Jetstar pilot life expectancy
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Icarus obviously has nothing to do with aviation. If this is not the case then the simplistic calculations are surely a result of stupidity.
In addition to the 42 days leave are compulsory course/ground school/simulator/renewal days. Usually at least another 14 days. Therefore only 10 months remaining in which to fly 900+ hours. This is of course forgetting that even pilots have the odd day sick.
Now lets not forget Sign on Time 1:00 hour prior to departure +30 minutes per turnaround, barely time to breathe before next departure and 15 minutes of duty after arrival. So the "4hours" per day ends up at closer to 9 hours of duty. But lets not forget the many days that include 7 hours plus flying plus the above mentioned buffers.
I am not complaining, as I chose this profession. It simply annoys me when ignorant people quote crap that they haven't the foggiest about.
It is still not a bad days work, if you love it.
In addition to the 42 days leave are compulsory course/ground school/simulator/renewal days. Usually at least another 14 days. Therefore only 10 months remaining in which to fly 900+ hours. This is of course forgetting that even pilots have the odd day sick.
Now lets not forget Sign on Time 1:00 hour prior to departure +30 minutes per turnaround, barely time to breathe before next departure and 15 minutes of duty after arrival. So the "4hours" per day ends up at closer to 9 hours of duty. But lets not forget the many days that include 7 hours plus flying plus the above mentioned buffers.
I am not complaining, as I chose this profession. It simply annoys me when ignorant people quote crap that they haven't the foggiest about.
It is still not a bad days work, if you love it.
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42 days annual leave!
How many pilots have had their leave either assigned or cancelled to suit the peaks and troughs?
A reasonable management technique to cover planning inadequacies, but is it reasonable fatigue management when you are achieving 900 plus hours each year out of the pilot group?
No amount of money can reduce fatigue!
How many pilots have had their leave either assigned or cancelled to suit the peaks and troughs?
A reasonable management technique to cover planning inadequacies, but is it reasonable fatigue management when you are achieving 900 plus hours each year out of the pilot group?
No amount of money can reduce fatigue!
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900/year?
oh what i'd give for 900/year.
some of us are looking into the bowels of aeroplanes for near on 2500hrs/year....oh, minus leave of course - 160hrs/year - so that's only 2340hrs/year.
no wonder i want to go flying
some of us are looking into the bowels of aeroplanes for near on 2500hrs/year....oh, minus leave of course - 160hrs/year - so that's only 2340hrs/year.
no wonder i want to go flying
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900 flying hours over 10 months is not so hard. Did it for years in my youth. The only thing better than that would be 900 hours in 9 months and have 3 off. Once I did 1000 with a foreign operator in just under 10 months and had a great time with the enforced leave for the rest of the year. As long as the hours can be flown at civilised hours and not lots of late nights or early mornings back to back. You gotta love your leave and treat it as sacrosanct. I always, always took it, never let them pay me filthy money instead. Hence I am still healthy, touch wood. Lots of American operators get 1000 or more and only allow 2 weeks leave. Now that's hard and potentially life-threatening and shame on the FAA for allowing it.
Any pilot who sells leave back to the Company is letting the side down big time. Management only see this as proof we are driven by greed and destroys the safety argument.
IMHO it it is not the flying hours that makes or breaks the spirit, it is all the duty time and crewing patterns that need to be factored in by the health experts and fatigue management systems.
When fatigue gets dangerous pilots absolutely owe it to themselves to go sick or go elsewhere. One of the few times that I ever flew when seriously fatigued I made an error of judgement that could have been expensive for the operator. While it might have served them right, it would not have looked good on the resume so I resolved to just go sick if I ever got too tired again.
Any pilot who sells leave back to the Company is letting the side down big time. Management only see this as proof we are driven by greed and destroys the safety argument.
IMHO it it is not the flying hours that makes or breaks the spirit, it is all the duty time and crewing patterns that need to be factored in by the health experts and fatigue management systems.
When fatigue gets dangerous pilots absolutely owe it to themselves to go sick or go elsewhere. One of the few times that I ever flew when seriously fatigued I made an error of judgement that could have been expensive for the operator. While it might have served them right, it would not have looked good on the resume so I resolved to just go sick if I ever got too tired again.
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Lots of luck trying to do 900hrs a year on the route network/schedule that is proposed.
Try closer to 750hrs a year as a starting point.
While your at it ,how is Joyce going to sell tickets in Japan .
Internet sales won't work.The only way to sell tickets in Japan is through travel agents.
Once again lots of luck.
More and more JetStar is appearing to be nothing more than a short term vessel to screw down the costs in the primary carrier, Qantas.
Try closer to 750hrs a year as a starting point.
While your at it ,how is Joyce going to sell tickets in Japan .
Internet sales won't work.The only way to sell tickets in Japan is through travel agents.
Once again lots of luck.
More and more JetStar is appearing to be nothing more than a short term vessel to screw down the costs in the primary carrier, Qantas.
