New Jet charter Company to start in Brissy
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New Jet charter Company to start in Brissy
http://www.smh.com.au/news/Business/...641310016.html
Not sure about his claim of going bush in a E190. Most major tourist haunts in the bush handle 737's. Where would you want to go in a E190 that you couldn't go in a 737/146/F100 anyway??
Turbine charter market is certainly heating up in Australia. National Jet, Alliance, Ozjet, plus all the turbo prop players in Perth.
Anyone know much coin is being offered for the pilots of this operation??
Not sure about his claim of going bush in a E190. Most major tourist haunts in the bush handle 737's. Where would you want to go in a E190 that you couldn't go in a 737/146/F100 anyway??
Turbine charter market is certainly heating up in Australia. National Jet, Alliance, Ozjet, plus all the turbo prop players in Perth.
Anyone know much coin is being offered for the pilots of this operation??
Last edited by neville_nobody; 3rd Oct 2006 at 13:28.
They would have to be the lowest cost jet charter company around
Boy its going to get cramped with parking over in the maintenance area at Brisbane.
I look over that side and see F100's x about 4, Ausjets 73 x 2, Natjet 146, a few Caribou's, maybe a Virgin 73 and a light blue tailed 73 with the signage " our airline " Who is that? plus of course a smattering of Metro's and King Airs. And in Feb a Dornier joins the lot. New hangar going up too.
I look over that side and see F100's x about 4, Ausjets 73 x 2, Natjet 146, a few Caribou's, maybe a Virgin 73 and a light blue tailed 73 with the signage " our airline " Who is that? plus of course a smattering of Metro's and King Airs. And in Feb a Dornier joins the lot. New hangar going up too.
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Alliance wages???
I'm sorry but I must not be up with current remuneration packages that are on offer around the country by the various operators, as on a number of occasions lately there have been repeated insinuations that Alliance Airlines flight crews are paid lower than normal wages...
Now while I don't actually work for them, I do have a number of friends that are in their employ & if they are to be believed then the F100 FO's are in the mid 60k region & the Captains are in the vicinity of 40% better than that. Now while this obviously isn't Qantas pay, I didn't think it was total cr*p....
Maybe I've been putting up with Metro pay for far too long though???
Now while I don't actually work for them, I do have a number of friends that are in their employ & if they are to be believed then the F100 FO's are in the mid 60k region & the Captains are in the vicinity of 40% better than that. Now while this obviously isn't Qantas pay, I didn't think it was total cr*p....
Maybe I've been putting up with Metro pay for far too long though???
Kwitchabitichin:
Let me see if I have this right?
40% greater than say 65K = 105K or there abouts. To command a 100 seat jet airliner!
With allowances, I grossed up 95K last year to fly a 34 seat Turboprop! Whilst I'm pretty happy with my lot, I certainly don't feel over paid.
It appears that the race to the bottom for some groups just keeps on going.
I'm with you Capn Bloggs, they deserve a better deal.
Let me see if I have this right?
40% greater than say 65K = 105K or there abouts. To command a 100 seat jet airliner!
With allowances, I grossed up 95K last year to fly a 34 seat Turboprop! Whilst I'm pretty happy with my lot, I certainly don't feel over paid.
It appears that the race to the bottom for some groups just keeps on going.
I'm with you Capn Bloggs, they deserve a better deal.
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The FACT of the matter is that when Alliance start the Leinster and Mount Keith contracts on 01 November the Captain of their 105 passenger jet aircraft will be paid ~$10,000 to $15,000 LESS than a passenger travelling to the minesite to clean dishes in the kitchen, make beds and clean rooms.
They have recruited a number of pilots to fly the aircraft- many have NO PREVIOUS jet experience.
They have recruited a number of pilots to fly the aircraft- many have NO PREVIOUS jet experience.
Thread Starter
Doubt you'd be getting $90 000 to work as a cleaner in a mine. Licensed truck drivers are on around $80 000.
None the less goes to show how competitive the Australian job market is for pilots. Wish all those crying "pilot shortage" read this.
