OZ Tiger?
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The pressure is already biting in the Oz region... just that poor management don't want to listen to the warning signs, that have been evident for some time...
...QF AND VB exodis to the Middle East, PB mass resignations, ANZ many "leave with out pay"... VB cancelling flights (+PB soon!?), Rex and Eastern losing many, as is Skips... Cathay/HK Airlines/Lion Air/Dragon ramping up more, if not already in high training mode... I could go on...
The call to management to "Wake up and smell the coffee" is being heard in many board rooms.
Happy landings, which ever path you choose
...QF AND VB exodis to the Middle East, PB mass resignations, ANZ many "leave with out pay"... VB cancelling flights (+PB soon!?), Rex and Eastern losing many, as is Skips... Cathay/HK Airlines/Lion Air/Dragon ramping up more, if not already in high training mode... I could go on...
The call to management to "Wake up and smell the coffee" is being heard in many board rooms.
Happy landings, which ever path you choose
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I asked the same question. See Emirates come to town page 5
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...=265812&page=5
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...=265812&page=5
Silly Old Git
Darwhine base Bus anyone?
Tiger pounces on Darwin den
EXCLUSIVE By ALISON BEVEGE
10apr07
LOW-COST airline Tiger Airways plans to use Darwin as its transport hub in Australia.
But chief executive Tony Davis yesterday refused to say if that meant the city would be the airline's national headquarters.
Mr Davis said Darwin would gradually be built up as Tiger's hub _ linking future domestic Australian services with Asian routes.
``Our vision for Darwin would be that it becomes a natural connecting point between Asia and the rest of Australia,'' he told the Northern Territory News yesterday.
The move means Territorians would have access to Tiger's expected low-cost domestic airfares once the services were running.
An influx of stop-over tourists is also likely as passengers may take short breaks between connecting flights to see what the Northern Territory has to offer. Tiger Airways uses Airbus A320s.
Mr Davis said the five-hour flying range made Darwin the logical choice as a gateway to Asian destinations. ``What we're not interested in doing is flying non-stop, say, from Asia to the east coast of Australia, as we'd have to buy different types of aircraft,'' Mr Davis said.
While he would not be drawn on where Tiger may base its Australian headquarters, Darwin International Airport chief executive Ian Kew said he expected it would be Melbourne or Brisbane.
``We'd be delighted for Tiger to set up an Australian head office in Darwin,'' Mr Kew said. ``But I don't think that will happen. I think they are planning to base five aircraft in one location _ Melbourne or Brisbane.''
Mr Kew said Darwin would still benefit from the increased services _ and said he thought the move could be soon.
``We're not sure of their timetable but it could well happen by the end of the year,'' he said.
Mr Kew and Tourism Minister Paul Henderson lobbied Tiger Airways in February for domestic services and to urge it to use Darwin as its Australian headquarters.
The airline gained approval from the Foreign Investment Review Board last month to establish a domestic Australian operation.
It is now working with the Civil Aviation Safety Authority to get domestic permits to fly, with services expected to start later this year.
http://www.ntnews.news.com.au/printp...530387,00.html
Tiger pounces on Darwin den
EXCLUSIVE By ALISON BEVEGE
10apr07
LOW-COST airline Tiger Airways plans to use Darwin as its transport hub in Australia.
But chief executive Tony Davis yesterday refused to say if that meant the city would be the airline's national headquarters.
Mr Davis said Darwin would gradually be built up as Tiger's hub _ linking future domestic Australian services with Asian routes.
``Our vision for Darwin would be that it becomes a natural connecting point between Asia and the rest of Australia,'' he told the Northern Territory News yesterday.
The move means Territorians would have access to Tiger's expected low-cost domestic airfares once the services were running.
An influx of stop-over tourists is also likely as passengers may take short breaks between connecting flights to see what the Northern Territory has to offer. Tiger Airways uses Airbus A320s.
Mr Davis said the five-hour flying range made Darwin the logical choice as a gateway to Asian destinations. ``What we're not interested in doing is flying non-stop, say, from Asia to the east coast of Australia, as we'd have to buy different types of aircraft,'' Mr Davis said.
While he would not be drawn on where Tiger may base its Australian headquarters, Darwin International Airport chief executive Ian Kew said he expected it would be Melbourne or Brisbane.
