Pilots ready to fight Jetstar in court
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Townsville,Nth Queensland
Posts: 2,717
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Pilots ready to fight Jetstar in court
Fri "The Australian"
Pilots ready to fight Jetstar in court
From: By Steve Creedy
March 10, 2006
QANTAS pilots are lodging an appeal and launching Federal Court action after yesterday failing in their first bid to stop a new Jetstar agreement that they claim undercuts industry wages and conditions.
The Industrial Relations Commission yesterday refused to hear arguments from the Australian and International Pilots Association against the certification of an enterprise bargaining agreement endorsed by Jetstar pilots.
More than 160 of Jetstar's 250 pilots, none of whom are AIPA members, voted in favour of changes that allow the low-cost Qantas (qan.ASX:Quote,News) offshoot to fly wide-body jets overseas.
The deal is a significant step forward for Jetstar, which will next week put a new enterprise agreement to cabin staff.
"It's a locked-in agreement and obviously a very important development for the international long-haul project which we are headlong down the road to undertaking," Jetstar spokesman Simon Westaway said.
"Whatever views are expressed outside of that are individual people's or groups' views. Our pilot group voted positively for the agreement, the commission this morning certified the agreement, so the agreement is as it stands."
Jetstar, identified as a major Qantas growth vehicle, plans to launch international flights by year's end with costs 40 per cent below existing services.
But Qantas pilots say the deal, which pays Jetstar international pilots up to $100,000 a year less than their mainline counterparts, lowers industry salary levels and conditions.
The union plans to appeal to the full bench of the IRC because it believes a general aviation award - which was used to apply a "no disadvantage" test in yesterday's decision - does not reflect the pay and conditions of airline pilots.
It also says Qantas pilots who were promised positions at the airline were not part of the vote, and has lodged a Federal Court claim that it contravenes workplace legislation.
AIPA president Ian Woods said the commission's decision was a surprise as the union had simply sought an opportunity to put material before it. The AIPA had no choice but to appeal, but the union was not considering industrial action if its legal challenge failed.
====================================================
Pilots ready to fight Jetstar in court
From: By Steve Creedy
March 10, 2006
QANTAS pilots are lodging an appeal and launching Federal Court action after yesterday failing in their first bid to stop a new Jetstar agreement that they claim undercuts industry wages and conditions.
The Industrial Relations Commission yesterday refused to hear arguments from the Australian and International Pilots Association against the certification of an enterprise bargaining agreement endorsed by Jetstar pilots.
More than 160 of Jetstar's 250 pilots, none of whom are AIPA members, voted in favour of changes that allow the low-cost Qantas (qan.ASX:Quote,News) offshoot to fly wide-body jets overseas.
The deal is a significant step forward for Jetstar, which will next week put a new enterprise agreement to cabin staff.
"It's a locked-in agreement and obviously a very important development for the international long-haul project which we are headlong down the road to undertaking," Jetstar spokesman Simon Westaway said.
"Whatever views are expressed outside of that are individual people's or groups' views. Our pilot group voted positively for the agreement, the commission this morning certified the agreement, so the agreement is as it stands."
Jetstar, identified as a major Qantas growth vehicle, plans to launch international flights by year's end with costs 40 per cent below existing services.
But Qantas pilots say the deal, which pays Jetstar international pilots up to $100,000 a year less than their mainline counterparts, lowers industry salary levels and conditions.
The union plans to appeal to the full bench of the IRC because it believes a general aviation award - which was used to apply a "no disadvantage" test in yesterday's decision - does not reflect the pay and conditions of airline pilots.
It also says Qantas pilots who were promised positions at the airline were not part of the vote, and has lodged a Federal Court claim that it contravenes workplace legislation.
AIPA president Ian Woods said the commission's decision was a surprise as the union had simply sought an opportunity to put material before it. The AIPA had no choice but to appeal, but the union was not considering industrial action if its legal challenge failed.
====================================================
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Sydney
Posts: 731
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Wirraway
More than 160 of Jetstar's 250 pilots, none of whom are AIPA members, voted in favour of changes that allow the low-cost Qantas =
Incorrect again Mr Creedy.