None the less goes to show how competitive the Australian job market is for pilots. Wish all those crying "pilot shortage" read this.
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Not far off the mark
$70 000 for a kitchen hand at three of the mines in W.A . Information courtesy of a friend who works at recruitment agency.
I`d rather be flying the plane for less. AND THAT IS WHAT STIPULATES WHAT WE GET PAID!!!!!
I`d rather be flying the plane for less. AND THAT IS WHAT STIPULATES WHAT WE GET PAID!!!!!
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Someone posted the 40 % issue......................
However, I think he/she may have calculated it the wrong way, the 40% generally goes down from the Capt salary, not up from the FO's. (thankfully!!!!)
As always ...there are statistics and then there are statistics...... and then there are facts.
As for the cleaner in the mine on 90K, all I can offer is that if my goal was to be a a cleaner I would go to the mines as well.
Regards
However, I think he/she may have calculated it the wrong way, the 40% generally goes down from the Capt salary, not up from the FO's. (thankfully!!!!)
As always ...there are statistics and then there are statistics...... and then there are facts.
As for the cleaner in the mine on 90K, all I can offer is that if my goal was to be a a cleaner I would go to the mines as well.
Regards
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People in glass houses shouldn’t throw stones
Time for a history lesson on how great the NJS pay has been over the years, for both the 146, Dash 8 and how it compared to Ansett (146 pay), Southern (146 and Dash 8) and the regional award (Dash 8).
The 2002 NJS had the following rates of pay:
Capt 146: $97710
FO 146: $58626
Capt Dash 8: $54327
FO Dash 8: $34687
Trainee pilot (pre check to line): $25795
This pay was based on 75 hours per month. Over 75 hours the pilots were paid:
Capt 146: $165 FO 146: $102
Capt Dash 8: $92 FO Dash 8: $52
The 2000 Ansett award paid the following
Capt 146: $103322
F0 146 (1st year) $57860
This pay was based on 55 hours per month. Over 55 hours the pilots were paid:
Pilots who exceed 55 hours flight time per roster period will be paid an additional hourly rate calculated by dividing the annual salary by 660.
For Captains this would be $156 per hour and FO’s $88
Deadhead travel and ground duties will accrue 50% of flight pay.
So if both the NJS and Ansett pilots did 700 – 800 hours per year and 1 month of leave their pay would be.
NJS Captain 146: $97710 (700 hrs/year) / $97710 (800 hrs/year)
Ansett Captain 146: $104669 (700 hrs/year) / $106087 (800 hrs/year)
So both Captains flying the same aircraft type, yet the Ansett Captain earns $6959 - $8377 more.
Back in 1998, the Southern Airlines pilots were paid:
Capt 146: $105000 (base)
FO 146: $62000 (base)
Capt Dash 8: $63000 (base)
FO Dash 8: $34000 (base)
So 4 years earlier the Southern pilots were earning more than the NJS pilots flying the same equipment.
And in 2002 the Regional award for the Dash 8 was
Capt: $63427 / F0: $41378
Which means in 2002 a NJS Capt was earning $9100 less than the award.
Now fast forward to 2006 the NJS pilots are having a dig at Alliance pilots for what they get paid. Yet history has shown that NJS pilots have being earning far less than other pilots (Ansett/Southern) in Australia for years.
Alliance Captains have the potential to earn $125600 (based on 800/year).
Rather than worrying about Alliance, you should be looking out for Virgin Blue when they start operating the E195’s. They will be going head to head with the B717’s at a far lower cost.
Now back on topic. I think SkyAirWorld will struggle to get into the market.
The E170 has a list price of around $20 million USD or $27 million AUD. Based on these they will be paying $266667 AUD per month in lease costs. If they get 2000 hours per year (5.5 hours per day) per aircraft it will cost them $1600 per hour just for the aircraft. Compare this to leasing a 146 or F100 for $3-8 million USD or $4-$10 million AUD or about $40000 – $100000 AUD per month. So using 2000 hours a year it will cost $240 – 600 per hour for the aircraft.
