QL to QF's new recruitment process
Single pilot operations and multicrew ops are light years apart in many, many aspects.
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Hiya,
Just as an example, I did my Qlink line training a while ago. When I joined I had had around 5500 hours, including a year as a Dash8 FO with a previous employer.
Landing an aeroplane is, as we know, only a fraction of the skills required to operate a flight safely and smoothly - but I think landing might be an indicator of the new pilots grip of the finer points of flying that particular type.
Boy did I smack a few of those 50 pax loads on the deck. Of course I'm not the best pilot in the world and at times I had to rely on experience getting me out of trouble. But it was my experience that stopped tricky things from getting ugly.
What I'm trying to say is I just don't think the right seat of a Dash is the place to be learning from your mistakes. It seems to me to be one of the hardest planes I have flown to keep on a stable approach profile and land consistantly smoothly.
Just as an example, I did my Qlink line training a while ago. When I joined I had had around 5500 hours, including a year as a Dash8 FO with a previous employer.
Landing an aeroplane is, as we know, only a fraction of the skills required to operate a flight safely and smoothly - but I think landing might be an indicator of the new pilots grip of the finer points of flying that particular type.
Boy did I smack a few of those 50 pax loads on the deck. Of course I'm not the best pilot in the world and at times I had to rely on experience getting me out of trouble. But it was my experience that stopped tricky things from getting ugly.
What I'm trying to say is I just don't think the right seat of a Dash is the place to be learning from your mistakes. It seems to me to be one of the hardest planes I have flown to keep on a stable approach profile and land consistantly smoothly.
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Interesting.
1. The way things are at the moment in the training department, they might be hard pushed to find anyone (apart from checkies) willing to train them. Especially when they are actively trying to stop people leaving, even to outside jobs (we know whose making the phone calls to Dragon Cathay etc). Market forces, not the SNAKE will determine their futures.
2. This'll roll on through to the line pilots. The cadets will be the highest paid radio operators in the group (not their fault but a matter of principle).
Time to offer some real career prospects to your regional staff QF
Last one out turn the lights off please 
1. The way things are at the moment in the training department, they might be hard pushed to find anyone (apart from checkies) willing to train them. Especially when they are actively trying to stop people leaving, even to outside jobs (we know whose making the phone calls to Dragon Cathay etc). Market forces, not the SNAKE will determine their futures.
2. This'll roll on through to the line pilots. The cadets will be the highest paid radio operators in the group (not their fault but a matter of principle).
Time to offer some real career prospects to your regional staff QF
Last one out turn the lights off please
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Am I late?
I had marked the quarterly cadet bashing on my calendar but it seems to have come early....
While on this issue I can appreciate that there are some very strong feelings, the crux of the majority of these posts is: it's not fair. I have had to bide my time and do it the hard way, so should they. In an ideal world everyone would have to, sadly the world is not fair. The best thing to do is learn to accept this fact.
Taking my flying cap off momentarily; I had to work hard in the occupations that preceded my flying career including some long hours, unpaid overtime, rejected leave and additional work to be rewarded with some new, fresh university graduate given a supervisors role over the top of me. While this initially incensed me, eventually we forged a good working relationship and after he cut his teeth in this new role he turned out to be (much to my disgust) an effective team player that performed in his job well. As much as it pains me to say it, had the business put up some barriers to his initial employment he might have ended up working for a competitor. It was apparent to me that although his experience basket was not as volumous as mine, his was a different shape with a few things in it that I had not seen.
Back to the issue at hand: I have had the pleasure of "babying" (if you like) a few relatively inexperienced pilots in my time. The same pilots that have jumped the queue and 'took the seat of someone else'. I don't begrudge them of the choices that they or the company have made, indeed should that have been an option for me I probably would have taken it. They struggle at first. I'm sorry to disappoint but everybody that is new to a type struggles at first and needs to be carried. The number of hours is not an accurate indicator of how quickly one will find their feet either(or undercarriage as previously suggested). Some very experienced folk simply can't get their head around the dimensions and characteristics of the new type while other less experienced pilots seem to fly like they were born in the thing (and some also look that way).
