Why are FO hours halved in Australia?

[Master Red Cylinder]

I dont understand why FO hours are halved in Australia in multi-crew operations. If between the two pilots say in a 737 both act as pilot flying and monitor pilot alternatively, they are both "flying" within the designated role for that particular flight. Sure, the legal responsibilities are differentiated throughout all operations. So what is the logic behind dividing FO hours in half, or am I missing something here? I know of ohter ICAO member countries in which FO hours are counted for 100%.

MRC

[pakeha-boy]

mate!!....I think youll find that if the "wally" in the left seat passes out and croaks it....theyll give you the full hours you were flying the beast as you will have saved everybodys life, stopped countless #,s of lawsuits and saved a whole forest of trees in paperwork........

I,m with you...if your qualified to be there,your qualified to count SIC hrs.....obviously they think your only half a peelot.....Geeeeeeeeeeeeeezzz.PB

[tubby one]

why don't you read ICAO Annex 1?

[swh]

Originally Posted by Master Red Cylinder

So what is the logic behind dividing FO hours in half, or am I missing something here? I know of ohter ICAO member countries in which FO hours are counted for 100%.

Originally Posted by ICAO Annex 1 - Personnel Licensing

2.1.9 Crediting of flight time

2.1.9.1 A student pilot or the holder of a pilot licence
shall be entitled to be credited in full with all solo, dual
instruction and pilot-in-command flight time towards the total
flight time required for the initial issue of a pilot licence or the
issue of a higher grade of pilot licence.

2.1.9.2 The holder of a pilot licence, when acting as copilot
of an aircraft required to be operated with a co-pilot, shall
be entitled to be credited with not more than 50 per cent of the
co-pilot flight time towards the total flight time required for a
higher grade of pilot licence.

2.1.9.3 The holder of a pilot licence, when acting as
co-pilot performing under the supervision of the pilot-incommand
the functions and duties of a pilot-in-command,
shall be entitled to be credited in full with this flight time
towards the total flight time required for a higher grade of pilot
licence.

Co-pilot time is counted 100% towards total flight time, and 50% towards total aeronautical experience which is used internationally for achieving a "higher grade of pilot licence".

[Aussie]

I take it thats world wide and not just Aus then?

Aussie

[podbreak]

Lets clear things up a little here;

As an FO ICUS is logged for sectors flown, and co-pilot when the skipper flies. Co-pilot time is any flightdeck duty not covered by ICUS, command or dual.

Some (most I think) smaller regional operators who operate multicrew will require the FO to log only co-pilot time (most only have a CP endorsements), but in 'the airlines' it is as above.

[Baron Captain ?]

Well a few years ago I was flying from Melbourne to Sydney and the Skipper asked me to tune the Vor/Dme's onto Canberra..

I Replied:

Pi$$ Off!!!..I have done my bit for the night.. I'm more than halfway and I can only log half the time, So I have knocked off.. Your on your Own now!!!. I'm having a sleep!



Ha Ha....
Joking of course!!..
But I guess we are talking about absolute stupid stupid stupid Australian CASA public servants that made these stupid rules!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Capt Claret]

Originally Posted by podbreak

Lets clear things up a little here;

As an FO ICUS is logged for sectors flown, and co-pilot when the skipper flies.

In more than 20years in the game I've never seen this interpretation before, nor have I seen a log book completed in such a fashion. ICUS is logged if command endorsed and undergoing command training, but not as far as I know for normal F/O duties, regardless of who is PF.

[AerocatS2A]

That's right Claret, you must have a command endorsement to be able to log ICUS. Do the likes of QANTAS give their FOs a command endorsement? Maybe if they do the FO could log ICUS, but otherwise...

[motaderim]

This only applies to Australian licence holders. Some countries accredit legs flown by FO toward Command Practice. This become useful when applying for jobs outside Oz, command potential.

[Wizofoz]

Worth pointing out that Australia is the only place that has "FO endorsements"

Every where else, a type rating is a type rating (though in the US you don't need ANY type rating to be an F/O!!)

[pakeha-boy]

Wiz mate.....are you talking "F/O" endorsement or "SIC" endorsement......I believe they are the same...........and where I fly,all the F/O,s ..I fly with must have a SIC endorsement issued by the FAA...(A320/319,...endorsement)......PB

[GaryGnu]

ICAO Annex 1 will be amended on 23rd Nov to allow Co-Pilots to count 100% of Co-pilot time towards a higher grade of licence. Keep an eye out for new para 2.1.9.2 & 2.1.9.3.

[Master Red Cylinder]

hmmm..interesting, thanks. I am aware of ICAO annex 1, but where I am I hold a type rating as FO and log 100%. Both experience and towards a higher rating. There is never a mention of 50%. I get my hours certified by the company and the civil aviation authority every six months. What I wonder is what would happen on my return to Australia...
MRC

[swh]

In more than 20years in the game I've never seen this interpretation before, nor have I seen a log book completed in such a fashion. ICUS is logged if command endorsed and undergoing command training, but not as far as I know for normal F/O duties, regardless of who is PF.

This is not correct, one can log ICUS FO without being training for command.

The pilot logging ICUS needs to have a command endorsement and instrument rating if IFR, and the operator must roster that flight to be ICUS.

Originally Posted by Wizofoz

Worth pointing out that Australia is the only place that has "FO endorsements"

Not true, many countries have P2/P2X/co-pilot ratings, it is a standard ICAO provision.

