Bags Under The Seats - Or Else
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Taiwan
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So what to do about the (many here in Asia) duty free carrier bags filled with XO and the like.
Lethal weapons or what??
'bout time the vested interests put safety first and only allowed duty free purchases on arrival.
Lethal weapons or what??
'bout time the vested interests put safety first and only allowed duty free purchases on arrival.
Originally Posted by makintw
So what to do about the (many here in Asia) duty free carrier bags filled with XO and the like.
Lethal weapons or what??
'bout time the vested interests put safety first and only allowed duty free purchases on arrival.
Lethal weapons or what??
'bout time the vested interests put safety first and only allowed duty free purchases on arrival.
Bit dramatic I must admit, but the possibility for such a scenario is definately there.
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Snot,
I agree that 200kts is a bit quick for V1; so lets take it down to about 140 or so. Stick a 2.5 kg camcorder, a 1L bottle of water, a digital still camera, an ipod, Blackberry, phone, PDA, book, keys and my wife’s purse in the bag and you’re probably not far off 5-6kg. Even 4kg could have a decent amount of energy imparted to it.
As for ‘room’ to reach speed – the bag is already going that speed (inertia). As for travel direction – it will maintain its travel direction initially. We’re only talking 3-4 feet. If what you say about falling at the F/A’s feet is true, then I shall need not worry about wearing a seat belt in the back seat of my car as there is no chance of my zooming head-first through the windscreen. Yes I’m substantially heavier than a handbag, but I’m travelling substantially slower and so have exponentially less energy.
Zep -
Agreed. One way to reduce emissions = reduce payload -> reduce each 747 flight by 3-400kg - no duty-free!! Pick it up on arrival (either at a shop at your destination or pre-purchase & collect upon return).
But then you'd have Macquarie Bank whingeing about something so that ain't ever going to happen, now is it...
I agree that 200kts is a bit quick for V1; so lets take it down to about 140 or so. Stick a 2.5 kg camcorder, a 1L bottle of water, a digital still camera, an ipod, Blackberry, phone, PDA, book, keys and my wife’s purse in the bag and you’re probably not far off 5-6kg. Even 4kg could have a decent amount of energy imparted to it.
As for ‘room’ to reach speed – the bag is already going that speed (inertia). As for travel direction – it will maintain its travel direction initially. We’re only talking 3-4 feet. If what you say about falling at the F/A’s feet is true, then I shall need not worry about wearing a seat belt in the back seat of my car as there is no chance of my zooming head-first through the windscreen. Yes I’m substantially heavier than a handbag, but I’m travelling substantially slower and so have exponentially less energy.
Zep -
Agreed. One way to reduce emissions = reduce payload -> reduce each 747 flight by 3-400kg - no duty-free!! Pick it up on arrival (either at a shop at your destination or pre-purchase & collect upon return).
But then you'd have Macquarie Bank whingeing about something so that ain't ever going to happen, now is it...
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Good points on the face of it, Taildragger. But you're missing the point:
In your car smash scenario you are going from ~60kts to 0 in the length of your car, if you drive it into a brick wall. Doubled if it's a head-on smash with someone going the same speed. This equates to a siginificantly higher acceleration force than an RTO where the aircraft takes roughly half the runway (Balanced Field Length case) to stop after reaching approx 150-160 kts or so. Yes it is a dramatic deceleration compared to what we're used to but it is not in the same league as your car-smash scenario. I'd still buckle up if I were you.
Like I said if you face forces of that magnitude in an aircraft it means you have worse things to worry about than a stray gucci-bag.
Yes it will but the aircraft is NOT going to stop instantaneously, magically imparting a speed relative to the cabin of 140kts or whatever. This is elementary physics.
Debatable. Gravity works constantly so it's going to head downward. Quick enough not to hit her in the chest? I don't know. But surely you get the point??????
All I'm trying to say is that this hysteria is often a waste of time. I'm not slagging off QF cabin security but I do see glasses there not infrequently. I also see pens on the armrests and plenty of other articles not secured.
What about shoes, they're okay to leave unsecured?
As long as it doesn't look like a bag, it's okay to leave it laying around?
Why is it a crime to hold onto a handbag which might be soft and flexible but it's okay to hold onto an iPod which is definitely not soft OR flexible and will hurt a lot more when it hits someone?
Common Sense.
In your car smash scenario you are going from ~60kts to 0 in the length of your car, if you drive it into a brick wall. Doubled if it's a head-on smash with someone going the same speed. This equates to a siginificantly higher acceleration force than an RTO where the aircraft takes roughly half the runway (Balanced Field Length case) to stop after reaching approx 150-160 kts or so. Yes it is a dramatic deceleration compared to what we're used to but it is not in the same league as your car-smash scenario. I'd still buckle up if I were you.
Like I said if you face forces of that magnitude in an aircraft it means you have worse things to worry about than a stray gucci-bag.
