US pilot salaries . . . portend of things to come?
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I certainly don't like the fact that fellow aviation professionals "dobbed" them in, but I'm glad they were caught cheating the system.
Hard to say who's the lowest. Silvertailed tax cheats; no better than grubby welfare cheats, sponges, workcover cheats - robbing the system. Or, jealous, high and mightier than thou, I can't have it neither can you so I'll dob you in - fellow aviators.
I think extortion tactics would have been a much better option.
Hard to say who's the lowest. Silvertailed tax cheats; no better than grubby welfare cheats, sponges, workcover cheats - robbing the system. Or, jealous, high and mightier than thou, I can't have it neither can you so I'll dob you in - fellow aviators.
I think extortion tactics would have been a much better option.
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Originally Posted by qfcainer
metro do you think we all just walk into qualified jobs in qantas ?
finish school, move out on your own, survive on $150 a week as a first year apprentice, less then the dole! try less then $10000 for my first group certificate!
finish school, move out on your own, survive on $150 a week as a first year apprentice, less then the dole! try less then $10000 for my first group certificate!
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Originally Posted by 757manipulator
you get paid less because your skill set is worth less than theirs, get used to it.
The only reason you can achieve those wages is due to having higher bargaining power with the ability to ground an airline,we don't .
It takes alot longer to train us LAME's than you pilots and the only real attribute of a pilot is the ability to remain calm and stay focused on the job in a crisis, but with 75% of air crashes being pilot errors it seems a few of you aren't doing it very well.
And yes it sounds a long hard ,expensive road to get a captaincy, as is the road to becoming a type rated LAME, especially as Airlines aren’t paying for training like they used to.
A LAME is responsible for ensuring ALL systems on departure are operating to a standard with all boxes ticked which is alot considering the complexity and integration of the systems and time schedule of turn arounds.
Just remember if we forget, you could die!
If you want to earn the dollars as a LAME, head overseas, many Euro airlines and MRO's are paying around $100AUD/hr for contract LAME's with it only heading up as more and more aircraft are produced.
At least you get to go home every night, sleep in your own bed and don't have to sit in a cramped enclosure listening to hours of endless piffle from narcissistic flight crew.
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One part of the original article still has me intrigued . . . that the so called 'low cost carrier' Southwest Airlines is now the highest payer of the all the majors. Is this an aberration or an indication of success of the LCC business model?
"The overall salary leader among US passenger carriers is Southwest Airlines, whose 12-year 737 captains earn $186 per hr., according to JP Morgan. Among legacy network carriers, the leader is American Airlines at $161. At the bottom is US Airways at $125, followed by United at $131 and America West at $134. US Airways and America West pilots are in discussions about merging seniority lists".
"The overall salary leader among US passenger carriers is Southwest Airlines, whose 12-year 737 captains earn $186 per hr., according to JP Morgan. Among legacy network carriers, the leader is American Airlines at $161. At the bottom is US Airways at $125, followed by United at $131 and America West at $134. US Airways and America West pilots are in discussions about merging seniority lists".
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Sorry INCOGNITO....I guess you dint read so good
Where did I mention higher?...or better?...or more skilled?
All I said was WORTH more..for whatever reason you can think of, thats just how it is
Oh yeah and the difference is similar in the places you talk about getting $100AUD per hour. To be honest I couldn't care less what a LAME earns, I'm ultimately concerned that they get the job done on time, on budget, and without ANY compromise on safety..what they get paid beyond that is a function of their employer, the market, and ultimately what they are worth.
Paid for a higher skillset,you must be joking,if that was the case you would be struggling to make the $150/wk of a 1st year apprentice at Q,your not paid to know the aircraft,only to fly it.