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With the A380 delays and the a/c changes due to one B744 u/s in JFK. Will J* Int get all the A330-200 at this point in time, or will they lease more? Just a thought after a long day and a few drinks
Icarus obviously has nothing to do with aviation.
If this is not the case then the simplistic calculations are surely a result of stupidity.
3 holer said...
Doing 900 hours plus p.a. equates to over 90 per month. (Assuming 42 days leave p.a.)
fistfokker if I agree with you that sim days, ground school etc takes up two weeks then we are left with 10 months to fly (minus sick days) agreed? (Q: Is sim time part of the 900 hours anyway?) So 900 hours divided by 10 months is 90 hours per month, agreed?
Given that most months have about 21 working days (assuming 5 days on 2 off in a week) then 90 hours a month averages out at 4.3 hours per day. Didn't I say
Say four hours a day(average) over a five day week
We are talking flying hours, stick time, block time whatever you wish to call it. I thought it was too bleeding obvious to add in pre and post flight duty, that is a different subject.
nzmarty brings in a touch of the real world I think. Perspective is everything.
ASG
A statement like what?
Ninety hours a month is an average of about 4.3 hours per day? Outrageous, fancy making such ridiculous and clearly flawed statements. Stone him, stone him...
What happens if they crash and it was caused by fatigue and it becomes known the boss made a staement like that?
Ninety hours a month is an average of about 4.3 hours per day? Outrageous, fancy making such ridiculous and clearly flawed statements. Stone him, stone him...
Icarus2001
I believe he meant this statement. posted by eagleman on page one. Apparantly refers to a comment joyce made at a meeting involving DAME's.
He said he expects JQ pilots to burn out in 6 to 7 years, but he is not worried, they will be easy to replace.
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1000hrs a year looks manageable if your in an office, with access to the amenities to make your day comfortable. id say the 6-7 years is more like 2-3. Especially if your an older individual!!. false economy i think youd call it.
A power nap could save your life. cheers DM
A power nap could save your life. cheers DM
I think the management teams see it as they see their own day. Work 9 to 5 is an 8hr day.
What they don’t see is the lunch brake they get, the numerous coffee/smoke breaks, the fact that a pilot day may start at almost any hr of the day or night. Even the ability to get up and walk around for a bit.
'I work an 8hr day driving my desk, the pilots should be able to do the same driving the plane.'
What they don’t see is the lunch brake they get, the numerous coffee/smoke breaks, the fact that a pilot day may start at almost any hr of the day or night. Even the ability to get up and walk around for a bit.
'I work an 8hr day driving my desk, the pilots should be able to do the same driving the plane.'
Thread Starter
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AJ does not believe fatique is an issue. Everyone is tired at the end of the day!! Besides, as Big Bruce of BCG fame said, "I put in more hours that any of our pilots every day".
It is tragic that firstly, CASA issues the exemption to airlines that have no fatigue programs in place but secondly, does not bother to audit their application.
The ATSB report into any JQ accident will mirror three previously issued reports
It is tragic that firstly, CASA issues the exemption to airlines that have no fatigue programs in place but secondly, does not bother to audit their application.
The ATSB report into any JQ accident will mirror three previously issued reports
Ansett 747
Monarch
Seaview
These reports had two common threads -Monarch
Seaview
Incompetent CASA oversight
Management incompetency in the airlines concerned
So much for learning lessons from the past!!!!Management incompetency in the airlines concerned
Eagleman
Why don't J* blokes do something about it? Fair enough if you don't have the clout, unity or balls. But stop blaming everyone else for your woes.
It's the fault of Qantas pilots, it's CASA's fault, it's Joyce's fault, it's the ex-Ansett pilots fault.........etc etc.
You have been quick to sign off on any deal for your own gain. When the stark reality hits, it's everyone elses fault.
Why don't J* blokes do something about it? Fair enough if you don't have the clout, unity or balls. But stop blaming everyone else for your woes.
It's the fault of Qantas pilots, it's CASA's fault, it's Joyce's fault, it's the ex-Ansett pilots fault.........etc etc.
You have been quick to sign off on any deal for your own gain. When the stark reality hits, it's everyone elses fault.
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A little thing called the LAW.
1.4 Notwithstanding anything contained in these Orders, a flight crew member shall not fly, and an operator shall not require that person to fly if either the flight crew member is suffering from, or, considering the circumstances of the particular flight to be undertaken, is likely to suffer from, fatigue or illness which may affect judgement or performance to the extent that safety may be impaired.
Unless AJ or GD now has more authority than the Attorney General, this debate is just playing AJ's game. Move on.
Unless AJ or GD now has more authority than the Attorney General, this debate is just playing AJ's game. Move on.
Originally Posted by Blue-Footed Boobie
So much for a duty of care towards pilots and the future of Aussie aviation.
It doesn't matter if J* pilots burn out in 6 years. Who cares? Most probably can't go anywhere else anyway- perhaps a job in a ragged LCC in China or India- same money but no tax.
When you were undercutting everyone and signing off on below average CofS, you were all boasting how wonderful avation was. Not so now eh.
Welcome to reality. Your reality!
