Passengers were never in any danger
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It seems common that crew of large aircraft do not know their tyres are falling apart becoming defective on take off.
The crew would become aware of a mishap should the occurrence create a non normal situation with another system. However their actions would only be reactive to the system problem without knowing the cause. Is it wise to fly an aircraft with a system fault that you cannot determine the cause of?
What if the problem occurred at night or in bad vis and the tower was unable to inform the crew. Would the problem lay dormant, if retraction was normal, until finals at the other end.
In the end its all about safety and the best option. Is safety jeopardised in any way by tyres becoming defective? Some would say yes others no.
What does the Qantas SOPs say for such an occurrence. Is it clear cut return or go, or is an involved decision process required where all the information is considered. The only problem with that is the crew won't know the extent of the damage. Is that a good way to fly?
The crew would become aware of a mishap should the occurrence create a non normal situation with another system. However their actions would only be reactive to the system problem without knowing the cause. Is it wise to fly an aircraft with a system fault that you cannot determine the cause of?
What if the problem occurred at night or in bad vis and the tower was unable to inform the crew. Would the problem lay dormant, if retraction was normal, until finals at the other end.
In the end its all about safety and the best option. Is safety jeopardised in any way by tyres becoming defective? Some would say yes others no.
What does the Qantas SOPs say for such an occurrence. Is it clear cut return or go, or is an involved decision process required where all the information is considered. The only problem with that is the crew won't know the extent of the damage. Is that a good way to fly?
Thread Starter
While tyre burst incidents can be potentially very serious, in the Singapore incident the aircraft crew was not aware of any damage to the aircraft as a result of the loss of one of its 18 tyres on take-off until about 6 hours into the flight to Frankfurt when a problem with the number 4 hydraulic system became apparent. The crew managed the problem and landed safely in Frankfurt where the damage to the aircraft wing-to-aircraft body fairing (fibreglass non-structural) outer skin was seen. Repairs were made and appropriate safety authorities notified.
Myself, and other posters, were concerned that the flight was knowingly allowed to continue on without an assessment of the damage ... as the only "reported" assessment was Geoff Dixon's 20/20 hindsight at the other end. However, as in this case, if you are not aware of any damage, you can't be expected to assess it.
golfjet744 I take your point. But as an outsider, without knowledge of the internal politics, the continual Jetstar bashing appears to be a symptom of an unlevel playing field. But, that's life and we all have to make our travelling decisions based on our own best judgement.
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News:
From your post, I am assuming you are not a pilot.
Let me put it in this basic way - others may be able to give more details about the 747 - but basically, this is how it works.
1. Aeroplanes are machines made up of numerous parts, in numerous sub systems, of which there are multiples of most of these subsystems (engines/electric/hydraulics/avionics etc).
2. Parts often fail in these systems, being machines.
3. The pilots are 'experts' on the machine they have THEIR arse strapped to, and understand the inter-relationship between the sub-systems, the ramifications of the failure of one or more of them, (whether they know the cause of it working or not) and then use the company SOP's as a guide (which may or may not apply to every scenario or failure) and then use their wisdom, nouse, gut feeling or rat-cunning that they have garnered from operating experience and experience on type, to look at all the options and how it affects the flight, draw a conclusion from the FACTS THAT ARE AVAILABLE TO THEM, and to make a decision about whether it is safe, legal or indeed prudent, to continue with the flight.
4. It is generally, not in the pilot's best interest to continue flight with an 'unsafe aircraft', to risk his/her arse, that is strapped to the same machine as the pax.
From your post, I am assuming you are not a pilot.
Let me put it in this basic way - others may be able to give more details about the 747 - but basically, this is how it works.
1. Aeroplanes are machines made up of numerous parts, in numerous sub systems, of which there are multiples of most of these subsystems (engines/electric/hydraulics/avionics etc).
2. Parts often fail in these systems, being machines.
3. The pilots are 'experts' on the machine they have THEIR arse strapped to, and understand the inter-relationship between the sub-systems, the ramifications of the failure of one or more of them, (whether they know the cause of it working or not) and then use the company SOP's as a guide (which may or may not apply to every scenario or failure) and then use their wisdom, nouse, gut feeling or rat-cunning that they have garnered from operating experience and experience on type, to look at all the options and how it affects the flight, draw a conclusion from the FACTS THAT ARE AVAILABLE TO THEM, and to make a decision about whether it is safe, legal or indeed prudent, to continue with the flight.
4. It is generally, not in the pilot's best interest to continue flight with an 'unsafe aircraft', to risk his/her arse, that is strapped to the same machine as the pax.
Grandpa Aerotart
Jet...if the media did research before airing a story, and as a result only published the facts then the media industry would cease to exist.
They survive, and thrive, on uneducated speculation dressed up as facts to entertain a generally ignorant audience.
We have all seen stories in the media of which we had direct, accurate knowledge..and not just aviation stories. They NEVER get it right with those and yet the average public, who one would assume also experience this, can turn the page and read another story, about which they know nothing, and accept it as factual.
