that much more.
Then when comparing pilots wages Geoff comes out and says we have to be competitive with Asian airlines, and compared to them Australians are paid way to much.
What Geoff forgets to mention is that all these Asian Airlines:
Pay for the ENTIRE cost of training of ALL their pilots. God only knows what the real cost of this would be but it would have to be at least $200 000+ per employee. Not to mention the ones they fail.
When comparing to an airline that lives in a tax haven they compare the QF pilot's taxable salary to non taxed salary
Many Asian Airlines have to employ western crews because they can't get insurance!! These western crews are then paid much more money than what they are paying QF captains. QF captains can leave QF and pick up contracts for more money than what QF pay, which would kind of suggest that QF aren't paying a true "market rate".
The RAAF is recognising the value of their pilots and will start offering very favourable conditions to keep them. A drop in the ocean compared to the money they've spent training them.
It's about time someone in the media started doing some truthful REAL wages and costs of pilots rather than all the BS that they spin. If QF compared the REAL cost of their pilots vs the REAL cost of their Asian counterparts, and western airlines they might find out that they some of the best value for money flight crews in the world. But QF probably don't want people to know that now do they?
The issue of the payment of board members has been done in the press using the old Yes Minister trick. They compared Geoff's salary to some of the top CEO's in the USA and say to attract the right people they had to pay big money and compared to these guys it is not that much more.
Then when comparing pilots wages Geoff comes out and says we have to be competitive with Asian airlines, and compared to them Australians are paid way to much.
What Geoff forgets to mention is that all these Asian Airlines:
Pay for the ENTIRE cost of training of ALL their pilots. God only knows what the real cost of this would be but it would have to be at least $200 000+ per employee. Not to mention the ones they fail.
When comparing to an airline that lives in a tax haven they compare the QF pilot's taxable salary to non taxed salary
Many Asian Airlines have to employ western crews because they can't get insurance!! These western crews are then paid much more money than what they are paying QF captains. QF captains can leave QF and pick up contracts for more money than what QF pay, which would kind of suggest that QF aren't paying a true "market rate".
The RAAF is recognising the value of their pilots and will start offering very favourable conditions to keep them. A drop in the ocean compared to the money they've spent training them.
It's about time someone in the media started doing some truthful REAL wages and costs of pilots rather than all the BS that they spin. If QF compared the REAL cost of their pilots vs the REAL cost of their Asian counterparts, and western airlines they might find out that they some of the best value for money flight crews in the world. But QF probably don't want people to know that now do they?
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The article was solely related to aircrew and flighties, nothing else.
The spin was how the management (the good guys) were having to deal with the high cost basis of QF (the QF pilots and flighties, whilst not the baddies were certainly where all of QF's cost woes were, yeah right .)
Obviously if the above employees are "sorted out" QF will no longer have any problems!
Morons!
The positive thing (but will Joe Public really understand or even care??) was the article spoke to a number of pilots/flighties and the sense of uncertainty, distrust and destruction of morale being felt by the people who actually get out there and do the work came through, a bit more emphasis would have been nice but better than nothing and better than some of the crap that they call "reporting" when it comes to QF through the eyes of Dixon et al.
The most glaring "mistake"
was the Pornstar salaries.
The spin was how the management (the good guys) were having to deal with the high cost basis of QF (the QF pilots and flighties, whilst not the baddies were certainly where all of QF's cost woes were, yeah right
.)Obviously if the above employees are "sorted out" QF will no longer have any problems!
Morons!The positive thing (but will Joe Public really understand or even care??) was the article spoke to a number of pilots/flighties and the sense of uncertainty, distrust and destruction of morale being felt by the people who actually get out there and do the work came through, a bit more emphasis would have been nice but better than nothing and better than some of the crap that they call "reporting" when it comes to QF through the eyes of Dixon et al.
The most glaring "mistake"
was the Pornstar salaries.
Tell me more....
Running a real risk of thread drift here, but Neville I am most interested in the plans you say the RAAF has for retaining its aircrew. The way I understand it is that CAF wants to RECRUIT his way out of the current situation and if the current guys don't like it they can walk.
Happy to be corrected with any facts that may be out there on this topic.
Cheers
Cap'n
Happy to be corrected with any facts that may be out there on this topic.
Cheers
Cap'n
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I am most interested in the plans you say the RAAF has for retaining its aircrew
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I've always found that the biggest issue is the requirement to go to work whether you have duties (flying related) to do or not.
Hanging around the crew room with nothing better to do than play ukkers seemed a waste of time.
Change the lifestyle to one resembling that enjoyed in the airlines and the retention rates may become better.
Hanging around the crew room with nothing better to do than play ukkers seemed a waste of time.
Change the lifestyle to one resembling that enjoyed in the airlines and the retention rates may become better.
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RAAF Retention
Where to start on this one????? Some (and only some) of what I see:
Pay - Everyone has an amount of money that they will accept to do a job they are not happy with. The amount may vary from person to person however. There is almost no pay progression after completing 10 years of service. People then look to see what they can earn in the next 30 years of working life. Over the long term there is no comparison with pay. The RAAF will fall very very short.
