My Real Concern about Terrorism
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My Real Concern about Terrorism
Before I start speaking lets forget all politics, I am speaking truthfully and completely in a new topic anyone has talked about since the so called "terrorists" became an issue. I have a problem with security, thats clear if you read my previous posts, and we can debate it all we like. But my question is "Just how safe are we?"
Terrorists are patient, you just have to look at the delay between the first bombing of the World Trade Centre and the next succesful destruction of it around 10 years later.
We can debate security all we like, but let's face it, we can not stop a terrrorist attack. If we are talking about an Aviation security threat lets talk the truth.. It is all show, why not learn to fly, get your CPL and gain employment as an Airline Pilot in a major Airline?
What is in place to stop someone gaining there license and going through the hoops ( just like the rest of us) , gaining employment in any major Airline.. then being a "Sleeper" and waiting for a major massive co-ordinated attack on multiple targets throughouts the world?
Unfortunatley nothing! at the moment...
I think we really need to discuss the real issues (minus politicians) because we have already realised they dont have realistic answers...
Let's have a proper debate on what we can do to remedy this situation...
Terrorists are patient, you just have to look at the delay between the first bombing of the World Trade Centre and the next succesful destruction of it around 10 years later.
We can debate security all we like, but let's face it, we can not stop a terrrorist attack. If we are talking about an Aviation security threat lets talk the truth.. It is all show, why not learn to fly, get your CPL and gain employment as an Airline Pilot in a major Airline?
What is in place to stop someone gaining there license and going through the hoops ( just like the rest of us) , gaining employment in any major Airline.. then being a "Sleeper" and waiting for a major massive co-ordinated attack on multiple targets throughouts the world?
Unfortunatley nothing! at the moment...
I think we really need to discuss the real issues (minus politicians) because we have already realised they dont have realistic answers...
Let's have a proper debate on what we can do to remedy this situation...
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For now, I think there is no real way of being able to detect such persons or control the actions of the pilot(s) once they're airborne.
What airlines COULD do is install some kind of monitoring system and have security officers on board the plane to ensure everything goes smoothly or have a computer system lock the controls and fly the aircraft out of harms way while someone on the ground remotely controls and lands it... I suppose we're getting a bit too carried away there, but I think it'd be possible through today's technology.
There is no initiative for such a technology at the moment as nobody believes that terrorists would amass worldwide as airline pilots and wage havoc. This is because it's simply very much unlikely to occur when you consider the time, money and educational requirements of becoming an airline pilot. I think terrorists would find such a plan far less feasible than something like building a nuclear weapon and detonating it in our backyard, which is just as unlikely.
What airlines COULD do is install some kind of monitoring system and have security officers on board the plane to ensure everything goes smoothly or have a computer system lock the controls and fly the aircraft out of harms way while someone on the ground remotely controls and lands it... I suppose we're getting a bit too carried away there, but I think it'd be possible through today's technology.
There is no initiative for such a technology at the moment as nobody believes that terrorists would amass worldwide as airline pilots and wage havoc. This is because it's simply very much unlikely to occur when you consider the time, money and educational requirements of becoming an airline pilot. I think terrorists would find such a plan far less feasible than something like building a nuclear weapon and detonating it in our backyard, which is just as unlikely.
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It has happened
There was once a young man in Australia, who went to a flying school and learned to fly. I believe he started from scratch, and did his ppl, and cpl at the same flying school. He then went to Alice Springs and got a job with Connair. At that time Connair did not hire pilots, they hired "traffic officers" who usually progressed to become pilots. A smart idea. However this young man did not impress, and soon ended up unemployed. He went north I'm not sure where he went,Hall's creek, or somewhere up there. He was unhappy, and wrote some very strange things in his diary. He tried to steal a Queen air, but could not get it started, so he stole a Baron instead. He had planned to be in Alice Springs when all the Connair staff were on a tea break, and would all be in the canteen between the two hangars. He entered the control zone without a clearance, and made only one very unusual radio transmission before crashing the baron into the canteen. Some people were killed, and some injured.
I often wonder if the instructors at the flying school saw anything unusual during the many hours they must have spent with him. It is now obvious that this young man was insane.
I often wonder if the instructors at the flying school saw anything unusual during the many hours they must have spent with him. It is now obvious that this young man was insane.
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I often wonder if the instructors at the flying school saw anything unusual during the many hours they must have spent with him. It is now obvious that this young man was insane.
anyway, pretty disturbing story. Hope nothing like that ever happens where I'm learning to fly.
