Pilot Recruiting
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Pilot Recruiting
I have been in this industry for 26 years now and and would be reluctant to reccomend it to other people now. Why? Do it through GA and pay $100K and then get paid $40/year with no assistance from the government, though almost every other proffession gets assistance such as the HECS scheme.
After a couple of years, you get into a airline that charges you another $35K for the privilege of working for them.
Then every 3-4 months you have some sort of major check such as sim/line/medical that can potentially end your expensive carreer!! Most baggage handlers earn far more than the F/O sitting up there in that nice shiney aircraft. Most Met bus drivers earn $60K/year with very little overtime. Young people often ask me what its like doing what I do and I tell them its the best job in the world but to get there now will require exteme dedication and finances, as compared to other jobs out there. Many senior pilots are pouring huge amounts of money into their super funds because come July-2007, they can retire with a huge untaxed super payout. As many as 350 senior Captains will retire this year which will be great for existing pilots wanting to move up the slippery pole. CASA issued about 960 CPL's last year and only 180 were to Australian national pilots. Almost every company is recuiting and with known orders for extra aircraft and new airlines starting such as Tiger and Skyairworld it is estimated that this will require another extra 400 Pilots!!
Unless entry conditions change, where will these people come from when it is now so competive from other trades and proffessions?
After a couple of years, you get into a airline that charges you another $35K for the privilege of working for them.
Then every 3-4 months you have some sort of major check such as sim/line/medical that can potentially end your expensive carreer!! Most baggage handlers earn far more than the F/O sitting up there in that nice shiney aircraft. Most Met bus drivers earn $60K/year with very little overtime. Young people often ask me what its like doing what I do and I tell them its the best job in the world but to get there now will require exteme dedication and finances, as compared to other jobs out there. Many senior pilots are pouring huge amounts of money into their super funds because come July-2007, they can retire with a huge untaxed super payout. As many as 350 senior Captains will retire this year which will be great for existing pilots wanting to move up the slippery pole. CASA issued about 960 CPL's last year and only 180 were to Australian national pilots. Almost every company is recuiting and with known orders for extra aircraft and new airlines starting such as Tiger and Skyairworld it is estimated that this will require another extra 400 Pilots!! Unless entry conditions change, where will these people come from when it is now so competive from other trades and proffessions?
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When I learnt to fly in the early 90's we had 11 people on my course. There are only 2 of us still flying today. Thats approx 20% success rate of staying in the industry. Back then there was no advertised jobs as there are today and it was near impossible to find that first job and progress up the ladder.
Maybe these days, with the rumoured small amount of licences being issued, it may not be a matter of a pilot shortage just a higher percentage of starters remaining in the game......Food for thought.
Maybe these days, with the rumoured small amount of licences being issued, it may not be a matter of a pilot shortage just a higher percentage of starters remaining in the game......Food for thought.
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So 2p2d......another lost to the mining boom??? Tell us more. Via PM if need be.
Oh, and well done for embracing the need for change so brazenly!
Cheers,
RFKB
Oh, and well done for embracing the need for change so brazenly!
Cheers,
RFKB
Sprucegoose
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Why is it that all the people on the board who advise AGAINST pursuing a career as a pilot, are already pilots of a couple of decades experience?
$100k? It cost me close to $50k 20 years ago, so it hasn't really gone up that much! Imagine if I had invested that money 20 years ago, but that's not what it's all about is it?
I only have one piece of advice for anyone starting out, make sure you have a back up plan, took me 20 years to work that one out, now I finally have a back up plan I probably don't need it, but it's always good to have just in case...
Last week I was offered a job that pays $120, 000 a year (on the job training)- only because of my highschool subjects I chose to study.
Hell, I'm gonna take it.
Hell, I'm gonna take it.
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Why? Do it through GA and pay $100K and then get paid $40/year with no assistance from the government, though almost every other proffession gets assistance such as the HECS scheme.
Sprucegoose
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then "hey presto", HECS schemes materialise. Watch this space.