The only reason you can achieve those wages is due to having higher bargaining power with the ability to ground an airline,we don't
The only reason you can achieve those wages is due to having higher bargaining power with the ability to ground an airline,we don't
All I said was WORTH more..for whatever reason you can think of, thats just how it is
Oh yeah and the difference is similar in the places you talk about getting $100AUD per hour. To be honest I couldn't care less what a LAME earns, I'm ultimately concerned that they get the job done on time, on budget, and without ANY compromise on safety..what they get paid beyond that is a function of their employer, the market, and ultimately what they are worth.
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The bottom line for EVERYONE is if you don't like what your terms and conditions are then withdraw your labour.
Most people at QF have either spent years struggling to get there or been there for many,many years and are unwilling to move on for various reasons.
Whilever there is a large supply of workers willing to join QF ranks and a small amount of people leaving, wages will be driven down.
757 manipulator, you should be concerned what the LAME fixing your plane earns. Do you want a highly paid,highly skilled professional who knows he's done the job correctly or a low paid,low skilled labourer who THINKS he probably has done the tasks correctly based on his limited training. They are both prepared to sign your aircraft as airworthy but which one would you rather get. You'll probably never know - until some thing goes wrong and then we get to see how good your training was.
Most people at QF have either spent years struggling to get there or been there for many,many years and are unwilling to move on for various reasons.
Whilever there is a large supply of workers willing to join QF ranks and a small amount of people leaving, wages will be driven down.
757 manipulator, you should be concerned what the LAME fixing your plane earns. Do you want a highly paid,highly skilled professional who knows he's done the job correctly or a low paid,low skilled labourer who THINKS he probably has done the tasks correctly based on his limited training. They are both prepared to sign your aircraft as airworthy but which one would you rather get. You'll probably never know - until some thing goes wrong and then we get to see how good your training was.
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757 manipulator, you should be concerned what the LAME fixing your plane earns. Do you want a highly paid,highly skilled professional who knows he's done the job correctly or a low paid,low skilled labourer who THINKS he probably has done the tasks correctly based on his limited training. They are both prepared to sign your aircraft as airworthy but which one would you rather get. You'll probably never know - until some thing goes wrong and then we get to see how good your training was.
I'm ultimately concerned that they get the job done on time, on budget, and without ANY compromise on safety..what they get paid beyond that is a function of their employer, the market, and ultimately what they are worth.
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“you should be concerned what the LAME fixing your plane earns. Do you want a highly paid,highly skilled professional who knows he's done the job correctly or a low paid,low skilled labourer who THINKS he probably has done the tasks correctly based on his limited training. They are both prepared to sign your aircraft as airworthy but which one would you rather get.”
What about this.
I want a professional correctly rated mechanic to conduct all legally required repairs to my aircraft adhering to all requirements of the manufacturer, the airline and the governing body having undergone a training course approved by the governing body and having been issued with the correct license that is current. I cannot ask for any more than this.
How much this engineer is paid is not my business.
All engineers in Australia (like under the FAA) operate under the umbrella of the same governing body and should be “professional” and should do the job “correctly” and should have been trained to legal minimum standards.
If this is not the case, then the governing body have been remiss in their duties of providing oversight and should be held accountable.
What about this.
I want a professional correctly rated mechanic to conduct all legally required repairs to my aircraft adhering to all requirements of the manufacturer, the airline and the governing body having undergone a training course approved by the governing body and having been issued with the correct license that is current. I cannot ask for any more than this.
How much this engineer is paid is not my business.
All engineers in Australia (like under the FAA) operate under the umbrella of the same governing body and should be “professional” and should do the job “correctly” and should have been trained to legal minimum standards.
If this is not the case, then the governing body have been remiss in their duties of providing oversight and should be held accountable.
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Originally Posted by INCOGNIT0
Paid for a higher skillset,you must be joking,if that was the case you would be struggling to make the $150/wk of a 1st year apprentice at Q,your not paid to know the aircraft,only to fly it.
The only reason you can achieve those wages is due to having higher bargaining power with the ability to ground an airline,we don't .