Originally Posted by ICAO Annex 1

2.1.3.2 Type ratings shall be established for:
a) each type of aircraft certificated for operation with a
minimum crew of at least two pilots;
b) each type of helicopter certificated for single-pilot
operation except where a class rating has been issued
under 2.1.3.1.1; and
c) any type of aircraft whenever considered necessary by
the Licensing Authority.
Note.— Requirements for class and type ratings for gliders
and free balloons have not been determined.
2.1.3.3 When an applicant demonstrates skill and knowledge
for the initial issue of a pilot licence, the category and the
ratings appropriate to the class or type of aircraft used in the
demonstration shall be entered on the licence.
2.1.4 Circumstances in which class
and type ratings are required
2.1.4.1 A Contracting State having issued a pilot licence
shall not permit the holder of such licence to act either as pilotin-
command or as co-pilot of an aeroplane or helicopter unless
the holder has received authorization as follows:
a) the appropriate class rating specified in 2.1.3.1; or
b) a type rating when required in accordance with the
provisions of 2.1.3.2.
2.1.4.1.1 When a type rating is issued limiting the
privileges to act as co-pilot, or limiting the privileges to act as
pilot only during the cruise phase of the flight, such limitation
shall be endorsed on the rating.
2.1.4.2 For the purpose of training, testing, or specific
special purpose non-revenue, non-passenger carrying flights,
special authorization may be provided in writing to the licence
holder by the Licensing Authority in place of issuing the class
or type rating in accordance with 2.1.4.1. This authorization
shall be limited in validity to the time needed to complete the
specific flight.

[Wizofoz]

I stand corrected!

However, having operated uner Australian, Japanese, JAR and UAE air law, OZ was the only place that had a different evel of type rating. It's also the only place it's refered to as an "Endorsement".

[Capt Claret]

swh

This is not correct, one can log ICUS FO without being training for command.

Sorry, I don't agree. CAO 40.1.0, 10.7, says in part,

10.7 The holder of an air transport pilot (aeroplane) licence must log his or her flight time in accordance with whichever of the following is applicable:

1. any flight time during which the licence holder acts as pilot in command must be entered in his or her log book as time in command;
2. any flight time during which the licence holder acts as pilot in command under supervision must be entered in his or her log book as time in command under supervision;
3. any flight time during which the licence holder acts as co-pilot must be entered in his or her log book as time as co-pilot.

So, even with a command endorsement, if employed as a co-pilot or F/O, one doesn't assume command-under supervision status just because one is PF. Added to this, by far the majority of flights a co-pilot makes would be with a line pilot, therfore, how can said co-pilot assume commmand from some one not authorised to train?

[pakeha-boy]

Capt Claret...would have to agree...(whats in the drink your drinking????always wanted to ask that!!)........

Even if "type" rated,the only way Ive been able to log it(and this includes my downunder time,Oz,kiwi) is as ...S.I.C..... PB

[Agony]

Hey Clarrie, I'm with you.......

I was starting to think I have been getting it wrong all these years. My "impression" of ICUS is that if you meet all of the requirements (Command Endo, IR etc) and:

you are acting in command under supervision

Which I believe to be when undergoing Command training only, not when acting as PF as an FO on line operations.

Moreover, each company usually has a policy for logging of ICUS and it generally has to be countersigned / endorsed by the PIC as ICUS. It cannot be up to the whim of the FO to log it his/herself.

Can someone clear this up with fact, otherwise there would appear to be guys out there with a lot more ICUS and therefore Total Aero Experience more than they should........

[swh]

Originally Posted by AerocatS2A

Do the likes of QANTAS give their FOs a command endorsement?

Yes.

Originally Posted by Master Red Cylinder

but where I am I hold a type rating as FO and log 100%. Both experience and towards a higher rating.

Yes, that is common in Europe. It was not always the case in the past.

Originally Posted by Wizofoz

OZ was the only place that had a different evel of type rating. It's also the only place it's refered to as an "Endorsement".

Not sure about that, as far as I am aware P.I.C. (P1) or Co-pilot only (P2) privileges are fairly common. Many CAAs will not give a P1 rating on a multi-crew aircraft to a CPL holder. The comments by pakeha-boy above seem to be similar.

I think the term "Endorsement" is a hang over from pre credit card licence days when licences where physically "endorsed" with type rating or design features.

Originally Posted by Capt Claret

if employed as a co-pilot or F/O, one doesn't assume command-under supervision status just because one is PF.

I agree with that, PF does not mean ICUS in Australia.

ICUS is logged when the operator has rostered that flight to be ICUS and the PIC is appointed for the purpose by the operator of the aircraft.

I am aware of no provision that states the PIC must hold an ATPL, as far as I am aware a PPL holder can be the PIC. I am under no provision that states that ICUS can only be done during commercial or aerial work activities, i.e. it is legal to do ICUS as a private operation.

Refer to CAR 5.40.

Overseas the situation is very different, normally if the FO is PF they log P1/US (even at 200 hrs total time) and the P1 signs off the sector.

Originally Posted by Capt Claret

a line pilot, therfore, how can said co-pilot assume commmand from some one not authorised to train

Very little is said about the person supervising the flying apart from the PIC is appointed for the purpose by the operator of the aircraft. As far as I am aware ICUS is not training, the person receiving ICUS has "command" endorsements and ratings relevant to the particular operation. That may be a company specific situation you are referring to in terms of what type of pilot if appointed by the operator to supervise ICUS.

ICUS can be logged in a VFR C150, it is not only for airline pilots. The person receiving ICUS must hold a CPL or ATPL or the equivalent validation.