``We'd be delighted for Tiger to set up an Australian head office in Darwin,'' Mr Kew said. ``But I don't think that will happen. I think they are planning to base five aircraft in one location _ Melbourne or Brisbane.''
Mr Kew said Darwin would still benefit from the increased services _ and said he thought the move could be soon.
``We're not sure of their timetable but it could well happen by the end of the year,'' he said.
Mr Kew and Tourism Minister Paul Henderson lobbied Tiger Airways in February for domestic services and to urge it to use Darwin as its Australian headquarters.
The airline gained approval from the Foreign Investment Review Board last month to establish a domestic Australian operation.
It is now working with the Civil Aviation Safety Authority to get domestic permits to fly, with services expected to start later this year.
http://www.ntnews.news.com.au/printp...530387,00.html
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Third airline?
QANTAS, or should I say QAS, because they don't got to NT anymore?
JETSTAR.
VIRGIN.
I think that there is already 3.
Thankfully ANSETT fell over otherwise we would have had 4 airlines in a country that everyone thinks can only support 2 airlines.
Bring on the Tiger.
Bring on the Kiwi.
The more airlines offering cheap airfares the better.
The road toll will be reduced even further.
QANTAS, or should I say QAS, because they don't got to NT anymore?
JETSTAR.
VIRGIN.
I think that there is already 3.
Thankfully ANSETT fell over otherwise we would have had 4 airlines in a country that everyone thinks can only support 2 airlines.
Bring on the Tiger.
Bring on the Kiwi.
The more airlines offering cheap airfares the better.
The road toll will be reduced even further.
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for the millionth and first time Qantas STILL flies to NT ...
jetstar is yet to see the light of day in AYQ, ASP and GOV
JQ supplements QF on ADL-DRW and BNE-DRW
JQ replaced QF on MEL-DRW and DRW-SIN
QF/QFlink still offer ex DRW to CNS, GOV, BNE, SYD, ASP, ADL n PER
life is not over
jetstar is yet to see the light of day in AYQ, ASP and GOV
JQ supplements QF on ADL-DRW and BNE-DRW
JQ replaced QF on MEL-DRW and DRW-SIN
QF/QFlink still offer ex DRW to CNS, GOV, BNE, SYD, ASP, ADL n PER
life is not over
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IMHO VB is the airline with most to lose. With codesharing, Tiger will be in a very strong position. VB has been too slow going international. I would expect a few pax to transfer from QF initially, but a far greater percentage will come from VB. The same goes for pilots.
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Agreed 56P. Jetstar pilots are on a pretty good run at the moment (quick commands, new types coming, home at night on the domestic ops.)
Virgin pilots however, from what i hear, are very unhappy with their side of things and the prospect of getting into Tiger early before they tear VB to shreads could be a smart move. Even if they had to pay for a new type (A320)
However, the SIA boss has been reported stating that Tiger Oz will need to get there hands quickly, on as many narrow body aircraft as they can to support the expected growth. Airbus AND Boeing. So with 737s possibly in the mix, VB pilots may be looking at a free pass out.
Virgin pilots however, from what i hear, are very unhappy with their side of things and the prospect of getting into Tiger early before they tear VB to shreads could be a smart move. Even if they had to pay for a new type (A320)
However, the SIA boss has been reported stating that Tiger Oz will need to get there hands quickly, on as many narrow body aircraft as they can to support the expected growth. Airbus AND Boeing. So with 737s possibly in the mix, VB pilots may be looking at a free pass out.
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It's interesting to see lots of this discussion about Tiger's prospects being based around where Australian staff and crews will take their careers, as opposed to where the customers will take their business. Yes - before anyone starts - I know this a forum for airline industry professionals, but the prospects for Tiger and problems they will have to overcome are plain to see. And they're significant.
Tiger's going to need a LOT of time and money to survive the knee-jerk reactions of VB and J*/Qantas. There will be a squeeze, which these other ailrines can sustain for quite a while, albeit hammering their bottom line (as hard as a 5 plane start-up can hammer its competitors). Such steps are often necesarry in the interests of longevity, though. That's not news.
In the current climate of massive, and frankly often unreal expectations in business, I'm curious to see just how far the Tiger benefactors will go to try and break into Australia.