If the media cannot get a story right that happens within he city they operate from, say Sydney, what hope for a story happening on the other side of the world...In Iraq for instance...where while they may have 'journalists' based they are all trapped inside 'the green zone' merely regurgitating 'facts' as told to them by sundry groups operating within 'the system' in Iraq..and all with their own adgendas.
Modern media have long been incapable of fullfilling their role in society...reporting in an unbiassed fashion...they are about as useful to the average member of society as Infomercials.
Modern media, TV and 99% of print, are acually part of the problem rather than the solution.
They survive, and thrive, on uneducated speculation dressed up as facts to entertain a generally ignorant audience.
We have all seen stories in the media of which we had direct, accurate knowledge..and not just aviation stories. They NEVER get it right with those and yet the average public, who one would assume also experience this, can turn the page and read another story, about which they know nothing, and accept it as factual.
If the media cannot get a story right that happens within he city they operate from, say Sydney, what hope for a story happening on the other side of the world...In Iraq for instance...where while they may have 'journalists' based they are all trapped inside 'the green zone' merely regurgitating 'facts' as told to them by sundry groups operating within 'the system' in Iraq..and all with their own adgendas.
Modern media have long been incapable of fullfilling their role in society...reporting in an unbiassed fashion...they are about as useful to the average member of society as Infomercials.
Modern media, TV and 99% of print, are acually part of the problem rather than the solution.
Metrosexual
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Amen to that CC.
However, i still think that Joe Public is a big part of the problem, in that they quite easily 'swallow' whatever it is that is presented to them.
In this day and age, with the internet etc, 'digging in the dirt' has never, in all our human history, been easier.
Most people just don't give a fcuk about anything for more than 10mins, unfortunately.
However, i still think that Joe Public is a big part of the problem, in that they quite easily 'swallow' whatever it is that is presented to them.
In this day and age, with the internet etc, 'digging in the dirt' has never, in all our human history, been easier.
Most people just don't give a fcuk about anything for more than 10mins, unfortunately.
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Ok, I've had a couple of glasses of red, so I'll bite.
The "Chicken Little" posts above are just drivel. Sorry.
As a previous poster explained (as well as JaK and CC and anyone else I've left out), the crew handled the situation exceptionally well. And it was a NON-EVENT. (I have a couple of hours in the last few years on the 744).
To cover a couple of concerned posts ... the crew would have known exactly which tyre had burst (cockpit indication). To allude to a Concorde type incident is invalid .. completely.
It really just comes down to common sense, systems knowledge, rational thought and experience. But what would I know .. I'm just an over-paid, under-worked person who rorts the system.
Feel better now ...
N
Edited to give credit where it's due
The "Chicken Little" posts above are just drivel. Sorry.
As a previous poster explained (as well as JaK and CC and anyone else I've left out), the crew handled the situation exceptionally well. And it was a NON-EVENT. (I have a couple of hours in the last few years on the 744).
To cover a couple of concerned posts ... the crew would have known exactly which tyre had burst (cockpit indication). To allude to a Concorde type incident is invalid .. completely.
It really just comes down to common sense, systems knowledge, rational thought and experience. But what would I know .. I'm just an over-paid, under-worked person who rorts the system.
Feel better now ...
N
Edited to give credit where it's due
Last edited by noip; 10th Jan 2007 at 09:28.
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how do you know that there was no damage caused to the fuse( by means of the fairing support structure not breaking away and slamming into the fuse),the aircraft should of returned to it's departure point for an inspection,as we all know little things can lead to large problems.
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Total NON EVENT. Correctly handled by all concerned in what sounds like a very professional manner. Exactly how every company (and the crew involved) would train for this event in the sim.
The comments on this thread are becoming more the norm on PPRuNe. The ill informed passing comment on things that they have very little knowledge about whilst casting judgement on the decisions of professionaly trained people who were actually there. Makes me want to
The speculation on here says more about the intelligence of the posters than anything else.
Chimbu/Clarrie et al, far more eloquently put than I can manage.
Oh and News, welcome to the real world where **** happens.
The comments on this thread are becoming more the norm on PPRuNe. The ill informed passing comment on things that they have very little knowledge about whilst casting judgement on the decisions of professionaly trained people who were actually there. Makes me want to
The speculation on here says more about the intelligence of the posters than anything else.Chimbu/Clarrie et al, far more eloquently put than I can manage.
Oh and News, welcome to the real world where **** happens.
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Would have been an awfully uncomfortable flight from Singapore to Frankfurt had that been the case.
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NO.
Neither do I.
However, I think you will find that there is a procedure to be followed should such an incident occur. Additionally, Boeing would more than likely have designed the 747 to withstand such a tyre failure.
Those of you who believe the absolute garbage mis-reported by channel 7.... you have exposed yourselves as either trolls or amateur spotters.
... a three metre hole in the fuselage.... for f%$#ks sake.
"the country of occurrence is responsible for any safety investigation."
Well, there goes Dick Smith again. Will he now say that Qantas intimidates Singapore?!!
Actually as ex CASA chief he would know this, so one must think that he is a bit short of publicity, needing to see his face on TV and the only way he can do it is this sad effort at making an incident out of a completely normal and well handled event.
