notmyC150v2

This article appears in todays SMH. There are two points that I thought were interesting. Firstly the allegation that current QANTAS pilots are grossly overpaid and are uncompetitive (with whom though is not made clear). Secondly, that it is common that pilots gain the quals and then run off overseas, when from my observations here it would appear to be the other way around.

Any thoughts?

Want to fly for us? That's $33,150, please
Scott Rochfort
July 28, 2006

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AdvertisementFIRST there was the $89 interview charge for flight attendants applying for a job at Jetstar International. Now pilots applying to Jetstar's long-haul arm will have to fork out $150 for an interview and $33,000 to train to fly the airline's Airbus 330-200s.

The Qantas offshoot, which plans to launch flights to Asia in November, said charging pilots for training was "standard".

Jetstar's chief executive, Alan Joyce, said numerous low-cost airlines around the world - including Virgin Blue and Ryanair - required pilots to have previous training to use their aircraft, while other airlines tied pilots to a bond if they received training.

"We've negotiated training at these various simulator centres for very low rates," Mr Joyce said. "We give [pilots] those rates and they pay it and if they decide … they want to go overseas, we haven't incurred a huge amount of costs associated with training and we don't have the complexity of tying people into bonds."

Mr Joyce said Qantas did not charge its pilots to train because - unlike Jetstar - it had a cadet pilot program. Jetstar will use Qantas simulators to train its pilots.

Jetstar said it had received 1000 applications for long-range pilot jobs, largely from its pool of domestic pilots and Australian pilots working for overseas carriers. Mr Joyce said Jetstar's pay rates were "realistic" compared with the higher rates offered by its parent, Qantas, which were "not right".

"They are overpaid. They are not competitive," Mr Joyce said.

The $180,000 annual salary of a Jetstar A330 captain is about $100,000 less than a Qantas captain receives. Jetstar co-pilots will be paid about $100,000 a year.

Mr Joyce said Jetstar's rates of pay were in line with several Asian airlines and "a number of North American carriers that have gone into chapter 11 [bankruptcy]". US Airways was one example.

Low labour costs are the backbone of Jetstar's plans to have a 40 per cent lower cost base than Qantas, and in turn offer much lower fares into Asia.

Jetstar has rejected calls by the Australian International Pilots Association for experienced Qantas pilots to fly its A330s.

Qantas will have four of its A330-200s repainted in Jetstar livery in coming months.

Jetstar has already bypassed the pilots' association in striking a collective agreement with its pilots. The association's general manager, Peter Somerville, said Jetstar's lower wages and policy of charging training for its pilots undermined the culture of goodwill pilots traditionally feel for the airline they work for.

"The legacy carriers take a longer-term view. Jetstar's view is really get in, make a profit and get out," Mr Somerville said.

Jetstar also announced it sold 68,000 tickets to Asia and 14,000 domestic tickets on the first day it put international tickets up for sale on its website. The airline said this was a record.

Ultralights

Is Mr Joyce looking at Bankrupt airlines now for guidence?

SOPS

Hate to say it..its the same sort of talk as "that year" ..watch out mainline!!!!

hotnhigh

Cadets, the backbone of Qantas. Who'd have thought!
I think the bloke must have had dodgy guinness last night.

SOPS

Exactly HotnHigh..its just talk in the media to the great unwashed who dont know better...but, again, if I was mainline, hearing this stuff, I would be very very worried

Dogimed

Mr Joyce said Jetstar's rates of pay were in line with several Asian airlines


Great, now lets get the automotive and textile workers to get paid in line with Asian companies and see how the country likes that.

What a joke...

Dog

SOPS

as I just said Dogimed....if I was mainline.......

airbusthreetwenty

Come one Leane, you should already know the media like to sensationalise a Jetstar story.

Just like most of the posters here on PPRuNe.

CaptainToBe

Have a look at the following link to the Jetstar pilot page. Look at the last line. Is it just me or is something wrong here. Maybe somebody forgot to use the grammar check before posting it on the website.
http://www.bfound.net/detail.aspx?jo...6&CoId=27&rq=1

jaded boiler

QF pilots might need to more carefully consider their vote at the next federal election. The attitude of Qantas senior executives towards mainline pilots' remuneration rates appears to be patently obvious. Three more years of howardochet and his poisonous "work choices" swill, combined with the expiration of any eba signed up to subsequent to March 28 2006, will give management the untrammelled power to unilaterally reduce wages to a level they deem "competitive".