As for ‘room’ to reach speed – the bag is already going that speed (inertia).
it will maintain its travel direction initially. We’re only talking 3-4 feet
All I'm trying to say is that this hysteria is often a waste of time. I'm not slagging off QF cabin security but I do see glasses there not infrequently. I also see pens on the armrests and plenty of other articles not secured.
What about shoes, they're okay to leave unsecured?
As long as it doesn't look like a bag, it's okay to leave it laying around?
Why is it a crime to hold onto a handbag which might be soft and flexible but it's okay to hold onto an iPod which is definitely not soft OR flexible and will hurt a lot more when it hits someone?
Common Sense.
Join Date: May 2005
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next step
all pax change prior to boarding into their airline supplied cotton pyjamas & slippers. all your personal effects (incl. ipod, mobiles,etc.) are tagged/bagged and put in the hold stowage. you pick them up at the carousal at the next port. you have your amenities kit/headset/ personal entertainment system onboard, so there is no need for all that other s&**.
taking cover
taking cover
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Snot,
Fair points, well made. I defer to you.
However, whilst I may now be convinced as to the physics side of things, I guess my main point remains that the punter was (apparently) asked to do something reasonable by the crew and (apparently) she refused. Whether or not it was a reasonable request technically (ie. given the science we've been discussing
) is a different story.
Maybe in years past, the crew might've bent the rules; however I'd suggest any discretion has been beaten out of them in recent years
.
Fair points, well made. I defer to you.
However, whilst I may now be convinced as to the physics side of things, I guess my main point remains that the punter was (apparently) asked to do something reasonable by the crew and (apparently) she refused. Whether or not it was a reasonable request technically (ie. given the science we've been discussing
) is a different story.Maybe in years past, the crew might've bent the rules; however I'd suggest any discretion has been beaten out of them in recent years
.
Last edited by Taildragger67; 4th Aug 2006 at 11:49.
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Originally Posted by Taildragger67
I guess my main point remains that the punter was (apparently) asked to do something reasonable by the crew and she refused.
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Originally Posted by Taildragger67
I guess my main point remains that the punter was (apparently) asked to do something reasonable by the crew and she refused.
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Everyone seems to be missing the point here. The fact is that all handluggage -no matter what the size should be stowed under the seat in front for take off and landing because , in the case of an emergency evacuation, such material can easily be kicked into the aisle and become a tripping hazard. Forget about impact speeds depending on the G - forces square rooted into the terminal velocity of an object multiplied by it's weight -the aircraft can be at stadstill and this stuff can bring one evacuating punter down and clog egress to an exit.
Simple really
Simple really
ανώνυμος
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Actually not that simple really. Until the airlines are willing to take responsibility for possession of those items entrusted into their care, people will continue to insist on retaining some control on items that belong to them. As for puting the bag under the seat or in the overhead locker, well I recently flew on a Thai flight and people were allowed to spread their items into other overhead lockers than those over their seats. I must admit that if I hadn't been able to fit my hand luggage into the locker I would have unloaded what was in my way and took on anyone who objected. Fortunately it didn't become an issue for me even though it did for others.
Lets face it the biggest reason for issues boarding a plane is that people want to ensure they get the locker space, and that is truly an airline issue.
Lets face it the biggest reason for issues boarding a plane is that people want to ensure they get the locker space, and that is truly an airline issue.
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If airlines could be entrusted to:
- not lose checked luggage
- keep the crooks out of the baggage handling staff
- not break bag contents
- not take 30 minutes to deliver the baggage to the carousels
then there wouldn't be a need to carry on cameras, laptops, a change of clothes, etc., in the first place.
Why it isn't encouraged for travelers with briefcases, overnight bags, etc., to check them at the gate and receive them again almost immediately after landing is beyond me. It would go a long way towards removing some of the passenger concerns listed above.
- not lose checked luggage
- keep the crooks out of the baggage handling staff
- not break bag contents
- not take 30 minutes to deliver the baggage to the carousels
then there wouldn't be a need to carry on cameras, laptops, a change of clothes, etc., in the first place.
Why it isn't encouraged for travelers with briefcases, overnight bags, etc., to check them at the gate and receive them again almost immediately after landing is beyond me. It would go a long way towards removing some of the passenger concerns listed above.
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Carry on luggage
I couldnt believe some of the earlier posts promoting more carry on luggage. Dont some of the proffessionals here remember the UK emergency landing where those killed or seriously injured suffered their fate simply because of cabin luggage becoming deadly high speed projectiles during the crash landing.
Oh well guess it is all acedemic now. I see today BA and some US airlines in light of the Heathrow security emergency have banned ALL carry on luggage except passports and essential travel documentation....... even female handbags totally banned......and all liquids........ooops there goes the duty free!!!!!!
Oh well guess it is all acedemic now. I see today BA and some US airlines in light of the Heathrow security emergency have banned ALL carry on luggage except passports and essential travel documentation....... even female handbags totally banned......and all liquids........ooops there goes the duty free!!!!!!