I also wonder why this guy had a tough time finding a job.
I thought it was easy to slide into an instructors job after you complete the CPL and instructors rating. Guess I thought wrong
Before I start speaking lets forget all politics, I am speaking truthfully and completely in a new topic anyone has talked about since the so called "terrorists" became an issue
http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/low/...ng/default.stm
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I dont think we are under that great of threat from the air when it comes to a terrorist attack, as has been seen in the past, the terrorist weapon of choice is a car, van or backpack.
and as for security protecting us from such weapons? well there is none, in my previous life as a courier operator, the amount of access granted to van drivers with a logo on the side is amazing! the premiers department in syd was a regular client, no id, no check nothing, just drive on under the building, same for the International and domestic terminal at YSSY, i had regular deliveries of promotional material to the Sanity record stores, straight under the terminal, in a loaded van, no id, nothing, then carry 4 boxes full of 400 CD to the elevator, and into the "sterile" side of the airport, again, no xray, no id check, not even a glance from the security guards.
sadly in Sydney, it doesn't take much to stop the city. just look at the train breakdown the other night! 1 train, a vast majority of the city is thrown into chaos...
you can bring the entire metro area to a standstill with just 4 cars in a few strategic intersections, and just 2 trains stopped in certain places..
i think, if there will be an attack on Aussie soil it will come from a backpack or vehicle..
and as for security protecting us from such weapons? well there is none, in my previous life as a courier operator, the amount of access granted to van drivers with a logo on the side is amazing! the premiers department in syd was a regular client, no id, no check nothing, just drive on under the building, same for the International and domestic terminal at YSSY, i had regular deliveries of promotional material to the Sanity record stores, straight under the terminal, in a loaded van, no id, nothing, then carry 4 boxes full of 400 CD to the elevator, and into the "sterile" side of the airport, again, no xray, no id check, not even a glance from the security guards.
sadly in Sydney, it doesn't take much to stop the city. just look at the train breakdown the other night! 1 train, a vast majority of the city is thrown into chaos...
you can bring the entire metro area to a standstill with just 4 cars in a few strategic intersections, and just 2 trains stopped in certain places..
i think, if there will be an attack on Aussie soil it will come from a backpack or vehicle..
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Agree with Ultralights. The probability of any terrorist attack is extremely small. The consequences of an attack can vary but are usually tiny compared to non-terrorsist threats to humanity.
All the same, terror is involved, so we need to do something! Gotta be able to sleep at night.
In the case of air travel and use of aircraft as weapons the government has a responsibility to do everything reasonable to prevent an associated terrorist attack. IE, pax screening. An organised terrorist group will always find ways around these security mechanisms but they are required nonetheless. You'd assume that domestic intelligence agencies post Sep 11 have a new focus on pilots from trainee to airline captain. The spooks are the primary line of defence against future terrorist attacks.
Cynics may (self included) doubt the validity of recent arrests of terrorst suspects in Australia and the UK, but this is evidence of an active intelligence service. All we can do is hope their net is cast wide.
All the same, terror is involved, so we need to do something! Gotta be able to sleep at night.
In the case of air travel and use of aircraft as weapons the government has a responsibility to do everything reasonable to prevent an associated terrorist attack. IE, pax screening. An organised terrorist group will always find ways around these security mechanisms but they are required nonetheless. You'd assume that domestic intelligence agencies post Sep 11 have a new focus on pilots from trainee to airline captain. The spooks are the primary line of defence against future terrorist attacks.
Cynics may (self included) doubt the validity of recent arrests of terrorst suspects in Australia and the UK, but this is evidence of an active intelligence service. All we can do is hope their net is cast wide.
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The threat
Bushy, the same thing happened in bankstown in the early 80s.
It was wehen the tobagos had just arrived.
One young lad, was washed out of his course, broke into the hangar and took off in the aircraft...BXC if memory serves. He then aimed it at the hangar housing the rest of the fleet (about 10 I think) and crashed just short, taking out a number of aircraft along the way, including the Norman Gunston DC3.
Now back to the topic, I think the next attack will be in NY harbour, with a LPG tanker with an explosive device on it.
a mate in the industry reckons that a fair sized tanker will take out most of Manhatten and up to about 4-5km inland. It would make the Sep 11 attacks look like a picnic. sobering thought.
It was wehen the tobagos had just arrived.
One young lad, was washed out of his course, broke into the hangar and took off in the aircraft...BXC if memory serves. He then aimed it at the hangar housing the rest of the fleet (about 10 I think) and crashed just short, taking out a number of aircraft along the way, including the Norman Gunston DC3.