It takes alot longer to train us LAME's than you pilots and the only real attribute of a pilot is the ability to remain calm and stay focused on the job in a crisis, but with 75% of air crashes being pilot errors it seems a few of you aren't doing it very well.
And yes it sounds a long hard ,expensive road to get a captaincy, as is the road to becoming a type rated LAME, especially as Airlines aren’t paying for training like they used to.
.
The only reason you can achieve those wages is due to having higher bargaining power with the ability to ground an airline,we don't .
It takes alot longer to train us LAME's than you pilots and the only real attribute of a pilot is the ability to remain calm and stay focused on the job in a crisis, but with 75% of air crashes being pilot errors it seems a few of you aren't doing it very well.
And yes it sounds a long hard ,expensive road to get a captaincy, as is the road to becoming a type rated LAME, especially as Airlines aren’t paying for training like they used to.
.
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there is a saying in the maintenance world- "you can have it fast, cheap or right. Pick two!"
I don't think we need to rehash the age old pilot/maintainer pay debate but given the way maintenance engineers at Air NZ just got blackmailed into accepting lower benefits, pilots will logically be next for the rubber glove as Management look to contain costs rather than charge punters the true cost of travel.
RF quoted some engineers as earning 100k, one of my mates did this by working three of his four days off(seven out of eightdays) but he had no life for a year, was it worth it for the bragging rights?
I don't think we need to rehash the age old pilot/maintainer pay debate but given the way maintenance engineers at Air NZ just got blackmailed into accepting lower benefits, pilots will logically be next for the rubber glove as Management look to contain costs rather than charge punters the true cost of travel.
RF quoted some engineers as earning 100k, one of my mates did this by working three of his four days off(seven out of eightdays) but he had no life for a year, was it worth it for the bragging rights?
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Pionair, you make a good point....I cant however stop myself thinking that whilst AirNZ is undoubtably a well run ship in terms of quality and workmanship (2 of my bestest buddies on this earth work in those sheds in Mangere) there are some VERY VERY outmoded working practises still taking place there.
In comparison to where I work, and ostensibly on the Boeing side of things. We operate an almost identical fleet to AirNZ (apart from the 757). Our guys complete engine changes 20% quicker (straight out of flight Internationals MRO surveys) with more restrictive heath and safety policies. They also wrote the book on 747 "D" checks..and have Boeing re-writing B777 maintenance tech plans because of the data we collect.
The point Im making is that NZ, and QF have yet to realise (although they are beginning to at considerable cost and pain) that maintenance is a global industry..the days are gone where it was a closed shop. Im afraid my mates are gonna have to get used to that.
In comparison to where I work, and ostensibly on the Boeing side of things. We operate an almost identical fleet to AirNZ (apart from the 757). Our guys complete engine changes 20% quicker (straight out of flight Internationals MRO surveys) with more restrictive heath and safety policies. They also wrote the book on 747 "D" checks..and have Boeing re-writing B777 maintenance tech plans because of the data we collect.
The point Im making is that NZ, and QF have yet to realise (although they are beginning to at considerable cost and pain) that maintenance is a global industry..the days are gone where it was a closed shop. Im afraid my mates are gonna have to get used to that.
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Originally Posted by 757manipulator
Where did I mention higher?...or better?...or more skilled?
you get paid less because your skill set is worth less than theirs
I am not denying that a pilot has skills just not as diverse as a LAME and I answered your higher earnings by saying
The only reason you can achieve those wages is due to having higher bargaining power with the ability to ground an airline,we don't .
I would recommend you re-educate yourself on the requirements of a pilot.
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Obviously very limited experience, if any with that comment.
Try and autoland in bad weather ??? Fog maybe, but try using autoland in strong gusty winds, and I guarantee you will be filling in a lot of forms after that one!
An operator tried that in SYD some years back, and went on a cross country short cut on the grass!
Respect needs to be given to both sides for their roles in Aviation, I always thought it was a team effort!
Try not to comment on the particular aspects of our Job, unless you have the experience to back it up!