Buster Hyman

Anybody going to bite at that remark?

Argue your point on the merit of what you are doing Mr Joyce and not on what others are doing. Just because it's a "good idea" OS, doesn't mean it's any good here!

BAE146

I've said this before and I'll say it again..............

"Don't buy the endorsement !"

Jetstar ARE starting to sweat in the recruiting department because a lot of applicants can't afford it.

Let's not kid ourselves about bonding agreements. Joyce says Get real Al, there is NO complexity about a bond.

It is fairer than paying money up front because the employee has the choice on whether to stick around or pay the price. Payment up front means he is stuck with the sh!t if Jetstar gets even nastier. This wouldn't suit you and your group would it Al. Rule by intimidation. There's no paying for endorsements or bonds in this part of the world. I'll bet the lads who left EK are going to get one hell of a surprise - what a homecoming gift that'll be!

It's great that aviation does the full circle because I can't wait to see you & Jetstar get yours Joycey!

hotnhigh

Yeah but the new Jetstar ad says it's all about choice.......
You have so many choices with them. Just look at the gold coast and darwin. So many bloody choices. The punters love it!

oldhasbeen

Anyone going to switch over from the Sharks/Knights game to watch a story on QF/ J*......anyone?..... anyone????

aircraft

Buster Hyman,

He means that they are paid in excess of what he considers the market rates for pilots to be. Please QF pilots, don't bother to make postings telling us how valuable you think you are - we have read them before.

By "not competitive" he means there is another option open to him that, based on price, he would rather take. For example, think of the quotes you get from two plumbers to fix your toilet - one for $200 and the other for $150 - the higher priced plumber would be dismissed by most people as "not competitive".

He was speaking to the great unwashed via the media. The media demand short "sound bite" sized explanations. But Buster, surely you understand why they charge for endorsements here in Australia? - it is a frequently discussed subject right here on prune.

RENURPP

Thats really interesting aircraft

If you know so well what he means, maybe you should be his media spokesman, because thats not what he said.

Mud Skipper

So, asking the question again.. Any idea how many external, ie EK etc, pilots they have actually attracted to their idea of a fair pay packet?

No doubt RH and JPC members are going to do CCQ from the A320 as they pushed the deal I guess they think it's good.

Initial 4 aircraft start going soon so I suspect they require 20-25 crews minimum.

Or are the numbers not stacking up for Joyce and he's upset, this may explain why he appears to be lashing out with such an emotional diatribe?

Z Force

The story that I have heard is that there was no where near the amount of applicants that Jetstar are quoting and that they may well have to use contract pilots. Only time will tell.

Buster Hyman

Quote:

For example, think of the quotes you get from two plumbers to fix your toilet - one for $200 and the other for $150 - the higher priced plumber would be dismissed by most people as "not competitive".

Indeed, most people would go the cheaper option everytime. What they fail to ask is "Why is he cheaper? What am I not getting?" The answer is very obvious with Jet* & DJ, you're getting a bus ticket to fly. If that's what you want, and plenty of people seem to, then great, no problem here. Perhaps its best if they never realise the real cost of their "cheap" fare, or plumber. People don't want to know how cheap an iPOD is to produce either. We look at the reports coming out of the factory in China, think "Tsk, tsk Apple" and then carry on listening.

I don't involve myself with the Endorsement argument as it's really not affecting me, so I keep my observations very broad. Whilst I don't think its "right", I also think that if the modern wannabee is happy to pay it, who am I to interfere. Stating that QF (and I guess former AN) are overpaid is a gross misrepresentation of the facts. They were paid according to wage negotiation. The employees & the employer agreed to the rate. Acting like a sniper from the sidelines is a sad indictment on the Australian aviation industry today.

As for his sound bite...well, it's just a pathetic statement from him. He sounds just like Bratt whingeing to a teacher on the playground. It seems that the industry is turning into a Lemming colony.

BAE146

Z force

What are contract pilots ? If you are referring to agency pilots it's highly unlikely they will be attracted to Jetstar as the money won't be there. They certainly wouldn't pay for a rating, then give Parc or Rishworths a percentage of wages and pay Oz tax.

Al knows the fix - drop the endorsement cost and bond the crews. You'll then get your pilots.

P.S. I'ld come and work as your financial advisor Joycey but I'm having too much fun in the sand at the moment and plus you couldn't pay me enough !