Training budget - The RAAF (as I guess all public service) has this strange concept of putting costs in different buckets of money which can never moved from one to another. The training budget is almost unlimited. The RAAF just thinks it can train its way out. I have never understood the logic in replacing a brand new pilot with one who has 10+ years of experience. No other private organisation could exist this way. Retention would be significantly greater if a proportion of this cost went into pay.
Posting - People just get sick of being posted every 2-3 year (or at least the threat of it) to some different location. You can have a solid career plan that can evaporate when there is a change in personality in the positions above you. I know people move with other employers, however there is usually some ability to agree or not. The posting cycle also affects the RAAF's ability to manage retention. All the senior positions also just have to see out there 2-3 years before they move on. The problems that exist with retention now have always been there. These issues were told to me by my first XO when he resigned many, many years ago.
Aviation cycles - The RAAF is affected by airline recruiting. There was a program called the 'Pilot Retention Project' that was cancelled soon after Sept 11 and Ansett colapsed. Throw SARS into the mix and obviously retention was not an issue anymore. This project had a great number of good initiatives to try and manage the pilot resource. Now the industry is recruiting again the RAAF is in no position to offer any coherent response.
Some people love the RAAF and will never want to leave it. Good on them, the organisation is surviving on their good will. To others, if you are holding out for a pay rise or the organisation to change, it is not going to happen.
OIC Big Picture
Pay - Everyone has an amount of money that they will accept to do a job they are not happy with. The amount may vary from person to person however. There is almost no pay progression after completing 10 years of service. People then look to see what they can earn in the next 30 years of working life. Over the long term there is no comparison with pay. The RAAF will fall very very short.
Training budget - The RAAF (as I guess all public service) has this strange concept of putting costs in different buckets of money which can never moved from one to another. The training budget is almost unlimited. The RAAF just thinks it can train its way out. I have never understood the logic in replacing a brand new pilot with one who has 10+ years of experience. No other private organisation could exist this way. Retention would be significantly greater if a proportion of this cost went into pay.
Posting - People just get sick of being posted every 2-3 year (or at least the threat of it) to some different location. You can have a solid career plan that can evaporate when there is a change in personality in the positions above you. I know people move with other employers, however there is usually some ability to agree or not. The posting cycle also affects the RAAF's ability to manage retention. All the senior positions also just have to see out there 2-3 years before they move on. The problems that exist with retention now have always been there. These issues were told to me by my first XO when he resigned many, many years ago.
Aviation cycles - The RAAF is affected by airline recruiting. There was a program called the 'Pilot Retention Project' that was cancelled soon after Sept 11 and Ansett colapsed. Throw SARS into the mix and obviously retention was not an issue anymore. This project had a great number of good initiatives to try and manage the pilot resource. Now the industry is recruiting again the RAAF is in no position to offer any coherent response.
Some people love the RAAF and will never want to leave it. Good on them, the organisation is surviving on their good will. To others, if you are holding out for a pay rise or the organisation to change, it is not going to happen.
OIC Big Picture
Last edited by dash4blind; 7th Apr 2007 at 23:59.
PAF
You might be able to change to a limited number of aircraft types in the transport world, but not where I come from. I'm sure that I could learn something in the transport world and vice versa, but it's not something that can be done.
I know occasionally somebody escapes, but it's such a fight they never return.
You might be able to change to a limited number of aircraft types in the transport world, but not where I come from. I'm sure that I could learn something in the transport world and vice versa, but it's not something that can be done.
I know occasionally somebody escapes, but it's such a fight they never return.
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Talk about thread drift!
Generally speaking the pay after 10 years flying in the RAAF is pretty good and a jump to any of the airlines out there will see most people taking a significant cut (apart from the D/E CX A330 F/O jobs) in the short term. Long term is a different issue. Most of the RAAF Drivers I know would be happy to stay in forever on FLTLT/SQNLDR pay if they could have more say in their career's direction and have a chance to gain some geographical stability, mainly for their wife and kids sake. Increasing the pay or offering a retention bonus isn't the answer. The majority of people who take it would probably have stayed on anyway. The flying sh@ts on anything out there because you fly diverse profiles to the limits of the aircraft's design. If the RAAF can address the stability and direction issues (which will always be difficult to apply across the board) to a force that is small and thus has little "flex" then it won't have to worry about recruiting it's way out of any manning problems.
Any ideas??
Generally speaking the pay after 10 years flying in the RAAF is pretty good and a jump to any of the airlines out there will see most people taking a significant cut (apart from the D/E CX A330 F/O jobs) in the short term. Long term is a different issue. Most of the RAAF Drivers I know would be happy to stay in forever on FLTLT/SQNLDR pay if they could have more say in their career's direction and have a chance to gain some geographical stability, mainly for their wife and kids sake. Increasing the pay or offering a retention bonus isn't the answer. The majority of people who take it would probably have stayed on anyway. The flying sh@ts on anything out there because you fly diverse profiles to the limits of the aircraft's design. If the RAAF can address the stability and direction issues (which will always be difficult to apply across the board) to a force that is small and thus has little "flex" then it won't have to worry about recruiting it's way out of any manning problems.
Any ideas??