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I find it ironic that when I used to have a passion for flying (bordering on obsession), I was always frustrated at my perceived lack of progression in the industry. When friends were moving on to fly turbo-props and jets, I was still languishing in GA, flying clapped out pistons (single and twin), desperately hoping to join my compatriots up in the flight levels - and consequently becoming even more disheartened at my lack of progress.
When I finally stopped giving a damn and treating it as "just another job," all of a sudden I found myself achieving all the things I'd been aiming for: Turbine experience, getting into a major airline, etc. The sad part is that after all the years of hard slog and putting up with industry crap, it's finally worn me down to the point where I now have what many would perceive to be the "dream job," but I have very little passion left for it. Granted, things could be a lot worse and I could be back in a factory or stacking shelves - but the simple fact is that if I walked away from aviation tomorrow, I don't think I'd miss it as much as I used to think I would. I don't dislike what I do, it's just not the holy grail I thought it would be - and perhaps the only reason I'm still in the game at all is because I've been doing it for so long now, I don't know what else I would do in its absence.
When I finally stopped giving a damn and treating it as "just another job," all of a sudden I found myself achieving all the things I'd been aiming for: Turbine experience, getting into a major airline, etc. The sad part is that after all the years of hard slog and putting up with industry crap, it's finally worn me down to the point where I now have what many would perceive to be the "dream job," but I have very little passion left for it. Granted, things could be a lot worse and I could be back in a factory or stacking shelves - but the simple fact is that if I walked away from aviation tomorrow, I don't think I'd miss it as much as I used to think I would. I don't dislike what I do, it's just not the holy grail I thought it would be - and perhaps the only reason I'm still in the game at all is because I've been doing it for so long now, I don't know what else I would do in its absence.
Grandpa Aerotart
I would suggest part of the problem now is the 'I want it all NOW' attitude of most young people today...and I say that as a parent.
When I started learning to fly 27 years ago I had no expectation of having a CPL inside of about 3 years...I think it took closer to 4 in the end. Because I didn't have a loan hanging over my head I was not terribly concerned about much of anything and could just enjoy life.
There were VERY few jobs around in the mid 80s so I went to PNG...got a job...bought a beat up old Suzuki jeep for next to nothing and flew my arse off for $16k gross + housing...and saved PNGK4k while still drinking my fair share of beer and generally having a great time...That 4k converted to AUD$7k+ in those days so paid cash for my Instrument rating (think it was 3.5k) and had a huge holiday and then went back to PNG with not a lot left over...first year Talair pay was slightly less than the previous years wages at Simbu aviation but it didn't really worry me too much...and the pay ramped up every year after that to something akin to a 60K package after about 18 mths when I went onto the Twin Otter and 6 mths later onto the Bandit. I spent best part of 9 years in GA and had a ball...even bought a little house back in Oz.
Loading yourselves up with debt and then expecting to get into an airline inside 4 yrs is an unreasonable expectation...in fact it is just plain stupid...being 'shattered' and leaving the industry bitter when it doesn't happen that way...and then slagging off the industry is just blame shifting. Another common trait of many young people.."It's not my fault because..."
Everything except the drive required.
Well what can i say
When I started learning to fly 27 years ago I had no expectation of having a CPL inside of about 3 years...I think it took closer to 4 in the end. Because I didn't have a loan hanging over my head I was not terribly concerned about much of anything and could just enjoy life.
There were VERY few jobs around in the mid 80s so I went to PNG...got a job...bought a beat up old Suzuki jeep for next to nothing and flew my arse off for $16k gross + housing...and saved PNGK4k while still drinking my fair share of beer and generally having a great time...That 4k converted to AUD$7k+ in those days so paid cash for my Instrument rating (think it was 3.5k) and had a huge holiday and then went back to PNG with not a lot left over...first year Talair pay was slightly less than the previous years wages at Simbu aviation but it didn't really worry me too much...and the pay ramped up every year after that to something akin to a 60K package after about 18 mths when I went onto the Twin Otter and 6 mths later onto the Bandit. I spent best part of 9 years in GA and had a ball...even bought a little house back in Oz.
Loading yourselves up with debt and then expecting to get into an airline inside 4 yrs is an unreasonable expectation...in fact it is just plain stupid...being 'shattered' and leaving the industry bitter when it doesn't happen that way...and then slagging off the industry is just blame shifting. Another common trait of many young people.."It's not my fault because..."
