Qantas Capt declines moot long haul duty time extension call?
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Sydney
Posts: 731
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
CX, just to clear up what is possible here; LAX-AKL would be a three pilot crew. Max planned duty hours for such a crew is 14 hours with a contractual elective extension to 16 hours.
Depending on where the diversion to HNL took place from, (and depending if the rest of the story is true) then it may have been possible to fly to AKL in over 14 hours but under 16 duty hours which would have required the crew to agree.
I have zero info on this story but if the crew had been faced with a two sector, all night flight to 16 hours then I can see why they would have had reservations.
For the record, sector times are LAX-HNL (straight line) 4.35 hours.
HNL-AKL 7.35 hour.
You can add 1.5 hours pre and post flight duties plus taxi-time, plus any time spent on the ground at HNL to that.
Depending on where the diversion to HNL took place from, (and depending if the rest of the story is true) then it may have been possible to fly to AKL in over 14 hours but under 16 duty hours which would have required the crew to agree.
I have zero info on this story but if the crew had been faced with a two sector, all night flight to 16 hours then I can see why they would have had reservations.
For the record, sector times are LAX-HNL (straight line) 4.35 hours.
HNL-AKL 7.35 hour.
You can add 1.5 hours pre and post flight duties plus taxi-time, plus any time spent on the ground at HNL to that.
CAO 48
OK, here's the..let's continue..clause
3.8 Provided the provisions of section 48.0, subsection 1 are observed, a tour of duty, commenced in accordance with paragraph 3.5 of this subsection, may be extended at the discretion of the pilot in command as follows:
(a) turbo-jet aircraft, 20 hours
and here's the..got ya..clause!
1.4 Notwithstanding anything contained in these Orders, a flight crew member shall not fly, and an operator shall not require that person to fly if either the flight crew member is suffering from, or, considering the circumstances of the particular flight to be undertaken, is likely to suffer from, fatigue or illness which may affect judgement or performance to the extent that safety may be impaired.
OK, here's the..let's continue..clause
3.8 Provided the provisions of section 48.0, subsection 1 are observed, a tour of duty, commenced in accordance with paragraph 3.5 of this subsection, may be extended at the discretion of the pilot in command as follows:
(a) turbo-jet aircraft, 20 hours
and here's the..got ya..clause!
1.4 Notwithstanding anything contained in these Orders, a flight crew member shall not fly, and an operator shall not require that person to fly if either the flight crew member is suffering from, or, considering the circumstances of the particular flight to be undertaken, is likely to suffer from, fatigue or illness which may affect judgement or performance to the extent that safety may be impaired.
Nunc est bibendum
LAX-AKL currently running as four man crew. Directive at the moment to try and get the block time under 12:30- achievable some times, not at others. (I suspect the company would be happy with more than 65% 
) Current planned TOD is 14 hours.
All, as others have pointed out extension beyond 16 is optional. To work some (very) rough figures, consider the following. Closest we got to HNL the other night was about 1000nm. Therefore, if they diverted from abeam HNL (otherwise LAX would have probably been a bit closer) they are looking at a flight time in excess of five hours- probably closer to at least 5 1/2. Get on ground, unload sick punter, unload bags, re-fuel, etc....an hour at least. Then, blast off again and go to AKL. Half of the tech crew would have had about two hours of rest in the first nine(ish) hours tour of duty. The others would possibly have had nil. The remaining tour of duty is going to be another8-9 in front of them with rest on that being about three hours each. So, a back of the clock 16-18 hour tour of duty with max of about four hours rest for one of the crew with a significant diversion and associated 'crap' along the way. It's hard enough to do a 16 plus hour duty when it's planned (LAX-SYD, LAX-MEL) or somewhat expected (SIN-LHR with the inevitable ATC delay) but with the added 'crap' that they went through that night....well I can certainly understand taking the 'safe' option and pulling the pin.
Would a fully engaged pilot make a different decision? Hard to say. We're very good at praising crew who decide to push on but shouldn't we also praise the crew who make the 'tough' call to get off in the belief that they won't be fit in a bunch of hours time!