Evy
Try and autoland in bad weather ??? Fog maybe, but try using autoland in strong gusty winds, and I guarantee you will be filling in a lot of forms after that one!
An operator tried that in SYD some years back, and went on a cross country short cut on the grass!
Respect needs to be given to both sides for their roles in Aviation, I always thought it was a team effort!
Try not to comment on the particular aspects of our Job, unless you have the experience to back it up!
Evy
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metroman well said!
QFCAINER FOR YOUR INFO!!
The grass is always greaner on the other side!
Only a small % of pilots make the majors in Australia, and the amount of work and personal sacrafice to get there is incredible.
While you QFCainer earn $20ph may have bought a house upgraded a car and found a cute Mrs and drink at the pub on a Friday, a pilot has to invest almost 50K to earn less than $300 per week working 6 days a week flying in some cases on unsafe equipment in less than desirable weather with a employer treating you as an exploitable commodity as many will gladly put up with more crap for less money. On top of that if you were not born with a silverspoon up your backside you need to save to continue with your training, pay to keep current and now cough up for casa's 15mil per year cost fund injection schemes.
The small few you see strolling up to the gate with a shiney set of wings and a BMW parked out the front is not a representation of what its like to be a pilot (check most GA fields in Australia), just a reward for the huge personal sacrifice along the way (Even these guys put up with a hell of alot, missing kids birthdays, O/S for christmas Aviation induced divorce, crazy hours and lack of sleep). You really want to fly if you want to travel the gauntlet in Oz these days!
An instructor once said to me, Aviation is not a job, but rather a lifestyle. How true he was.
4S
QFCAINER FOR YOUR INFO!!
The grass is always greaner on the other side!
Only a small % of pilots make the majors in Australia, and the amount of work and personal sacrafice to get there is incredible.
While you QFCainer earn $20ph may have bought a house upgraded a car and found a cute Mrs and drink at the pub on a Friday, a pilot has to invest almost 50K to earn less than $300 per week working 6 days a week flying in some cases on unsafe equipment in less than desirable weather with a employer treating you as an exploitable commodity as many will gladly put up with more crap for less money. On top of that if you were not born with a silverspoon up your backside you need to save to continue with your training, pay to keep current and now cough up for casa's 15mil per year cost fund injection schemes.
The small few you see strolling up to the gate with a shiney set of wings and a BMW parked out the front is not a representation of what its like to be a pilot (check most GA fields in Australia), just a reward for the huge personal sacrifice along the way (Even these guys put up with a hell of alot, missing kids birthdays, O/S for christmas Aviation induced divorce, crazy hours and lack of sleep). You really want to fly if you want to travel the gauntlet in Oz these days!
An instructor once said to me, Aviation is not a job, but rather a lifestyle. How true he was.
4S
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iNCOGNITO......and interesting statement...
"Just remember,If we forget you might die.....what a load of horses#$t.....you may sign the paperwork but I make decision as to whether we go or not,..by the way,I can read and I do read the MEL,not only the flight crew procedures but also MTX procedures....
If I,M reading this wrong ,then I stand corrected,but it seems you have driven a wedge between flight crew and lame,and everbody else thats works for the same airline....you are obviously not a team player so you need to procure a position that suits your attitude....by the way,Imake $134.17/hr/85hrs per mth and have a great lifestyle....NO COMPLAINTS!!!...PB
"Just remember,If we forget you might die.....what a load of horses#$t.....you may sign the paperwork but I make decision as to whether we go or not,..by the way,I can read and I do read the MEL,not only the flight crew procedures but also MTX procedures....
If I,M reading this wrong ,then I stand corrected,but it seems you have driven a wedge between flight crew and lame,and everbody else thats works for the same airline....you are obviously not a team player so you need to procure a position that suits your attitude....by the way,Imake $134.17/hr/85hrs per mth and have a great lifestyle....NO COMPLAINTS!!!...PB