Once new pilots start becoming part of the team, I must admit it is usually the pilots with a few hours under their belt that offer well thought out ideas and other useful tidbits. However I am constantly reminded that though the lower time pilots might not have the same sized experience basket, it really is shaped differently. Perhaps it was the agility of their minds or just some thinking outside the box but a few have presented some alternate solutions to problems that I probably would have reached, eventually. And as all pilots new to type continue to learn, they become more effective team members in that setting. That should be extended to all pilots regardless of previous experience.
To those new cadets going to QL, good luck, it will be hard work but know that not every captain will be out there to get you as previously suggested. To the QL pilots that have bargained with QF to change the entry policy into mainline, good luck to you also but understand that you are sitting in the seat of some one who has just as much experience as you and HAS jumped through all the hoops (tongue wedged firmly in cheek).
Yet another storm in a tea cup, put it to bed.
Watching,
I
While on this issue I can appreciate that there are some very strong feelings, the crux of the majority of these posts is: it's not fair. I have had to bide my time and do it the hard way, so should they. In an ideal world everyone would have to, sadly the world is not fair. The best thing to do is learn to accept this fact.
Taking my flying cap off momentarily; I had to work hard in the occupations that preceded my flying career including some long hours, unpaid overtime, rejected leave and additional work to be rewarded with some new, fresh university graduate given a supervisors role over the top of me. While this initially incensed me, eventually we forged a good working relationship and after he cut his teeth in this new role he turned out to be (much to my disgust) an effective team player that performed in his job well. As much as it pains me to say it, had the business put up some barriers to his initial employment he might have ended up working for a competitor. It was apparent to me that although his experience basket was not as volumous as mine, his was a different shape with a few things in it that I had not seen.
Back to the issue at hand: I have had the pleasure of "babying" (if you like) a few relatively inexperienced pilots in my time. The same pilots that have jumped the queue and 'took the seat of someone else'. I don't begrudge them of the choices that they or the company have made, indeed should that have been an option for me I probably would have taken it. They struggle at first. I'm sorry to disappoint but everybody that is new to a type struggles at first and needs to be carried. The number of hours is not an accurate indicator of how quickly one will find their feet either(or undercarriage as previously suggested). Some very experienced folk simply can't get their head around the dimensions and characteristics of the new type while other less experienced pilots seem to fly like they were born in the thing (and some also look that way).
Once new pilots start becoming part of the team, I must admit it is usually the pilots with a few hours under their belt that offer well thought out ideas and other useful tidbits. However I am constantly reminded that though the lower time pilots might not have the same sized experience basket, it really is shaped differently. Perhaps it was the agility of their minds or just some thinking outside the box but a few have presented some alternate solutions to problems that I probably would have reached, eventually. And as all pilots new to type continue to learn, they become more effective team members in that setting. That should be extended to all pilots regardless of previous experience.
To those new cadets going to QL, good luck, it will be hard work but know that not every captain will be out there to get you as previously suggested. To the QL pilots that have bargained with QF to change the entry policy into mainline, good luck to you also but understand that you are sitting in the seat of some one who has just as much experience as you and HAS jumped through all the hoops (tongue wedged firmly in cheek).
Yet another storm in a tea cup, put it to bed.
Watching,
I
Thread Starter
Well I had no intention of this thread turning into a cadet bashing.
It seems a few of you haven't seen the latest FAM ammendment for advisory calls. If a thread drifts out of tolerance, the standard call is 'keyboard' and the response is 'checked' or 'get stuffed'
.
Good luck to all
.
It seems a few of you haven't seen the latest FAM ammendment for advisory calls. If a thread drifts out of tolerance, the standard call is 'keyboard' and the response is 'checked' or 'get stuffed'
.Good luck to all
.
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badboiblu...
'Why not just let them be a F/O on the 737 or S/O on the 747? Or are they thinking that wouldn't be safe?"
