SYD based 777 airline
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2001
Posts: 149
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
SYD based 777 airline
The latest Australian Aviation has a short article about a new start SYD based operation planning to fly the Pacific with 777-200LR's from 2008.
Surprisingly quiet here for such a subject - anyone heard anything? Is this Virgin in disguise or someone trying to cut their grass? Any suggestions on how they will overcome ETOPS restrictions?
The aircraft might have 180 mins but it would be a turn up for the books if CASA approved more than 90 mins first up for a new operator and new type in country. The B777 might be far more economical than an A340, but it will be interesting to see how a new start plans to overcome ETOPS.
Surprisingly quiet here for such a subject - anyone heard anything? Is this Virgin in disguise or someone trying to cut their grass? Any suggestions on how they will overcome ETOPS restrictions?
The aircraft might have 180 mins but it would be a turn up for the books if CASA approved more than 90 mins first up for a new operator and new type in country. The B777 might be far more economical than an A340, but it will be interesting to see how a new start plans to overcome ETOPS.
Last edited by sandpit; 13th Feb 2007 at 00:59.
The way a new A330 operator in Oz was recently signed off ETOPS I would say the precedence has been set and a new entrant should by rights be afforded the same clear run.
Pandora's box is well and truely open, may as well bring on the new entrants and we'll get closer to answering the question of what moral and engagement is worth to a company.
Sorry I missed the article, to whom does one apply?
Pandora's box is well and truely open, may as well bring on the new entrants and we'll get closer to answering the question of what moral and engagement is worth to a company.
Sorry I missed the article, to whom does one apply?
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2001
Posts: 149
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The recent new A330 operator would probably have got some credits from CASA because the type was operated within the same group and presumably with the same standards (no howling from QF guys!) from maintenance and flight ops. They were also an established operator.
My understanding was that a new operator would not be able to show that experience and so would be up against it. I think they would need 180 mins to do the Pacific.
EPIRB, I thought the doing away with ETOPS was to apply similar restrictions to 3 & 4 engined aircraft to recognise ultra long haul and remote area considerations (e.g. diversions over the arctic/antarctic etc.) rather than a relaxation of twin requirements. I might have that wrong though.
My understanding was that a new operator would not be able to show that experience and so would be up against it. I think they would need 180 mins to do the Pacific.
EPIRB, I thought the doing away with ETOPS was to apply similar restrictions to 3 & 4 engined aircraft to recognise ultra long haul and remote area considerations (e.g. diversions over the arctic/antarctic etc.) rather than a relaxation of twin requirements. I might have that wrong though.
Join Date: May 2004
Location: australia
Posts: 100
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I believe that sandie is right.. A name change to EROPS and a revised 3 and 4 engine participation.
I had heard it was brought on because of the relative lack of redundancy in the A340 systems.
I had heard it was brought on because of the relative lack of redundancy in the A340 systems.
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: The Future
Posts: 203
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I love this subject. So, jetstar Int gets 180 min etops, with no prior type operating experience, operating A330s from QF, however, none of the QF guys were allowed to go across and help with the startup operation because they would "Polute the Culture"! 180 minutes etops approval on startup.
The amazing comparison is Australian Airlines operating a type with QF pilots, QF engineering on a type with 20yrs ETOPS operating reliability, the only difference was the orange paint and friendly cabin crew. They were only entitled to 120 minutes? Am I the only one that suspects something is wrong with a system that allows jetstar with no operating history on a type with very recent history of dual engine failures to automatically obtain 180 minutes? At the very least there has been a mistake, at the very worst, money has greased the right palms! I would welcome anyone with evidence to prove me wrong to put my mind at ease. If not, what course of action can be taken to get this "annomoly" in aviation regulation investigated?
If the rules have changed, then so be it. This new 777 startup will have no problems obtaining 180 min approval.
The amazing comparison is Australian Airlines operating a type with QF pilots, QF engineering on a type with 20yrs ETOPS operating reliability, the only difference was the orange paint and friendly cabin crew. They were only entitled to 120 minutes? Am I the only one that suspects something is wrong with a system that allows jetstar with no operating history on a type with very recent history of dual engine failures to automatically obtain 180 minutes? At the very least there has been a mistake, at the very worst, money has greased the right palms! I would welcome anyone with evidence to prove me wrong to put my mind at ease. If not, what course of action can be taken to get this "annomoly" in aviation regulation investigated?