) Current planned TOD is 14 hours. All, as others have pointed out extension beyond 16 is optional. To work some (very) rough figures, consider the following. Closest we got to HNL the other night was about 1000nm. Therefore, if they diverted from abeam HNL (otherwise LAX would have probably been a bit closer) they are looking at a flight time in excess of five hours- probably closer to at least 5 1/2. Get on ground, unload sick punter, unload bags, re-fuel, etc....an hour at least. Then, blast off again and go to AKL. Half of the tech crew would have had about two hours of rest in the first nine(ish) hours tour of duty. The others would possibly have had nil. The remaining tour of duty is going to be another8-9 in front of them with rest on that being about three hours each. So, a back of the clock 16-18 hour tour of duty with max of about four hours rest for one of the crew with a significant diversion and associated 'crap' along the way. It's hard enough to do a 16 plus hour duty when it's planned (LAX-SYD, LAX-MEL) or somewhat expected (SIN-LHR with the inevitable ATC delay) but with the added 'crap' that they went through that night....well I can certainly understand taking the 'safe' option and pulling the pin.
Would a fully engaged pilot make a different decision? Hard to say. We're very good at praising crew who decide to push on but shouldn't we also praise the crew who make the 'tough' call to get off in the belief that they won't be fit in a bunch of hours time!
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: cyprus
Posts: 114
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The Mix
What has the weather been like in AKL lately?Fog?
What would have been the arrival time into AKL?.
What is the alternate to AKL?
Always allow for the worst case scenario.
You leave HNL heading for AKL.You are notified its closed due fog.
Lets start calculating the posssible tour of duty.
Possibly 20 hrs plus?
Decision ...dont go
What would have been the arrival time into AKL?.
What is the alternate to AKL?
Always allow for the worst case scenario.
You leave HNL heading for AKL.You are notified its closed due fog.
Lets start calculating the posssible tour of duty.
Possibly 20 hrs plus?
Decision ...dont go
Nunc est bibendum
Originally Posted by cartexchange
For goodness sake there is no way ANYONE can be stood done for not extending.
.
.
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Just visiting
Posts: 124
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
And this is exactly whats happening in NZ with MT Cook, company has operated for years on the good will of its crew. Now that its gone all poo is hitting the fan!
Maybe the revolotion is beginning
Maybe the revolotion is beginning
I find it interesting that aviation has almost gone full circle. Pressure from management to fly in unsuitable (or dangerous) conditions, people getting fired for refusing to fly etc is what started unions in the aviation business.
And here we are in 2006 with management attitudes going back to those of the 1920's!
And here we are in 2006 with management attitudes going back to those of the 1920's!
Don Quixote Impersonator
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: Australia
Age: 77
Posts: 3,403
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Keg
The "tough call" in my very humble opinion is the REAL command decision and what they get paid the big bucks for.
We are actually paid largely to evaluate and make decisions NOT to "do things" when often to just "lets go see".
is the simplest/easiest/most effortless/and so on way.
Fully engaged or not one must wonder at the folly of "going" given that the assumption would "have" to rest 100% on the remainder of the flight being 100% trouble free.
Dunno 'bout you, but I can just about see through the Swiss cheese from here.
Pilot engagement per se with any employer is also a slippery road to hell.
Dispassionate "engagement" is a very tricky balance and relies in total trust by the employer in those judgements and vice versa. Maybe I've gone round in circles here, but you know what I mean.
We're very good at praising crew who decide to push on but shouldn't we also praise the crew who make the 'tough' call to get off in the belief that they won't be fit in a bunch of hours time!
We are actually paid largely to evaluate and make decisions NOT to "do things" when often to just "lets go see".
is the simplest/easiest/most effortless/and so on way. Fully engaged or not one must wonder at the folly of "going" given that the assumption would "have" to rest 100% on the remainder of the flight being 100% trouble free.
Dunno 'bout you, but I can just about see through the Swiss cheese from here.
Pilot engagement per se with any employer is also a slippery road to hell.