Personally - and be assured, I REALLY couldn't give a **** what happens, afterall, I'm just a tourist in OZ, although I have a certain level of expertise when it comes to lo-co, for what it's worth - I think the true european-style lo-co model (yes, I know it's originally American, yadda, yadda, yadda) that Tiger are bringing to Oz with their retail-based franchise business model, won't succeed in significantly affecting the general landscape.
There's a whole heap of factors to consider, obvious ones being infrastructure, established frequent flyer initiatives, market knowledge, etc, along with other non-tangible, but nonetheless very real factors such as 'fans' and positive experiences with the existing airlines and their wider brands. Fact is, passengers in Australia get a hell of a lot of value for their low fare - definitely more than in europe. Tiger doesn't appear to be factoring significant benefits into its offering, other than dropping the price. A bit.
On the question of fans, Tiger can win it's own, but this will take time it may not have. I've flown with Tiger a number of times in Asia - they're really quite unremarkable, as you'd expect from a lo-co airline. There's nothing whatsoever to set them apart from a customer's perspective. If anything, there's a key negative factor that sets them apart, in that their seats are noticably more cramped. Clarification will be needed here on whether they intend to use the same config in the Australian franchise. And franchise or not, the name Tiger and experiences of it will transfer, regardless of how seperate the regional companies actually are. If one is failing customers in a particular way, a level of impact will be felt by the others - although this also works the other way, but the average human being is notorious for being quicker to criticise than praise (just look at these forums!).
I just don't think that slightly lower fares are the be-all-and-end-all (because slightly lower is all they can really be, given current fare prices), especially in an already highly value-centric, low fare driven market. This has been proven in other areas all over the world, notably the retail sector, so why should the airline industry be any different? I'm open to other opinions - this is a good subject to discuss. My mind isn't made up entirely.
This is just my opinion. I'm not looking to fight anyone who has a sworn allegiance to a particular airline here. I've experiened low fares with both Jetstar and Virgin Blue time and time again (I only chose to travel by plane when the price is right!) and I reckon that their offereing, particularly Virgin Blue's, is strong enough and adaptable enough to withold being 'torn to shreds' by Tiger, as someone said earlier.
Rather than Tiger blowing the market apart, I think at best they'll find a niche and exist alongside the VB and J*, if they survive the squeeze that'll come at the end - indeed hail the end - of their 'honeymoon' period. They might well slow the expansion of the other airlines and cause a few boardroom headaches (the Australian domestic market can only get so big, anyway), but I think it's all going to be quite unremarkable.
Future growth for Australian airlines in general looks set to be by way of complementing domestic services by evolving the lo-co model and growing the business beyond the limited domestic market, like turning an eye to long haul as i now happening, albeit belatedly in the opinion of some folks. This is the crux - the Australian lo-co model of VB and J* is already a considerable evolution of the classic low cost model, and that's why I think that Tiger's bare bones, no frills low-cost business model (with absolutely no plans to look to long haul, according to Tony Davis very recently) is not going to make waves, if survive at all for any respectable period of time. It's not bringing enough to the party for its own long-term survival, and slightly lower fares on limited domestic services alone won't win it for them in the long run.
I know it's largely PR guff, but I nonetheless was interested to see that Tiger have been asking Australian people where they want to fly to. What did they expect to hear? I can't think that this survey returned any major revelations for them. Most of the feasible destinations not served by the current airlines aren't served for a reason. They're either slated for future services already, aren't worth serving financially (even from an uber-low cost perspective) or can't accomodate a A320 or 737. If anyone's got the upper-hand here, it's VB with their clever addition of smaller Embraer jets. These jets may by committed to other routes already, but they nonetheless contribute to a considerably more reactive and flexible arsenal for VB, with their very existence in the VB armoury being yet another example of the ever-evolving lo-co model downunder - a key fundamental of the classic lo-co model is the restriction to 1 type of aircraft.
Tiger's scope for innovation seems to be somewhat limited, but let's wait and see. It's just how Tiger intened to adapt the lo-co model that's the big issue here. Jetstar's priorities seem to be on show, as they press on with more A330s and a suite of fancy 787s. This may work in Tiger's favour. Then again, it may not. Of the two existing lo-co airlines, it's Jet* that will have their work most cut-out as they are behind VB with their current offering, in terms of destinations and frequency. However, the Qantas take-over bods are clearly switched on to the significance of the budget market, so expect more cash to be thrown at Jet*. Especially now the Tiger is lurking.