They already are on 737. (Wish i was clever enough to work out how to show quotes on this forum)
'Why not just let them be a F/O on the 737 or S/O on the 747? Or are they thinking that wouldn't be safe?"
They already are on 737. (Wish i was clever enough to work out how to show quotes on this forum)
Cadets on the 737 have progressed through the QF system and do not have 200 hours. They would have several thousand, but not much more than 100 PIC.
Interestingly enough after these guys started get checked out on the 737 a new requirement came out that those with minimal experience to receive compulsory extra training.
It appears that captains had a few "scares" with the cadets. SO the extra training was just to give the cadets a bit more exposure. The cadets then, had no experience other than training aircraft plus probably 767 or 747 SO time.
I agree with what was written earlier, as long as everything goes according to plan ultra low time pilots are OK it just when it's all goes pear shaped that the difference starts to show.
Interestingly enough after these guys started get checked out on the 737 a new requirement came out that those with minimal experience to receive compulsory extra training.
It appears that captains had a few "scares" with the cadets. SO the extra training was just to give the cadets a bit more exposure. The cadets then, had no experience other than training aircraft plus probably 767 or 747 SO time.
I agree with what was written earlier, as long as everything goes according to plan ultra low time pilots are OK it just when it's all goes pear shaped that the difference starts to show.
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WHO CARES WHAT TYPE OF PILOT CADETS ARE?????
THE FACT IS THEY ARE GRASS CUTTERS. STEALING JOBS THAT WE HAVE WORKED HARD FOR!!!!
SPENDING YEARS IN THE BUSH, WITH LITTLE TO NO MONEY, FOR SOME SPOILT BRAT TO WALK RIGHT IN LEAVING US STUCK WHERE IM SURE NONE OF US WANT TO BE.
SO I REAKON THEY DESERVE SLACK FROM QL/QF PILOTS, THEY NEED TO MAKE UP FOR SOME “HARD YEARS”
IM SURE NONE HAVE ANY SENSE OF GRATITUDE FOR WHAT THEY HAVE SINCE NONE HAVE COME FROM THE MOST REMOTE PLACE IN AUSTRALIA, WHERE THEY WERE FLYING CLAPPED OUT AIRCRAFT, AND SITTING ALL DAY IN 40DEGREE HEAT IN A DOG INFESTED COMMUNITY, FAMILY/FRIENDS 1000's OF MILES AWAY, BROKEN RELATIONSHIPS ALL FOR WHAT?????????
HINT = ONE OF THOSE JOBS
WHAT A JOKE
THE FACT IS THEY ARE GRASS CUTTERS. STEALING JOBS THAT WE HAVE WORKED HARD FOR!!!!
SPENDING YEARS IN THE BUSH, WITH LITTLE TO NO MONEY, FOR SOME SPOILT BRAT TO WALK RIGHT IN LEAVING US STUCK WHERE IM SURE NONE OF US WANT TO BE.
SO I REAKON THEY DESERVE SLACK FROM QL/QF PILOTS, THEY NEED TO MAKE UP FOR SOME “HARD YEARS”
IM SURE NONE HAVE ANY SENSE OF GRATITUDE FOR WHAT THEY HAVE SINCE NONE HAVE COME FROM THE MOST REMOTE PLACE IN AUSTRALIA, WHERE THEY WERE FLYING CLAPPED OUT AIRCRAFT, AND SITTING ALL DAY IN 40DEGREE HEAT IN A DOG INFESTED COMMUNITY, FAMILY/FRIENDS 1000's OF MILES AWAY, BROKEN RELATIONSHIPS ALL FOR WHAT?????????
HINT = ONE OF THOSE JOBS
WHAT A JOKE
Last edited by lahso29; 22nd Jan 2007 at 02:09.
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No matter how you dress it up cadets are a handfull. Its not " cadet bashing " its just the way of the world. Touchy feely modern day takes on common sense issues tend to leave the obvious often unsaid. Id tend to think that the 25 year old who has been in GA for years,existing in **** holes away from the luxuries of family and friends will always have the repect of most in the industry. Imagine the feeling after years and years at the coal face, doing it right on a daily basis, when you read some of the stuff on this thread.