If the rules have changed, then so be it. This new 777 startup will have no problems obtaining 180 min approval.
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Sydney Australia
Posts: 55
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Jet* International ETOPS
For ELROY JETSON
......and it is still QF Engineering that is providing the engineering support for Jet* International operations. You will never see a Jet* LAME near those planes and there is a growing concensus amongst Jet* Domestic LAMEs that QF Engineering will get the gig when the 787 arrives. There is not the manpower available, nor does there appear to be any planning or training for domestic to do the job.
......and it is still QF Engineering that is providing the engineering support for Jet* International operations. You will never see a Jet* LAME near those planes and there is a growing concensus amongst Jet* Domestic LAMEs that QF Engineering will get the gig when the 787 arrives. There is not the manpower available, nor does there appear to be any planning or training for domestic to do the job.
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: The Future
Posts: 203
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thank you Mobi Lame, that is interesting, but the QF engineers had 2 decades of experience maintaining the 76s before AO got their first "Ochre Whale", their sum total of experience on the 330 is what? 4 years? 5 at best? Glad the mainline boys are still fixing them, because the mainline pilots sure as hell arent allowed to fly them. Contract pilots to send them for a paint job while mainline drivers are sitting around on full pay and being asked to take leave without pay? That sort of wastage is criminal, and someone should be accountable to the shareholders for wasteful petty actions like that.
I sincerely hope mainline guys can continue to spin spanners on the 330. Remember the 330 is a stop gap measure for jetstar,until the 78 arrives, then the 330s are earmarked to go back to mainline, so it makes sense for mainline to continue to fix them. If you are watching to see who maintains the 330, you are watching the wrong game. As you eluded to, the real game to be monitoring is who is getting the first 787 engineering courses. With the first 10 going to jetstar, therefore operated on the jetstar AOC, I know where my money is wagered. Wish it was different though.
I sincerely hope mainline guys can continue to spin spanners on the 330. Remember the 330 is a stop gap measure for jetstar,until the 78 arrives, then the 330s are earmarked to go back to mainline, so it makes sense for mainline to continue to fix them. If you are watching to see who maintains the 330, you are watching the wrong game. As you eluded to, the real game to be monitoring is who is getting the first 787 engineering courses. With the first 10 going to jetstar, therefore operated on the jetstar AOC, I know where my money is wagered. Wish it was different though.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2001
Posts: 149
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think the reason Jetstar has 180 mins is probably because of QF engineering i.e. there was no percieved change in the maintenance procedures and so the reliability should be the same as flown by QF and so 180 minutes out of the box is OK. Still think it unlikely a new start will get the same consideration as they won't have this going for them.
And who are they anyway????????
And who are they anyway????????
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Where I'm not alarmed
Posts: 454
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Contract pilots to send them for a paint job while mainline drivers are sitting around on full pay and being asked to take leave without pay? That sort of wastage is criminal, and someone should be accountable to the shareholders for wasteful petty actions like that
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Dubai
Posts: 46
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This will bring a big smile to the many Aussie and Kiwi 777 pilots desperate to leave the sandpit. Now I know why so many Antipodean Airbus drivers in Emirates have bid to go onto the 777 
Lert....
It IS true... At present most QF A330 pilots are being assigned (ie being forced to take) up to four weeks leave, both annual and long-service, every eight weeks; even next year's if one has insufficient now. The 'oversupply' pilots on 'blank' rosters which are intended to cover standby and sickness etc often work LESS than half of their base pay hours and almost never get higher than base pay. QF don't want to demote or train to other types to fill gaps because that would be too expensive! Add to that the fact that many are also flying only single-sectors every 30-35 days for recency and you get the picture. Meanwhile, a wholly-owned subsidiary is transferring/employing (ie paying) other pilots who'll be re-trained again in a couple of years onto 787s.
This seems to be a contrived circumstance driven by industrial ideology; surely it can't be logic!!! Then again, if they're such astute managers, then they obviously have decided that in the long run it's a good plan.
This seems to be a contrived circumstance driven by industrial ideology; surely it can't be logic!!! Then again, if they're such astute managers, then they obviously have decided that in the long run it's a good plan.
Return to work?
In the long run Jetsbest, how do they expect to motivate us to give a company rats after being treated like sh!t for their little games creating personal wealth.
Answer, they don't care, they'll be long gone by then.
Answer, they don't care, they'll be long gone by then.