Lastly, nobody with an ounce of common sense can believe that Tiger can sustain a serious, comprehensive offering of the 'single digit fares' it's crowing about in the build-up to launch. It won't happen - that's a certainty. Their low fares will pale into the general low-fare backdrop of the current market.
The upshot of all of this...
Competitors will adapt and things will change a bit.
Fares may come down slightly.
And that will be it.
(I could've just written that last bit, couldn't I?)
Tiger's going to need a LOT of time and money to survive the knee-jerk reactions of VB and J*/Qantas. There will be a squeeze, which these other ailrines can sustain for quite a while, albeit hammering their bottom line (as hard as a 5 plane start-up can hammer its competitors). Such steps are often necesarry in the interests of longevity, though. That's not news.
In the current climate of massive, and frankly often unreal expectations in business, I'm curious to see just how far the Tiger benefactors will go to try and break into Australia.
Personally - and be assured, I REALLY couldn't give a **** what happens, afterall, I'm just a tourist in OZ, although I have a certain level of expertise when it comes to lo-co, for what it's worth - I think the true european-style lo-co model (yes, I know it's originally American, yadda, yadda, yadda) that Tiger are bringing to Oz with their retail-based franchise business model, won't succeed in significantly affecting the general landscape.
There's a whole heap of factors to consider, obvious ones being infrastructure, established frequent flyer initiatives, market knowledge, etc, along with other non-tangible, but nonetheless very real factors such as 'fans' and positive experiences with the existing airlines and their wider brands. Fact is, passengers in Australia get a hell of a lot of value for their low fare - definitely more than in europe. Tiger doesn't appear to be factoring significant benefits into its offering, other than dropping the price. A bit.
On the question of fans, Tiger can win it's own, but this will take time it may not have. I've flown with Tiger a number of times in Asia - they're really quite unremarkable, as you'd expect from a lo-co airline. There's nothing whatsoever to set them apart from a customer's perspective. If anything, there's a key negative factor that sets them apart, in that their seats are noticably more cramped. Clarification will be needed here on whether they intend to use the same config in the Australian franchise. And franchise or not, the name Tiger and experiences of it will transfer, regardless of how seperate the regional companies actually are. If one is failing customers in a particular way, a level of impact will be felt by the others - although this also works the other way, but the average human being is notorious for being quicker to criticise than praise (just look at these forums!).
I just don't think that slightly lower fares are the be-all-and-end-all (because slightly lower is all they can really be, given current fare prices), especially in an already highly value-centric, low fare driven market. This has been proven in other areas all over the world, notably the retail sector, so why should the airline industry be any different? I'm open to other opinions - this is a good subject to discuss. My mind isn't made up entirely.
This is just my opinion. I'm not looking to fight anyone who has a sworn allegiance to a particular airline here. I've experiened low fares with both Jetstar and Virgin Blue time and time again (I only chose to travel by plane when the price is right!) and I reckon that their offereing, particularly Virgin Blue's, is strong enough and adaptable enough to withold being 'torn to shreds' by Tiger, as someone said earlier.
Rather than Tiger blowing the market apart, I think at best they'll find a niche and exist alongside the VB and J*, if they survive the squeeze that'll come at the end - indeed hail the end - of their 'honeymoon' period. They might well slow the expansion of the other airlines and cause a few boardroom headaches (the Australian domestic market can only get so big, anyway), but I think it's all going to be quite unremarkable.
Future growth for Australian airlines in general looks set to be by way of complementing domestic services by evolving the lo-co model and growing the business beyond the limited domestic market, like turning an eye to long haul as i now happening, albeit belatedly in the opinion of some folks. This is the crux - the Australian lo-co model of VB and J* is already a considerable evolution of the classic low cost model, and that's why I think that Tiger's bare bones, no frills low-cost business model (with absolutely no plans to look to long haul, according to Tony Davis very recently) is not going to make waves, if survive at all for any respectable period of time. It's not bringing enough to the party for its own long-term survival, and slightly lower fares on limited domestic services alone won't win it for them in the long run.