I have everything. Ie.. CPL. ME-CIR. ATPL subjects. Night VFR.
My parents have cut the money supply off.
Whoahh!
2p!ssed2drive,
Let me get this straight?
23 years old, 1200 hours, all the quals.
notwithstanding it has always been a tough game, the world is at your feet my friend.
If you cannot see that, then it truely is time for you to get out!
2p!ssed2drive,
Let me get this straight?
23 years old, 1200 hours, all the quals.
notwithstanding it has always been a tough game, the world is at your feet my friend.
If you cannot see that, then it truely is time for you to get out!
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I have been in this industry for 26 years now and and would be reluctant to reccomend it to other people now.
After a couple of years, you get into a airline that charges you another $35K for the privilege of working for them. Then every 3-4 months you have some sort of major check such as sim/line/medical that can potentially end your expensive carreer!
The sad part is that after all the years of hard slog and putting up with industry crap, it's finally worn me down to the point where I now have what many would perceive to be the "dream job," but I have very little passion left for it.
Mr Chimbu, I commend you on your great efforts. and I drove around in a beat up VW beatle!
this thread is about
reccomending it to other people
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Can I be rather contentious here?
I am a European pilot who. other than after 9/11 has always found work and see my career getting better year on year. I also have the right to live and work in Australia. For many years I have harboured a desire to live and work in your country but have now been forced to give up on the idea. Why?
What I have witnessed in Australia are out of date working practices generally and prejudice against anyone from overseas particulary in aviation.
It is like Europe 25 years ago!
Many of your countrymen have realised this and that is why there are so many ossie pilots working in Europe now.
I feel for anyone trying to get on in life and finding so many obstacles but maybe a good look at your own country's attitude and a realisation that we now live in 2007 not 1957 wouldn't go amiss!
Only then will conditions and opportunities inprove for everyone.
I am a European pilot who. other than after 9/11 has always found work and see my career getting better year on year. I also have the right to live and work in Australia. For many years I have harboured a desire to live and work in your country but have now been forced to give up on the idea. Why?
What I have witnessed in Australia are out of date working practices generally and prejudice against anyone from overseas particulary in aviation.
It is like Europe 25 years ago!
Many of your countrymen have realised this and that is why there are so many ossie pilots working in Europe now.
I feel for anyone trying to get on in life and finding so many obstacles but maybe a good look at your own country's attitude and a realisation that we now live in 2007 not 1957 wouldn't go amiss!
Only then will conditions and opportunities inprove for everyone.
Kelly
What you don't realise that in Australia the entry requirements for airlines are about 5 times higher than what they are in Europe and you do not walk out of a flying school into a 737. It would take you in the vicinity of 4 years after you have completed your training to be eligible for regional airlines flying Dash 8's or Brazs assuming that you got a job in year one. This time is often spent in remote areas flying old aircraft in very hot conditions. It is a tough game, 40 000' Thunderstorms, drum refuelling (if you're unlucky), hard nose bosses and clients, old aircraft etc etc
What the guys on this thread are talking about is how you spend a ridiculous amount of money for your license only to then go through hell to get a airline job. The sacrifices made, the money spent, some may argue is not worth it. Not to mention the effect of LCC on wages and conditions. In this country LCC are the end of your career not the first job you get out of flying school.
Not quite sure what you mean by outdated work practices?? Just because we have high requirements doesn't necessarily make them out dated.
I would be very suprised if you have even gone through half of the BS that is being discussed on this thread.
What you don't realise that in Australia the entry requirements for airlines are about 5 times higher than what they are in Europe and you do not walk out of a flying school into a 737. It would take you in the vicinity of 4 years after you have completed your training to be eligible for regional airlines flying Dash 8's or Brazs assuming that you got a job in year one. This time is often spent in remote areas flying old aircraft in very hot conditions. It is a tough game, 40 000' Thunderstorms, drum refuelling (if you're unlucky), hard nose bosses and clients, old aircraft etc etc
What the guys on this thread are talking about is how you spend a ridiculous amount of money for your license only to then go through hell to get a airline job. The sacrifices made, the money spent, some may argue is not worth it. Not to mention the effect of LCC on wages and conditions. In this country LCC are the end of your career not the first job you get out of flying school.