Now back to the topic, I think the next attack will be in NY harbour, with a LPG tanker with an explosive device on it.
a mate in the industry reckons that a fair sized tanker will take out most of Manhatten and up to about 4-5km inland. It would make the Sep 11 attacks look like a picnic. sobering thought.
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What I am trying to establish is, getting a single person to become an airline pilot is a fairly big venture. So, getting tens to hundreds of people to do so, is obviously going to be a far greater task and one that wouldn't seem feasible to anyone.
If there is ever to be terrorist pilots, there should have already been at least one incident during the past decades. Because there hasn't, I don't believe this will ever be a serious problem. Perhaps it will be in the future when the number of airlines and pilots, quadruples. If it does ever happen, the industry will simply introduce stricter protocols to make sure the right people are employed and such incidents don't occur.
At the moment I think it's a lot more likely that a group of terrorists would get their hands on a WMD than an ATPL and a 747.
If there is ever to be terrorist pilots, there should have already been at least one incident during the past decades. Because there hasn't, I don't believe this will ever be a serious problem. Perhaps it will be in the future when the number of airlines and pilots, quadruples. If it does ever happen, the industry will simply introduce stricter protocols to make sure the right people are employed and such incidents don't occur.
At the moment I think it's a lot more likely that a group of terrorists would get their hands on a WMD than an ATPL and a 747.
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There was
I read a report of a crash of a middle easterv airline where it was concluded by the enquiry that the co-pilot deliberately caused the aircraft to dive into the sea.
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The reason that politicians have no realistic answers is that there ARE NO REALISTIC ANSWERS.
You simply cannot prevent 9/11 attacks using "sleeper" pilots... although I think the risk is extremely small. The extremists aren't (completely) stupid, they know that the next big attack will be most successful if it uses a new delivery technique... an LPG tanker in a (relatively) confined space sounds about right.
They must laugh at us, implementing all this mindless security after the deed is done. In fact, you have to wonder if their real plan is to cause as much disruption as possible - that would be self-inflicted disruption.
If you want to stop them, you need to take a lesson from the country that lives with this threat every day - that would be Israel. In particular, take a lesson from El Al, who have successfully employed profiling for years, and don't seem to be victims of terrorism very often...
You simply cannot prevent 9/11 attacks using "sleeper" pilots... although I think the risk is extremely small. The extremists aren't (completely) stupid, they know that the next big attack will be most successful if it uses a new delivery technique... an LPG tanker in a (relatively) confined space sounds about right.
They must laugh at us, implementing all this mindless security after the deed is done. In fact, you have to wonder if their real plan is to cause as much disruption as possible - that would be self-inflicted disruption.
If you want to stop them, you need to take a lesson from the country that lives with this threat every day - that would be Israel. In particular, take a lesson from El Al, who have successfully employed profiling for years, and don't seem to be victims of terrorism very often...
Nunc est bibendum
In fact, you have to wonder if their real plan is to cause as much disruption as possible - that would be self-inflicted disruption.
Evertonian
Its not called terrorism for nothing.
Billions are spent on appeasing the punters who have trouble sleeping at night for what? To ease their terror. Most of us know a security breach waiting to happen at various locations around the country. We can report them, but how sure are we that the Govt. of the day has the funds or the inkling to do anything about it? We cannot be sure.
If we could be 100% certain that each & every attack will come from commercial jets, then lets lock those airports down tight. We can install Patriots or Rapiers around startegic areas & ensure that any aircraft out of normal control is targeted. Obviously, we can't. Equally obvious is that we are unable to anticipate all the schemes being developed by these individuals.
So, on our checklist we've (a) put on a good show of beefing security for the punters, (b) made a few arrests and maximised the potential if they weren't caught and (c) sent our finest across the globe chasing the masterminds. Excellent. Calm the punters, reduce the terror.
On the checklist that actually fixes the problem, we have a long way to go. That is a prickly one and I most certainly do not have a definitive answer, although I've got some idea...but...I think politics would stray back into the thread.
Reducing the terror is all we can realistically aim for at the moment. I recall seeing an interview with someone after the London bombings and was impressed with their summation. The chap said that they were wasting their time bombing London; "We've been through years of that with the IRA" (or words to that affect) If we can show resolve & recover our normal lives as best we can after such events, we go a long way to defeating their purpose. If we can express our anger, loss and determination to overcome, then the terror begins to diminish & their power weakens.