You only have to take a look on Qrewroom to get an insight as to the cadet mind.
The absolute shame of modern day flying is that it has become strictly for the well healed. What a disaster for Australian aviation. My hat goes off to the many boys and girls flying every day and night going in and out of the many other ports in this country.
Once again I refer you to the Perth incident.
DM
You only have to take a look on Qrewroom to get an insight as to the cadet mind.
The absolute shame of modern day flying is that it has become strictly for the well healed. What a disaster for Australian aviation. My hat goes off to the many boys and girls flying every day and night going in and out of the many other ports in this country.
Once again I refer you to the Perth incident.
DM
So do the cadets have to cough up $10k for the endorsement or is it a freebie?
And if they do have to pay, do they have a choice about going to QL, or are they just told "Son you're going to work for QL and it will cost you $10k".
And if they do have to pay, do they have a choice about going to QL, or are they just told "Son you're going to work for QL and it will cost you $10k".
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I have nothing against cadets in general, I am sure that with hard work most may one day develop into relatively normal people. But the reality is that they are taking slots from people who have done the hard yards and are thus are more deserving. In effect they are cheating the system and I find the whole set up morally bankrupt.
I think a fairer solution would be an industry wide seniority system based on the day your CPL was issued. This would need to be moderated with some kind of yardyardometer system that could accelerate your progression, with factors such as stench and dirtiness of you place of work, average daytime shade temperatures, dodginess of employer, isolation and maybe even a straydog visibilty factor included. This would all be logged, factored and acknowledged and make sure everything was taken into account and that we could compare apples with apples. This would ensure that there could be no cheating the system.
Then all that would be needed would be some kind of industrywide job progression plan that made sure everyone got to experience the worst of the worst before they progressed to better jobs, eventually leading to an airline position.
Of course there would need to be an age restriction on when you could complete your CPL to ensure QF Captains little sons don't cheat the system by doing theirs earlier than anyone else and thus get an unfair advantage.
I really think this would work. I am also sick of the silence regarding this issue and believe we need a more regular robust discussion on cadetships, cadets, and how bad they really are. Until this issue is sorted I firmly recommend we somehow turn every even closely related post into a cadet related one.
I think a fairer solution would be an industry wide seniority system based on the day your CPL was issued. This would need to be moderated with some kind of yardyardometer system that could accelerate your progression, with factors such as stench and dirtiness of you place of work, average daytime shade temperatures, dodginess of employer, isolation and maybe even a straydog visibilty factor included. This would all be logged, factored and acknowledged and make sure everything was taken into account and that we could compare apples with apples. This would ensure that there could be no cheating the system.
Then all that would be needed would be some kind of industrywide job progression plan that made sure everyone got to experience the worst of the worst before they progressed to better jobs, eventually leading to an airline position.
Of course there would need to be an age restriction on when you could complete your CPL to ensure QF Captains little sons don't cheat the system by doing theirs earlier than anyone else and thus get an unfair advantage.
I really think this would work. I am also sick of the silence regarding this issue and believe we need a more regular robust discussion on cadetships, cadets, and how bad they really are. Until this issue is sorted I firmly recommend we somehow turn every even closely related post into a cadet related one.
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Curious
I am genuinely curious about the timing of this move. Given that this has been mooted since 1992, and the level of hostility it would generate, why now?
The first law of aviation suggests management is ever only looking out for its own interest. The second law says delay the decision until something is about to break.
Some possible reasons that come to mind.
* Genuine desire to give cadets experience. This could be gained externally however, although management lack control.
* Lack of applicants off the street to QL.
* Less likely to leave to greener pastures than current FO's as they will have a QF seniority slot.
* Gaining the required experience to go straight into the RH seat. But where? Mainline/ J*/ Jetconnect/ Strike breakers?
I'm sure there are many others.
The sweetner is the the "progression" to mainline for current QL crew. I think most can see through this ploy as window dressing.
Just curious about the bigger picture...