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Sydney
Posts: 209
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Its all over in this country guys, forget the industrial relations commission, start looking at Flight International, www.cathay.com and www.dragonair.com, because these are only places that pay the real money anymore. We all better start getting used to eating rice and rogan josh. Otherwise enjoy living in Australia, working for parasitic leeching companies that use the fact you won't leave this sun burnt as an excuse to pay us sub standard salaries, buy your cheaply built weather board heap of crap home somewhere between the outskirts of your lovely duel basing, and reap the rewards of the crop you have sown!
Any guess how long it takes for people at j* to start complaining about their conditions, I say three to four years, because at VB it was about one year after the expansion stopped. Would love to be a cruise FO on a base salary of around $45Kpa for 3 years, especially eating out and dinning in some of the most expensive cities in Asia, this is going to be funny to watch. They will end up like SQ and CX cabin crews that can't afford to eat out and eat noodles in their hotel room, Ha Ha. But hay, maybe they will have to still get used to eating rice and curries when they base them overseas anyway!
Any guess how long it takes for people at j* to start complaining about their conditions, I say three to four years, because at VB it was about one year after the expansion stopped. Would love to be a cruise FO on a base salary of around $45Kpa for 3 years, especially eating out and dinning in some of the most expensive cities in Asia, this is going to be funny to watch. They will end up like SQ and CX cabin crews that can't afford to eat out and eat noodles in their hotel room, Ha Ha. But hay, maybe they will have to still get used to eating rice and curries when they base them overseas anyway!
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Sydney
Posts: 209
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
[QUOTE]All very funny until they spud one in,DD[QUOTE]
Good call, but news flash, they said that about VB and it hasn't happened.
And ur2 has a point as well, you don't have to be working for J* to go and play golf! But once again guys, this is not my point, it's about our conditions and you can kiss them all goodbye, have fun working in this low paying part of the industry, my advise would be to get your applications in elsewhere before everyone else does, I have seen this happen before when a certain companies future looked rocky, and those that timmed the jump the best ended up with the best result for that particular time. So its all about timming, how long till we are all so pi$%ed that we either leave in droves and head OS or form one union and shove it to them! Those are the two only options left!
Good call, but news flash, they said that about VB and it hasn't happened.
And ur2 has a point as well, you don't have to be working for J* to go and play golf! But once again guys, this is not my point, it's about our conditions and you can kiss them all goodbye, have fun working in this low paying part of the industry, my advise would be to get your applications in elsewhere before everyone else does, I have seen this happen before when a certain companies future looked rocky, and those that timmed the jump the best ended up with the best result for that particular time. So its all about timming, how long till we are all so pi$%ed that we either leave in droves and head OS or form one union and shove it to them! Those are the two only options left!
Cathay and dragon may pay real money now but for how long? Surely it is time to realise that flying is not the glamour paying job it once was. Frankly i think i started at least twenty years too late! In a tough economuic global environment pay will not go up to meet inflation when companies are trying to make more profit.
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Sydney
Posts: 209
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Good point as well engine out, but its not Australia up there, so they have to pay the money to attract people to the job, and without our crews there they do spud them in, thats why it conditions up there in Asia will last longer than down here, the facts and statistics are there to see.
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Sydney
Posts: 38
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
For all you intellegent guys out there who want to express opinion and advise, have to wonder what your logic is.
Pay comes down to one thing like anything else. Supply and DEMAND.
This industry like everything else goes in one big cycle. Eventually pay will rebound and be on a par with the pre 9/11 days. As the DEMAND for pilots grows. Thats why the asian and middle east carriers pay what they do. WHo really wants to live there and work. No ONE! Who wants to live in Australia and work? EVERYONE. Qantas and Jetstar will never have to pay what the rest of the world does simply for that reason.
It then comes back to one thing. IF you became a pilot because you love flying, then you will always be happy. If you became a pilot to become rich, then you F*&^%D UP! Pissoff out of the industry and become a doctor or froklift driver and leave the job to the people who genuinely want to be there for the love of it. STOP BITCHING AND WHINGING ABOUT THE INDUSRTY THAT HAS BEEN HEADING TOWARDS THIS SITUATION IN THIS COUNRTY FOR THE LAST 10-15 YEARS. It may not be right but it is the way it is.