I know it's largely PR guff, but I nonetheless was interested to see that Tiger have been asking Australian people where they want to fly to. What did they expect to hear? I can't think that this survey returned any major revelations for them. Most of the feasible destinations not served by the current airlines aren't served for a reason. They're either slated for future services already, aren't worth serving financially (even from an uber-low cost perspective) or can't accomodate a A320 or 737. If anyone's got the upper-hand here, it's VB with their clever addition of smaller Embraer jets. These jets may by committed to other routes already, but they nonetheless contribute to a considerably more reactive and flexible arsenal for VB, with their very existence in the VB armoury being yet another example of the ever-evolving lo-co model downunder - a key fundamental of the classic lo-co model is the restriction to 1 type of aircraft.
Tiger's scope for innovation seems to be somewhat limited, but let's wait and see. It's just how Tiger intened to adapt the lo-co model that's the big issue here. Jetstar's priorities seem to be on show, as they press on with more A330s and a suite of fancy 787s. This may work in Tiger's favour. Then again, it may not. Of the two existing lo-co airlines, it's Jet* that will have their work most cut-out as they are behind VB with their current offering, in terms of destinations and frequency. However, the Qantas take-over bods are clearly switched on to the significance of the budget market, so expect more cash to be thrown at Jet*. Especially now the Tiger is lurking.
Lastly, nobody with an ounce of common sense can believe that Tiger can sustain a serious, comprehensive offering of the 'single digit fares' it's crowing about in the build-up to launch. It won't happen - that's a certainty. Their low fares will pale into the general low-fare backdrop of the current market.
The upshot of all of this...
Competitors will adapt and things will change a bit.
Fares may come down slightly.
And that will be it.
(I could've just written that last bit, couldn't I?)
Last edited by harrogate; 19th Apr 2007 at 10:14.
A Few facts
- Emirates are not offering $1 Million for 10 years service
- There is no shortage of pilots(ask Heather Jeffrey @ VB)
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I can't see many pilots going across to Tiger when they are not sure how long they will stick around. Tiger has lost money over the last 2 years and bringing only 5 A320's into the Australian Market is not going to raise their profits if they are forced to offer single diget fares to combat QF and DJ.
I am sure that Mr Dixon and Godfrey have already sat down over tea and bikkies to discuss the Tiger invasion and what they can do together to lessen the impact. I can see if Tiger run the main trunk routes SYD / MEL and BNE then QF will move JQ across to the these routes to counter the Tiger.
I don't think the new 7 A320's that JQ wil get will be to expand the JQ network. They will go where ever Tiger goes.
I am sure that Mr Dixon and Godfrey have already sat down over tea and bikkies to discuss the Tiger invasion and what they can do together to lessen the impact. I can see if Tiger run the main trunk routes SYD / MEL and BNE then QF will move JQ across to the these routes to counter the Tiger.
I don't think the new 7 A320's that JQ wil get will be to expand the JQ network. They will go where ever Tiger goes.
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Just to throw it out there! I heard recently that tiger may buy into or have some future interest in REX!? true or false who knows, has anyone heard the same?
Apparently REX sydney slots with a regional feeder might be a good option for a new carrier.
Apparently REX sydney slots with a regional feeder might be a good option for a new carrier.
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Originally Posted by Stubby
Just to throw it out there! I heard recently that tiger may buy into or have some future interest in REX!?
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Greenslopes,
Virgin Blue have announched a purchase of 20 Embraer jets as well as 5 new B737. BG said " We have done modelling to get to 13 B777 " (Australian Aviation May 2007 p 22)
Tiger airways will soon join our domestic market with initially 5 A320's raising to up to 30 aircraft (The Australian Friday March 16)
Jetstar has announced an increase in capacity of 40%.
Regional Express (REX) has announced a purchase of 25 Saab 340 B+ aircraft.
Qantas still to take delivery of A380 aircraft and up to 111 x B787...
I think your expected time frame of 5 - 10 years a bit too long. The shortage is here!!!!
Virgin Blue have announched a purchase of 20 Embraer jets as well as 5 new B737. BG said " We have done modelling to get to 13 B777 " (Australian Aviation May 2007 p 22)
Tiger airways will soon join our domestic market with initially 5 A320's raising to up to 30 aircraft (The Australian Friday March 16)
Jetstar has announced an increase in capacity of 40%.
Regional Express (REX) has announced a purchase of 25 Saab 340 B+ aircraft.
Qantas still to take delivery of A380 aircraft and up to 111 x B787...
I think your expected time frame of 5 - 10 years a bit too long. The shortage is here!!!!