Not quite sure what you mean by outdated work practices?? Just because we have high requirements doesn't necessarily make them out dated.
I would be very suprised if you have even gone through half of the BS that is being discussed on this thread.
I guess you really need to examine your motivation for becoming a pilot in the first place.
Would I recommend this as a path/career to someone purely financially driven. No. I say that more on a reflection of initial outlay, ongoing costs and below standard wages generally across the board.
Would I recommend this as a path/career to someone that has a chance to have a passion as a career. Absolutely.
I started my training quite late in life, 30, and knew I'd be pretty well up against it from the start. I knew what state the industry was in, the generally below par conditions and the fact I was going to be away from all things comfortable for a long time. Once I was a part of it I don't think I could have stuck with it if I didn't genuinely love what I was doing, and keep that end goal in sight.
The end goal is quite different for lots of people. Mine was to end up in an airline. Four years after I gained my CPL I got that chance. I know that is a ridiculously short amount of time, and I am quite humbled to know that many aviators spent or are spending two or three times that amount of time in GA.
When I chose to chase this dream, I risked pretty well everything I had worked for up to that point. I left a well paid career, refinanced a unit i hardly owned, evaporated any financial security I had established for myself and farewelled all that were close to me......Can't say I'd recommend that to too many people!! But, my end goal was reached and I can't put into words what that means, and that is a feeling I would recommend to anyone.
Would I recommend this as a path/career to someone purely financially driven. No. I say that more on a reflection of initial outlay, ongoing costs and below standard wages generally across the board.
Would I recommend this as a path/career to someone that has a chance to have a passion as a career. Absolutely.
I started my training quite late in life, 30, and knew I'd be pretty well up against it from the start. I knew what state the industry was in, the generally below par conditions and the fact I was going to be away from all things comfortable for a long time. Once I was a part of it I don't think I could have stuck with it if I didn't genuinely love what I was doing, and keep that end goal in sight.
The end goal is quite different for lots of people. Mine was to end up in an airline. Four years after I gained my CPL I got that chance. I know that is a ridiculously short amount of time, and I am quite humbled to know that many aviators spent or are spending two or three times that amount of time in GA.
When I chose to chase this dream, I risked pretty well everything I had worked for up to that point. I left a well paid career, refinanced a unit i hardly owned, evaporated any financial security I had established for myself and farewelled all that were close to me......Can't say I'd recommend that to too many people!! But, my end goal was reached and I can't put into words what that means, and that is a feeling I would recommend to anyone.
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When I started in the very early 90's I funded myself(no parents funding me). I was the only one not getting everything paid for!(just a bank loan guarantor). Yes up until 5 years ago 100K was the total all up bill. It took 10 years to get to the majors. Yes its worth it in the end & my finances are starting to overtake others(finally). People I know who started for the money never made it. You must be clever, passionate & aggressive with your career path to make it. As someone previously said if mummy & daddy stop the funds, clearly flying isn't for you. I worked as a cabbie for two years during my full time flying training(ie 6 hrs a day after work) to survive when I was 19. Unfortunately generation 'Y' does have a 'I want it now' attitude. Also a lot of young people today don't understand what doing it 'hard' is really about. Its more than moving out of home. The really motivated & successful will do it tough but they usually do make it in the end.
Its as hard today as it was 20 yrs ago(just for slightly different reasons)
Just my 2 cents worth.
Its as hard today as it was 20 yrs ago(just for slightly different reasons)
Just my 2 cents worth.
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return to the motherland and beyond
I feel for anyone trying to get on in life and finding so many obstacles but maybe a good look at your own country's attitude and a realisation that we now live in 2007 not 1957 wouldn't go amiss!
UK ancestory link HERE
When I chose to chase this dream, I risked pretty well everything I had worked for up to that point. I left a well paid career, refinanced a unit i hardly owned, evaporated any financial security I had established for myself and farewelled all that were close to me......
Last edited by freddyKrueger; 14th Feb 2007 at 20:18.