It's a cut-throat world in charter (at all levels) and when there are similar aircraft aleady doing the job and companies with proven track records any new company will struggle, especially when you look at the start up costs and the fact it will cost them 2.7 - 6.7 more per hour to lease the aircraft.
The 2002 NJS had the following rates of pay:
Capt 146: $97710
FO 146: $58626
Capt Dash 8: $54327
FO Dash 8: $34687
Trainee pilot (pre check to line): $25795
This pay was based on 75 hours per month. Over 75 hours the pilots were paid:
Capt 146: $165 FO 146: $102
Capt Dash 8: $92 FO Dash 8: $52
The 2000 Ansett award paid the following
Capt 146: $103322
F0 146 (1st year) $57860
This pay was based on 55 hours per month. Over 55 hours the pilots were paid:
Pilots who exceed 55 hours flight time per roster period will be paid an additional hourly rate calculated by dividing the annual salary by 660.
For Captains this would be $156 per hour and FO’s $88
Deadhead travel and ground duties will accrue 50% of flight pay.
So if both the NJS and Ansett pilots did 700 – 800 hours per year and 1 month of leave their pay would be.
NJS Captain 146: $97710 (700 hrs/year) / $97710 (800 hrs/year)
Ansett Captain 146: $104669 (700 hrs/year) / $106087 (800 hrs/year)
So both Captains flying the same aircraft type, yet the Ansett Captain earns $6959 - $8377 more.
Back in 1998, the Southern Airlines pilots were paid:
Capt 146: $105000 (base)
FO 146: $62000 (base)
Capt Dash 8: $63000 (base)
FO Dash 8: $34000 (base)
So 4 years earlier the Southern pilots were earning more than the NJS pilots flying the same equipment.
And in 2002 the Regional award for the Dash 8 was
Capt: $63427 / F0: $41378
Which means in 2002 a NJS Capt was earning $9100 less than the award.
Now fast forward to 2006 the NJS pilots are having a dig at Alliance pilots for what they get paid. Yet history has shown that NJS pilots have being earning far less than other pilots (Ansett/Southern) in Australia for years.
Alliance Captains have the potential to earn $125600 (based on 800/year).
Rather than worrying about Alliance, you should be looking out for Virgin Blue when they start operating the E195’s. They will be going head to head with the B717’s at a far lower cost.
Now back on topic. I think SkyAirWorld will struggle to get into the market.
The E170 has a list price of around $20 million USD or $27 million AUD. Based on these they will be paying $266667 AUD per month in lease costs. If they get 2000 hours per year (5.5 hours per day) per aircraft it will cost them $1600 per hour just for the aircraft. Compare this to leasing a 146 or F100 for $3-8 million USD or $4-$10 million AUD or about $40000 – $100000 AUD per month. So using 2000 hours a year it will cost $240 – 600 per hour for the aircraft.
It's a cut-throat world in charter (at all levels) and when there are similar aircraft aleady doing the job and companies with proven track records any new company will struggle, especially when you look at the start up costs and the fact it will cost them 2.7 - 6.7 more per hour to lease the aircraft.
Last edited by AN CSO; 9th Oct 2006 at 01:59.
I get it. NJS pilots, when they were the cheapest jet pilots on the block, should have been complaining that everybody else was paid too much. Is that it? Now that they aren't the cheapest on the block and have work being taken off them in favour of Alliance, they aren't allowed to complain. Got it.
BTW shouldn't your numbers have been:
AS Capt base $103332
+ 195hr "overtime" at $156/hr = $30,420
Total= $133,752 (ignoring Super over and above 9%?, ID travel...)
Thanks for the info on Alliance pay. Once verified (given the apparent dodgy maths above), it'll come in very handy for our negotiations.
BTW shouldn't your numbers have been:
AS Capt base $103332
+ 195hr "overtime" at $156/hr = $30,420
Total= $133,752 (ignoring Super over and above 9%?, ID travel...)
Thanks for the info on Alliance pay. Once verified (given the apparent dodgy maths above), it'll come in very handy for our negotiations.