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G'day,
Having seen another defence force that has more multi tour pilots on Squadron I'd say it is achieveable. Interestingly enough a lot of them still go through the whole, do i stay in or go airline dilema at the 20 year mark when they can get their pension. I can't help but think that the new guys are more productive and service minded than the jaded and crusty old timers though. Is it inevitable that you become crusty if you stay in just because of the demands and BS? There's certainly more tedious ****e than the airlines so maybe it is?!
But is the ADF really ever going to be able to offer continual locational stability and/or the ability to change aircraft types until retirement? If you end up with a large core of multi-tour captains how long is it going to take guys to get their captaincy, the same as airlines? Then what happens when you have extend periods of high op tempo (ALG and SRG at the moment for instance), high seperation and only a trickle in at the bottom because your training/conversion system has shrunk. We'd be buggered. Maybe the current system of high training output (that can be throttled partly) though not good for morale and retention beyond 10 years more suits the company's needs? Bugger..
Drifting slightly, what I never understood is having DP full of Admino's and aircrew. It seems to me to be one of those areas that stands to benefit from some permanent public servants that have got some HRM smarts to deal with long term planning, retention etc. as opposed to the 2 or 3 year crisis management view that RAAFies bring to the job. Of course there would still need to be PAF people envolved but the long term plan needs to be carried.
Happy Easter by the way.
PLE..
Just for info really, here's a link to the ADF review under way at the moment:
http://www.navy.gov.au/SCIMARS/Docs/...924AE908CC.pdf
Having seen another defence force that has more multi tour pilots on Squadron I'd say it is achieveable. Interestingly enough a lot of them still go through the whole, do i stay in or go airline dilema at the 20 year mark when they can get their pension. I can't help but think that the new guys are more productive and service minded than the jaded and crusty old timers though. Is it inevitable that you become crusty if you stay in just because of the demands and BS? There's certainly more tedious ****e than the airlines so maybe it is?!
But is the ADF really ever going to be able to offer continual locational stability and/or the ability to change aircraft types until retirement? If you end up with a large core of multi-tour captains how long is it going to take guys to get their captaincy, the same as airlines? Then what happens when you have extend periods of high op tempo (ALG and SRG at the moment for instance), high seperation and only a trickle in at the bottom because your training/conversion system has shrunk. We'd be buggered. Maybe the current system of high training output (that can be throttled partly) though not good for morale and retention beyond 10 years more suits the company's needs? Bugger..
Drifting slightly, what I never understood is having DP full of Admino's and aircrew. It seems to me to be one of those areas that stands to benefit from some permanent public servants that have got some HRM smarts to deal with long term planning, retention etc. as opposed to the 2 or 3 year crisis management view that RAAFies bring to the job. Of course there would still need to be PAF people envolved but the long term plan needs to be carried.
Happy Easter by the way.
PLE..
Just for info really, here's a link to the ADF review under way at the moment:
http://www.navy.gov.au/SCIMARS/Docs/...924AE908CC.pdf
Nunc est bibendum
As an outsider to the whole RAAF system what constantly amazes me is that this is the exact same issues that the RAAF were discussing in the late '80s when I was applying to join and then again in the late '90s when the airlines (QF anyway) were recruiting in a big way. Everything changes and nothing changes. I can only believe that the top echelon perceive no problem with the turnover.
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Keeping the thread drift drifting......
Remember, the RAAF is a pyramid structure......they don't need to retain too many more (on average) than they currently do. One of the issues is that the departures tend to come in a rush every so often (coinciding with airline recruitment), which makes it very difficult to plan and manage postings, and also results in a wealth of experience leaving all of a sudden.
One of the other issues (which may be generational) is that very few pilots see any prestige/value in staying around to make it to the top. Almost no one aspires to become even a CO, let alone the giddy heights above. I've worked with US squadrons who have several supernumerary WGCDR equivalents, which seems to indicate there is more than enough guys who want to climb the food chain......not so in the RAAF. (Couldn't think of anything worse myself). In the modern RAAF, it's a case of ".....you're still here and you're breathing, so here's another stripe for your shoulder!!" Look at the number of Pig Navs occupying fighter CE positions around the place as suitable illustration! I will temper this with the fact that a few very high quality guys make the decision to remain in the RAAF, and end up running the Wings, FEGs and higher......hats off to them...they are part of the reason the RAAF enjoys its enviable operational reputation.
lmh
One of the other issues (which may be generational) is that very few pilots see any prestige/value in staying around to make it to the top. Almost no one aspires to become even a CO, let alone the giddy heights above. I've worked with US squadrons who have several supernumerary WGCDR equivalents, which seems to indicate there is more than enough guys who want to climb the food chain......not so in the RAAF. (Couldn't think of anything worse myself). In the modern RAAF, it's a case of ".....you're still here and you're breathing, so here's another stripe for your shoulder!!" Look at the number of Pig Navs occupying fighter CE positions around the place as suitable illustration! I will temper this with the fact that a few very high quality guys make the decision to remain in the RAAF, and end up running the Wings, FEGs and higher......hats off to them...they are part of the reason the RAAF enjoys its enviable operational reputation.
lmh
