View Poll Results: Should AIPA and AFAP join forces?
Voters: 248. This poll is closed
One Pilot Union in Australia
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One Pilot Union in Australia
Woomera, twas thinking about running a poll on what peoples views are regarding the thought of AFAP & AIPA putting their heads together, and forming ONE union to represent all pilots in Australia, just like other professional unions support all area's, ie Nurses, Teachers etc.
Peoples thoughts and idea's?? It might help our industry from completely becoming a race to the bottom. Please no slanging matches between companies, just constructive debate on the pro's and con's.
Peoples thoughts and idea's?? It might help our industry from completely becoming a race to the bottom. Please no slanging matches between companies, just constructive debate on the pro's and con's.
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Absolutely.
It's time to swallow a bit of personal pride and let go of certain past events, including the poor attitudes of past leaders towards certain pilot groups. Unfortunately the classical "alpha-male" assertive pilot personality, ego, ambition, and pride does tend to make that difficult to achieve. A few egos are going to have to be kept on a tight leash for a while for it to occur.
There are numerous pros, and few if any cons.
It's time to swallow a bit of personal pride and let go of certain past events, including the poor attitudes of past leaders towards certain pilot groups. Unfortunately the classical "alpha-male" assertive pilot personality, ego, ambition, and pride does tend to make that difficult to achieve. A few egos are going to have to be kept on a tight leash for a while for it to occur.
There are numerous pros, and few if any cons.
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Bring it on. The mistakes of the past must be put to bed FOR EVER. I'm guessing, but I would say more than half the profession did not even have a PPL during the the war. Why should they continue to suffer for sins they could not have comitted.
Management are seeking to return to the poisonous past, with the oldest play in the book - divide 'n conquor. Their strategy WILL work unless we all work together.
Under-cutting the wages of those at the top will not create one more job for pilots, it will simply enrich the management team and transfer that job to someone else.
Here's a thought -why not start a co-operative crewing company before someone else starts a FOR PROFIT one?
Management are seeking to return to the poisonous past, with the oldest play in the book - divide 'n conquor. Their strategy WILL work unless we all work together.
Under-cutting the wages of those at the top will not create one more job for pilots, it will simply enrich the management team and transfer that job to someone else.
Here's a thought -why not start a co-operative crewing company before someone else starts a FOR PROFIT one?
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The second bit is absolutely correct. A loose conglomeration of pilot associations is........a loose conglomeration of pilot associations! Every additional one dilutes the influence they can have on contract negotiations with companies. Not a problem if you don't belong to a company trying to shaft you, but otherwise.........
Metrosexual
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Someone once posted on these forums the idea of a 'Guild' of Australian pilots eg you're either in it or out of it, that encompasses ALL professional pilots from the Skygods, to the GA jocks.
Maybe that might also stop the people at the lower levels suffering from poor conditions, and also getting gazumped by pilots working for free (or food).
There are numerous viable solutions to having an organised pilot collective.
The biggest problem however, is, and always will be, the self-serving nature of the pilot themselves.
Someone said it; 'Like trying to herd cats'
PS I would join a single pilot union.
Maybe that might also stop the people at the lower levels suffering from poor conditions, and also getting gazumped by pilots working for free (or food).
There are numerous viable solutions to having an organised pilot collective.
The biggest problem however, is, and always will be, the self-serving nature of the pilot themselves.
Someone said it; 'Like trying to herd cats'
PS I would join a single pilot union.
Sprucegoose
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Whilst I suspect many unions are represented on these forums, perhaps the results could be forwarded to the various boards.
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What will your money buy?
Hmmm, don't know enough about current AFAP but would not advise anyone to have anything to do with current AIPA.
Their latest "victory" (as interpreted today by VP on Qrewroom) has cost their members well in excess of $100,000 in legal fees with much more to come.
1% in membership fees from the AFAP may seem cheap compared to what the AIPA members will be paying soon with the lawyers lapping it up.
Pass-a-frozo, good question, why is there not a no union option?
Their latest "victory" (as interpreted today by VP on Qrewroom) has cost their members well in excess of $100,000 in legal fees with much more to come.
1% in membership fees from the AFAP may seem cheap compared to what the AIPA members will be paying soon with the lawyers lapping it up.
Pass-a-frozo, good question, why is there not a no union option?
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Alas, should the Coalition government be returned in the next federal election, unions become irrelevant.