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It’s a bit hard to compare Qantas with Alliance, due to the fact Qantas does not operate 100 seat jets, Ansett did and their 100 seat jets were identical to NJS. Take Ansett out of the comparison, NJS were still paid far less than Southern pilots flying identical equipment, 146’s and Dash 8’s.
Thanks for correcting the maths; it only Illustrates further the big difference between the pay.
If you want to talk about low wages for jet pilots, there is a B737 operator in the pacific paying FO’s less than $65000 per year.
Like I said, don’t worry about Alliance as within 12 months you will be going head to head with Virgin and their regional jets. Considering the B717 makes up a large portion of the flying NJS does, it won’t be long before Qantas cries poor and will want a lower cost base within the B717 Qantaslink operation.
Now back on topic, has anyone seen a press release from Embraer or the leasing company regarding this new company.
Thanks for correcting the maths; it only Illustrates further the big difference between the pay.
If you want to talk about low wages for jet pilots, there is a B737 operator in the pacific paying FO’s less than $65000 per year.
Like I said, don’t worry about Alliance as within 12 months you will be going head to head with Virgin and their regional jets. Considering the B717 makes up a large portion of the flying NJS does, it won’t be long before Qantas cries poor and will want a lower cost base within the B717 Qantaslink operation.
Now back on topic, has anyone seen a press release from Embraer or the leasing company regarding this new company.
Last edited by AN CSO; 9th Oct 2006 at 02:06.
AN CSO,
Now hang on a minute. NJS was happily operating 146s before a significant number of Southern pilots had their pilots licences. Southern then get 3 146s and are paid more than NJS pilots. Southern then lose their 146s and NJS pilots are still being paid the same inluding inflation. Are you insinuating that NJS should have immediately started jumping up and down demanding a pay rise when Southern arrived on the scene?
And let me give you a little history lesson, because you have either forgotten or are too young to know. The AS pay has always been unnaturally skewed because the pay rates, right up until they went broke, we all set by the Cane Toad in 1989. They were set way and above industry rates at the time in a desperate attempt to entice pilots to join his new Ansett. NJS pilots, in fact, started on the previous industry rates and have stayed there ever since.
So as I see it both your comparisons are fundamentally flawed.
I don't agree with your pontifcations on 717s vs Jungle jets. Skinny 4-breast verses big 5 abreast? Brand new, popular jets verses out-of-production, nearly 10 years old? Especially if the 717s are being operated by QF, I think you'll find Virgin will have a hard time keeping up in their nice shiny new near-jets.
Now hang on a minute. NJS was happily operating 146s before a significant number of Southern pilots had their pilots licences. Southern then get 3 146s and are paid more than NJS pilots. Southern then lose their 146s and NJS pilots are still being paid the same inluding inflation. Are you insinuating that NJS should have immediately started jumping up and down demanding a pay rise when Southern arrived on the scene?
And let me give you a little history lesson, because you have either forgotten or are too young to know. The AS pay has always been unnaturally skewed because the pay rates, right up until they went broke, we all set by the Cane Toad in 1989. They were set way and above industry rates at the time in a desperate attempt to entice pilots to join his new Ansett. NJS pilots, in fact, started on the previous industry rates and have stayed there ever since.
So as I see it both your comparisons are fundamentally flawed.
I don't agree with your pontifcations on 717s vs Jungle jets. Skinny 4-breast verses big 5 abreast? Brand new, popular jets verses out-of-production, nearly 10 years old? Especially if the 717s are being operated by QF, I think you'll find Virgin will have a hard time keeping up in their nice shiny new near-jets.
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JetA,
Apparently he is an ex ADF officer who worked in logistics. probably knows what buttons to push to get the defence work- I am sure that any work gained will be "an arm's length transaction" IAW Howard's ethical standards.... NOT
Apparently he is an ex ADF officer who worked in logistics. probably knows what buttons to push to get the defence work- I am sure that any work gained will be "an arm's length transaction" IAW Howard's ethical standards.... NOT