Dispassionate "engagement" is a very tricky balance and relies in total trust by the employer in those judgements and vice versa. Maybe I've gone round in circles here, but you know what I mean.
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Australia
Posts: 811
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Although the company can't stand someone down for not extending, you can't base your decision to extend or not on 'engagement'. Just like the company may invariably give a reason for something else completely, so should you! 
Registered User **
Join Date: May 2005
Location: The Ultimate Crew Rest....
Age: 69
Posts: 2,346
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Quote from Gaunty "Dunno 'bout you, but I can just about see through the Swiss cheese from here."
Easily fixed ...change swiss to cheddar and eradicate any (the) holes in our management at the same time..
Easily fixed ...change swiss to cheddar and eradicate any (the) holes in our management at the same time..
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Australia
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Stop 
!
Facts, without emotion or judgement:
Divert to Honolulu (HNL) due to suspected Deep Vein Thrombosis, as discussed with doctor onboard who works in an Emergency Room.
QF26 Report time: 0340Z, Standdown: 1908Z (LAX-HNL-LAX).
HNL-Auckland (AKL) = "planned" 7:45mins.
Takeoff LAX 05:20Z, 11:33Z landing HNL (ie. 1:33am!!)
HNL-LAX = 4:38.
Wx at AKL = wet rwy X-Wind limits, frontal system, with possible divert to Christchurch (CHC).
4 x pilot crew.
16:28 actual crew duty LAX-HNL-LAX + 3:07 (7:45 - 4:38) extra flight time + 0:25 taxi allowance + possible divert (military exercise airspace in Hawaii and/or divert to CHC?) = 20 + hours.
Not hard to add these up!
Delta Airlines had just dumped over 200 pax in terminal for whatever reason; only 18 spare hotel rooms in town (from the "Airline Concierge"); 410 pax on QF26 + 17 crew. Nil services open in terminal.
Nil extra crew available to meet aircraft at Nadi, Fifi (NFFN), for PHNL-NFFN-NZAA operations.
!Facts, without emotion or judgement:
Divert to Honolulu (HNL) due to suspected Deep Vein Thrombosis, as discussed with doctor onboard who works in an Emergency Room.
QF26 Report time: 0340Z, Standdown: 1908Z (LAX-HNL-LAX).
HNL-Auckland (AKL) = "planned" 7:45mins.
Takeoff LAX 05:20Z, 11:33Z landing HNL (ie. 1:33am!!)
HNL-LAX = 4:38.
Wx at AKL = wet rwy X-Wind limits, frontal system, with possible divert to Christchurch (CHC).
4 x pilot crew.
16:28 actual crew duty LAX-HNL-LAX + 3:07 (7:45 - 4:38) extra flight time + 0:25 taxi allowance + possible divert (military exercise airspace in Hawaii and/or divert to CHC?) = 20 + hours.
Not hard to add these up! Delta Airlines had just dumped over 200 pax in terminal for whatever reason; only 18 spare hotel rooms in town (from the "Airline Concierge"); 410 pax on QF26 + 17 crew. Nil services open in terminal.
Nil extra crew available to meet aircraft at Nadi, Fifi (NFFN), for PHNL-NFFN-NZAA operations.
Last edited by Shodan; 19th Jul 2006 at 21:33.
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: SE Aus
Posts: 129
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sydney s/h,
Sorry if I'm telling you some of the abbreviations you already know, but here goes:
HNL = Honolulu
You know what DVT and and ER are...
LAX = Los Angeles
AKL = Auckland
Wx = weather
rwy XW = runway crosswind
CHC = Christchurch
NFFN = Nadi, Fiji
PHNL = Honolulu
NZAA = Auckland
You notice that airfields can be referred to as either a 3- or 4-letter identifier (PHNL = HNL = Honolulu).
The 3-letter identifier is known as the IATA (International Air Transport Association) airport code. It is commonly used in airline-type applications like crew rosters, airline timetables, bag tags and so on. Military organisations are less likely to use these codes.