Even my mother won't vote for Howard, et al, again. Will yours?
Even my mother won't vote for Howard, et al, again. Will yours?
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Based on AIPA and AFAP's dismal performance both should be scrapped and one Australian Pilots Union should be formed. It's time we had a union with more to offer it's members than just loss of licence insurance...Personally I'm 
sick of being told that we should accept crap pay and conditions because we love flying.
...Ours are the only unions that are afraid of employers.
sick of being told that we should accept crap pay and conditions because we love flying. ...Ours are the only unions that are afraid of employers.
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psycho joe, 1989 taught the unions that the people they really need to be afraid of is a sizeable minority of their potential members. Some would call such people potential 'heroes', and as much as we would all love to see a single union, that particular "elephant in the living room" will simply have to be acknowledged and dealt with before it can be achieved.
Despite that "elephant", I think it's do-able, but only if the younger people in the industry can look beyond the events of that year and similar, if smaller, catfights that have occurred within the industry since.
Despite that "elephant", I think it's do-able, but only if the younger people in the industry can look beyond the events of that year and similar, if smaller, catfights that have occurred within the industry since.
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Doesn't sound like a bad idea, but , WIFM ( whats in it for me ), what are they going to achieve, what are their collective goals, are they commited to a certain path and time frame ?.
For example: by June 2007 we will have all states signed up to the GA award, therefore benefits for GA pilots, if they do not achieve these set goals in agree'd time they will resign and let someone else have a go.
Will they agree to represent all members to the hilt ?.
For example: by June 2007 we will have all states signed up to the GA award, therefore benefits for GA pilots, if they do not achieve these set goals in agree'd time they will resign and let someone else have a go.
Will they agree to represent all members to the hilt ?.
Grandpa Aerotart
If you ever wanted to see an example of the 'me' generation look no further..
LRT the biggest impediment to a unified pilot group is most pilots think if I haven't benefitted in my present position then they are achieving nothing and should resign.
Without taking a broader view pilots doom 'unification' before it even starts.
LRT the biggest impediment to a unified pilot group is most pilots think if I haven't benefitted in my present position then they are achieving nothing and should resign.
Without taking a broader view pilots doom 'unification' before it even starts.
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Well said Chuck. I witnessed many mates in GA who looked at the pilot dispute as an opportunity to get a few rungs up the ladder. (We were all in that transition stage then between GA and airlines.) They viewed the goal as worth any repercussions from stepping on a few shoulders. Nothing's changed.
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Point taken chuck, although i think you may misunderstand my point, ( note i will never and have never worked for free or slashed and stabbed for a position, infact in the past was unemployed for 18 odd months as a pilot due to the fact i would not work for crap ).
Perhaps if my early statement was to read, "whats in it for us", these present organisation have been in existence for many many years and as was pointed out on an earlier thread, they have not achieved much and are often selective in which members they represent.
If they want/deserve my/our hard earnt cash how about some comitment on their behalves, how about a plan and a time line, how about a leader with the conjone to put a statement that " if i do not achieve this i will resign" ( honest commitment to the topic).
I still think WIFM is a fair question, if one has integrity.
Furthermore i do not wish to be drawn into the '89 conversation with the crustys that were there, perhaps if the unions had more commitment/forethought things may also have had a different outcome in that instance ( yes i studied commerce at school, the airline dispute was one of the issues of the time ).
Perhaps if my early statement was to read, "whats in it for us", these present organisation have been in existence for many many years and as was pointed out on an earlier thread, they have not achieved much and are often selective in which members they represent.
If they want/deserve my/our hard earnt cash how about some comitment on their behalves, how about a plan and a time line, how about a leader with the conjone to put a statement that " if i do not achieve this i will resign" ( honest commitment to the topic).
I still think WIFM is a fair question, if one has integrity.
Furthermore i do not wish to be drawn into the '89 conversation with the crustys that were there, perhaps if the unions had more commitment/forethought things may also have had a different outcome in that instance ( yes i studied commerce at school, the airline dispute was one of the issues of the time ).
Last edited by Lefthanded_Rock_Thrower; 7th Nov 2006 at 22:30.
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Would you pay?
Maybe the survey should have asked "would you pay to belong to a unified union?"
I wonder if pilots would behave any differently if the unions amalgamated.(they never will)
Or would pilots still expect freebies.
I wonder if pilots would behave any differently if the unions amalgamated.(they never will)
Or would pilots still expect freebies.