The first law of aviation suggests management is ever only looking out for its own interest. The second law says delay the decision until something is about to break.
Some possible reasons that come to mind.
* Genuine desire to give cadets experience. This could be gained externally however, although management lack control.
* Lack of applicants off the street to QL.
* Less likely to leave to greener pastures than current FO's as they will have a QF seniority slot.
* Gaining the required experience to go straight into the RH seat. But where? Mainline/ J*/ Jetconnect/ Strike breakers?
I'm sure there are many others.
The sweetner is the the "progression" to mainline for current QL crew. I think most can see through this ploy as window dressing.
Just curious about the bigger picture...
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My dad says..
Freddy's proposition may not be too far off the mark
From the Cabin Crew forum Qantas iv thread "oho" posts in part:
"Long Haul -v- Short Haul - Nope. Think one division - Mid Haul! 737's are probably going to go to regional."
Freddy's proposition may not be too far off the mark
From the Cabin Crew forum Qantas iv thread "oho" posts in part:
"Long Haul -v- Short Haul - Nope. Think one division - Mid Haul! 737's are probably going to go to regional."
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Does anyone know where the cadets will sit on the QL totem pole? Will they get a position relitave to their start date with QL or is it back dated to the begining of the training for the cadetship?
bulla
bulla
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ok ok ok if they really need some industry experience.
How about.......
2 years of polishing the pilots shoes as they board?
or
2 years of qf jepp amendments?
or
2 years of picking the pilots up from home and driving them to work followed by driving them home at the end of duty?
all on a cusual ga award of course.
How about.......
2 years of polishing the pilots shoes as they board?
or
2 years of qf jepp amendments?
or
2 years of picking the pilots up from home and driving them to work followed by driving them home at the end of duty?
all on a cusual ga award of course.
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Obscene
The whole business of conning thousands of young people into spending huge ammounts of time and money getting qualifications and experience in GA so they can get an airline job is just obscene.
Many, many of them drop out after a few years, and many get the GA experience and get no further. Some make it. I have seen some of GA's failures make it into major airlines.
It never ceases to amaze me that supposedly intelligent people, capable of getting licences and ratings, and doing difficult work for years did not have the forethought to research the situation before they started.
Whenever flying schools get short of work they talk to journalists about the "pilot shortage" thats happening.
An intelligent, capable person I know, made it home to the coastal city for XMAS, having spent most of the previous year travelling from one side of the country to the other, looking for that first flying job. Unsucessfully. Not unusual.
This is slowly changing a little, due to the improvement in modern communications. The surplus is now mainly low time people. They become aware of the real situation faster now.
I hope there is a boost in recruiting soon, so some of these pilots can get where they want to go,followed by the introduction of the MCPL, and some sort of pretraining assessment and agreement with potential employers. That way flying training may bcome a reasonable investment.
I predicted some time ago that this obscene lottery was destroying GA, and this rot would also invade the major airlines. It appears to be happening.
Tjhis obscene lottery is Australia's shame.
Many, many of them drop out after a few years, and many get the GA experience and get no further. Some make it. I have seen some of GA's failures make it into major airlines.
It never ceases to amaze me that supposedly intelligent people, capable of getting licences and ratings, and doing difficult work for years did not have the forethought to research the situation before they started.
Whenever flying schools get short of work they talk to journalists about the "pilot shortage" thats happening.
An intelligent, capable person I know, made it home to the coastal city for XMAS, having spent most of the previous year travelling from one side of the country to the other, looking for that first flying job. Unsucessfully. Not unusual.
This is slowly changing a little, due to the improvement in modern communications. The surplus is now mainly low time people. They become aware of the real situation faster now.
I hope there is a boost in recruiting soon, so some of these pilots can get where they want to go,followed by the introduction of the MCPL, and some sort of pretraining assessment and agreement with potential employers. That way flying training may bcome a reasonable investment.
I predicted some time ago that this obscene lottery was destroying GA, and this rot would also invade the major airlines. It appears to be happening.
Tjhis obscene lottery is Australia's shame.