Billions are spent on appeasing the punters who have trouble sleeping at night for what? To ease their terror. Most of us know a security breach waiting to happen at various locations around the country. We can report them, but how sure are we that the Govt. of the day has the funds or the inkling to do anything about it? We cannot be sure.
If we could be 100% certain that each & every attack will come from commercial jets, then lets lock those airports down tight. We can install Patriots or Rapiers around startegic areas & ensure that any aircraft out of normal control is targeted. Obviously, we can't. Equally obvious is that we are unable to anticipate all the schemes being developed by these individuals.
So, on our checklist we've (a) put on a good show of beefing security for the punters, (b) made a few arrests and maximised the potential if they weren't caught and (c) sent our finest across the globe chasing the masterminds. Excellent. Calm the punters, reduce the terror.
On the checklist that actually fixes the problem, we have a long way to go. That is a prickly one and I most certainly do not have a definitive answer, although I've got some idea...but...I think politics would stray back into the thread.
Reducing the terror is all we can realistically aim for at the moment. I recall seeing an interview with someone after the London bombings and was impressed with their summation. The chap said that they were wasting their time bombing London; "We've been through years of that with the IRA" (or words to that affect) If we can show resolve & recover our normal lives as best we can after such events, we go a long way to defeating their purpose. If we can express our anger, loss and determination to overcome, then the terror begins to diminish & their power weakens.
Bushy, you are so correct. It occured in 1977 and one of the victims was Roger Connellan, son of Eddie founder of Connair. After the accident Eddie was a broken man and not long after he sold the airline to East West.
I spent a lot of time on the 'centre run' both as a F/O and in later years as a Captain. Ansett had F27 crew based in ASP at one stage and I knew some of our staff well and some of the aviation characters in the area.
BTW. The Ansett F27 hijack with Capt Ralph Young and F/O Wally Gowans at ASP on Melbourne Cup Day 1972 that resulted in the hijackers death is still a mystery in that the hijacker has not been identified. Last I heard he was still on ice at ASP.
I spent a lot of time on the 'centre run' both as a F/O and in later years as a Captain. Ansett had F27 crew based in ASP at one stage and I knew some of our staff well and some of the aviation characters in the area.
BTW. The Ansett F27 hijack with Capt Ralph Young and F/O Wally Gowans at ASP on Melbourne Cup Day 1972 that resulted in the hijackers death is still a mystery in that the hijacker has not been identified. Last I heard he was still on ice at ASP.
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Quote.....Terrorists are patient, you just have to look at the delay between the first bombing of the World Trade Centre and the next succesful destruction of it around 10 years later.
....thats why its nice to have a 40mm in the cockpit(here we go again
)
....thats why its nice to have a 40mm in the cockpit(here we go again
)
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middle easterv airline where it was concluded by the enquiry that the co-pilot deliberately caused the aircraft to dive into the sea.
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Dear Oh Dear! At least we haven't got into technical anti terror suggestions yet.
First of all it is necessary to distinguish between insanity and organised terrorism. Very few of us are worried about the former.
As for terrorism, the obvious cure is to deal with and eliminate the causes of terrorism in the first place, starting by giving the Israelis a good thumping and getting them to make peace with the Palestinians (or else).
That removes about half the rationale for terrorism directed against the west.
The other cause is the encroachment of western culture into the middle east - its weakening Islam and the Fundamentalists led by Bin Laden types are kicking back. The obvious answer to that problem is to push western influence into the middle east even faster. We know how to do this, its how we won the cold war.
But are we doing either of these things? Nope, we are simply creating more and more terrorists, witness the cells uncovered in Australia.
As for a pilot going through his training and then deciding to jihad a 747, I guess its possible, but ASIO are supposed to be looking at all of us very closely.
First of all it is necessary to distinguish between insanity and organised terrorism. Very few of us are worried about the former.
As for terrorism, the obvious cure is to deal with and eliminate the causes of terrorism in the first place, starting by giving the Israelis a good thumping and getting them to make peace with the Palestinians (or else).
That removes about half the rationale for terrorism directed against the west.
The other cause is the encroachment of western culture into the middle east - its weakening Islam and the Fundamentalists led by Bin Laden types are kicking back. The obvious answer to that problem is to push western influence into the middle east even faster. We know how to do this, its how we won the cold war.
But are we doing either of these things? Nope, we are simply creating more and more terrorists, witness the cells uncovered in Australia.
As for a pilot going through his training and then deciding to jihad a 747, I guess its possible, but ASIO are supposed to be looking at all of us very closely.