The 4-letter code is the ICAO (International Civil Aviation Organisation) code, and is used more in operational-type functions like weather, NOTAMs (Notices to Airman), and flight planning. ICAO codes are used universally by all aviation organisations: airline, military, government etc.
They aren't always easy to associate... don't be fooled by the similarity between PHNL and HNL. Perth = YPPH = PTH, London Heathrow = EGLL = LHR.
The IATA codes are sometimes difficult to pin to an airport without some usable directory or database. Sometimes they resemble the city name (Sydney = SYD, Melbourne = MEL), but sometimes are less similar (Vancouver = YVR).
The ICAO codes are more global in their nature. It isn't too hard to pick the region, but harder to pinpoint. For example codes starting with:
K*** are mostly in USA
C*** Canada
P*** Pacific USA (eg Hawaii, Alaska)
N*** Pacific (eg Fiji, Samoa, Tahiti, New Zealand, Vanuatu, New Caledonia)
Y*** Australia
A*** Papua New Guinea/Solomon Islands
W*** South East Asia
E*** Europe
F*** Africa (I think)
Additionally, sub regions can be identified, for example:
WM** = South East Asia (Malaysia)
WI** = South East Asia (Indonesia)
EG** = Europe (Great Britain)
ED** = Europe (Deutschland - Germany)
NZ** = Pacific (New Zealand)
NF** = Pacific (Fiji)
Of course, there are many confusing exceptions...
A quick Google search revealed this site : http://www.activitae.com/airbase/icaoCode.htm
It is for decoding or encoding ICAO codes. Search for "IATA Decode" and you will find many similar products...
Hope this helps...
VI
PS - Sorry to all for massive bracket creep... this thread had quietened down anyway.
Sorry if I'm telling you some of the abbreviations you already know, but here goes:
HNL = Honolulu
You know what DVT and and ER are...
LAX = Los Angeles
AKL = Auckland
Wx = weather
rwy XW = runway crosswind
CHC = Christchurch
NFFN = Nadi, Fiji
PHNL = Honolulu
NZAA = Auckland
You notice that airfields can be referred to as either a 3- or 4-letter identifier (PHNL = HNL = Honolulu).
The 3-letter identifier is known as the IATA (International Air Transport Association) airport code. It is commonly used in airline-type applications like crew rosters, airline timetables, bag tags and so on. Military organisations are less likely to use these codes.
The 4-letter code is the ICAO (International Civil Aviation Organisation) code, and is used more in operational-type functions like weather, NOTAMs (Notices to Airman), and flight planning. ICAO codes are used universally by all aviation organisations: airline, military, government etc.
They aren't always easy to associate... don't be fooled by the similarity between PHNL and HNL. Perth = YPPH = PTH, London Heathrow = EGLL = LHR.
The IATA codes are sometimes difficult to pin to an airport without some usable directory or database. Sometimes they resemble the city name (Sydney = SYD, Melbourne = MEL), but sometimes are less similar (Vancouver = YVR).
The ICAO codes are more global in their nature. It isn't too hard to pick the region, but harder to pinpoint. For example codes starting with:
K*** are mostly in USA
C*** Canada
P*** Pacific USA (eg Hawaii, Alaska)
N*** Pacific (eg Fiji, Samoa, Tahiti, New Zealand, Vanuatu, New Caledonia)
Y*** Australia
A*** Papua New Guinea/Solomon Islands
W*** South East Asia
E*** Europe
F*** Africa (I think)
Additionally, sub regions can be identified, for example:
WM** = South East Asia (Malaysia)
WI** = South East Asia (Indonesia)
EG** = Europe (Great Britain)
ED** = Europe (Deutschland - Germany)
NZ** = Pacific (New Zealand)
NF** = Pacific (Fiji)
Of course, there are many confusing exceptions...
A quick Google search revealed this site : http://www.activitae.com/airbase/icaoCode.htm
It is for decoding or encoding ICAO codes. Search for "IATA Decode" and you will find many similar products...
Hope this helps...
VI
PS - Sorry to all for massive bracket creep... this thread had quietened down anyway.
Last edited by Victor India; 18th Jul 2006 at 14:53.