Congrats to the crew, they did the right thing, the -400 will tell you if anything was wrong, it did not, and there WAS nothing wrong.
Well, there goes Dick Smith again. Will he now say that Qantas intimidates Singapore?!!
Actually as ex CASA chief he would know this, so one must think that he is a bit short of publicity, needing to see his face on TV and the only way he can do it is this sad effort at making an incident out of a completely normal and well handled event.
Congrats to the crew, they did the right thing, the -400 will tell you if anything was wrong, it did not, and there WAS nothing wrong.
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Late breaking news
The huge gaping hole in the fuselage has been identified as the same gaping hole that affected a Singapore Airlines flight out of New Zealand.
This now mythical hole has infected a number of aeroplanes transiting Changi Airport and appears now to have started biting other components of aeroplanes including tyres and parts of wings, its appetite no longer sated by mere fuselage metal.
Airlines have been advised to have their pilots ensure they do under no circumstaces taxi or park in dark areas of Changi airport as they may be infected by the Herpes Changius virus as it has been dubbed in the Straits Times and various desperate "news that's printed to fit" rather than fit to be printed publications in Australasia.
The Australian Government has issued a Travel Bulletin allerting potential travellers that their flight may be affected if a journalist desperate for a story is ingested into a turbine during takeoff.
Give us all a break. The crew would never have continued if there was any danger. There was none. Flight projected successfully and aeroplane fixed.
Journos in here need a red flag and a mental health warning on all postings.
Best all
EWL
This now mythical hole has infected a number of aeroplanes transiting Changi Airport and appears now to have started biting other components of aeroplanes including tyres and parts of wings, its appetite no longer sated by mere fuselage metal.
Airlines have been advised to have their pilots ensure they do under no circumstaces taxi or park in dark areas of Changi airport as they may be infected by the Herpes Changius virus as it has been dubbed in the Straits Times and various desperate "news that's printed to fit" rather than fit to be printed publications in Australasia.
The Australian Government has issued a Travel Bulletin allerting potential travellers that their flight may be affected if a journalist desperate for a story is ingested into a turbine during takeoff.
Give us all a break. The crew would never have continued if there was any danger. There was none. Flight projected successfully and aeroplane fixed.
Journos in here need a red flag and a mental health warning on all postings.
Best all
EWL
Thread Starter
Do you know the complete facts surrounding the incident?
NO.
Neither do I.
.........
Those of you who believe the absolute garbage mis-reported by channel 7.... you have exposed yourselves as either trolls or amateur spotters.
... a three metre hole in the fuselage.... for f%$#ks sake.
NO.
Neither do I.
.........
Those of you who believe the absolute garbage mis-reported by channel 7.... you have exposed yourselves as either trolls or amateur spotters.
... a three metre hole in the fuselage.... for f%$#ks sake.
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Puece, I can't find anything in the PHNL thread that is critical of the airmanship and decision making skills of the crew involved.
The two incidents have no correlation and any criticism levelled in that thread is aimed at Jetstar (and Qantas) management. You are being unnecessarily sensitive.
The two incidents have no correlation and any criticism levelled in that thread is aimed at Jetstar (and Qantas) management. You are being unnecessarily sensitive.
Now it looks like the SMH is in on the act:
A hole lot of trouble for Qantas
Now have a close look at the caption and the photo.
Trouble in the hold...officials inspect the damage
Officials! Haha, they look suspiciously like a couple of flight attendants having a sticky beak. In fact I would be willing to bet a lot of money that the photo was taken by one of their colleauges and flogged off to the media.
What a crock of ****!
A hole lot of trouble for Qantas
Now have a close look at the caption and the photo.
Trouble in the hold...officials inspect the damage
Officials! Haha, they look suspiciously like a couple of flight attendants having a sticky beak. In fact I would be willing to bet a lot of money that the photo was taken by one of their colleauges and flogged off to the media.
What a crock of ****!
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I might be naive....but I am pretty sure if the commander of that 744 actually saw the physical damage to the aircraft, he would have returned for a landing.
The crux is, no matter how bad it looked after the fact, and on the ground, from what I can gather, the crew made use of all information available to them, and made a decision to continue based on the facts they had available. Period.
These guys don't get paid any extra for breaking the rules or risking their arse.
The crux is, no matter how bad it looked after the fact, and on the ground, from what I can gather, the crew made use of all information available to them, and made a decision to continue based on the facts they had available. Period.
These guys don't get paid any extra for breaking the rules or risking their arse.
The Reverend
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if the commander of that 744 actually saw the physical damage to the aircraft, he would have returned for a landing.
Maybe doing a spacewalk after take off should be made mandatory.
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Don't you just LOVE all this Monday morning quarter-backing......... Some people really need to get away from MSFS and into the real world of commercial aviation.
Give the PROFESSIONALS some credit for a job well done. Please.
Give the PROFESSIONALS some credit for a job well done. Please.
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"Give the PROFESSIONALS some credit for a job well done. Please."
Exactly,could not have put it better myself.
I often wonder how many of these arm chair experts are actually journalists fishing.
Exactly,could not have put it better myself.
I often wonder how many of these arm chair experts are actually journalists fishing.