Pay comes down to one thing like anything else. Supply and DEMAND.
This industry like everything else goes in one big cycle. Eventually pay will rebound and be on a par with the pre 9/11 days. As the DEMAND for pilots grows. Thats why the asian and middle east carriers pay what they do. WHo really wants to live there and work. No ONE! Who wants to live in Australia and work? EVERYONE. Qantas and Jetstar will never have to pay what the rest of the world does simply for that reason.
It then comes back to one thing. IF you became a pilot because you love flying, then you will always be happy. If you became a pilot to become rich, then you F*&^%D UP! Pissoff out of the industry and become a doctor or froklift driver and leave the job to the people who genuinely want to be there for the love of it. STOP BITCHING AND WHINGING ABOUT THE INDUSRTY THAT HAS BEEN HEADING TOWARDS THIS SITUATION IN THIS COUNRTY FOR THE LAST 10-15 YEARS. It may not be right but it is the way it is.
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Australia
Posts: 80
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Speedbird,
What if you become a pilot and want to have a life as well? Are these two things mutually inexclusive?
Do you know that the J* deal only guarantees "free of duty at your Home Base for a minimum of 9 designated days off in 6 roster periods [months]".
Yep, promises are promises but the contract is the contract and that is what it says. So if the company so choose, days free of duty can be AWAY FROM HOME BASE - satisfies the CAO's, satisfies the contract.
So tell me, are pilots not able to have a career and a life? Are we to be at the complete mercy of the company. We all love flying, are professional and take great pride in our jobs. But remember, wives, kids, family and LIFE are just as important. It doesn't take long for the international jetsetter lifestyle to wear thin on most of us.
It is not just about the money!
What if you become a pilot and want to have a life as well? Are these two things mutually inexclusive?
Do you know that the J* deal only guarantees "free of duty at your Home Base for a minimum of 9 designated days off in 6 roster periods [months]".
Yep, promises are promises but the contract is the contract and that is what it says. So if the company so choose, days free of duty can be AWAY FROM HOME BASE - satisfies the CAO's, satisfies the contract.
So tell me, are pilots not able to have a career and a life? Are we to be at the complete mercy of the company. We all love flying, are professional and take great pride in our jobs. But remember, wives, kids, family and LIFE are just as important. It doesn't take long for the international jetsetter lifestyle to wear thin on most of us.
It is not just about the money!
Last edited by murgatroid; 10th Mar 2006 at 09:43.
Amen Murgatroid...
I'm sick of this bullsh1t sprouted by tools like Speedbird23. Of course we all started flying cause of some strange desire to get behind the controls of an aircraft and defy gravity. When I was a 7yo completely overwhelmed watching aeroplanes out at the airport I sure as sh1t wasn't thinking about the money or lifestyle or chasing girls all over the world.
But their comes a point where you develop other priorities. You want to buy a house, a car, go on holidays, spend time at home relaxing and generally live the life the rest of your mates have had while you've been busting your guts in GA. But when you get in an airline, just because you love it, doesn't mean you have to roll over and cop one where the sun don't shine.
TL
I'm sick of this bullsh1t sprouted by tools like Speedbird23. Of course we all started flying cause of some strange desire to get behind the controls of an aircraft and defy gravity. When I was a 7yo completely overwhelmed watching aeroplanes out at the airport I sure as sh1t wasn't thinking about the money or lifestyle or chasing girls all over the world.
But their comes a point where you develop other priorities. You want to buy a house, a car, go on holidays, spend time at home relaxing and generally live the life the rest of your mates have had while you've been busting your guts in GA. But when you get in an airline, just because you love it, doesn't mean you have to roll over and cop one where the sun don't shine.
TL
Doesn't matter how much you love your job at the end of the day any job is just that, a job. Remember folks you work to live not the other way around. As murgatroid said the problems with this deal isn't just the money on offer, it's the overall conditions.
Had my medical recently and the DAME was commenting that the biggest bitch most of the pilots he had seen of late was lack of time at home with the family and the fact they were always tired because of the hours they are working, esp BOC.
Remember most of the AN pilots never worked as hard as most of the guys are now, and the numbers of guys that I know of that died in their late 60s is scary.
Had my medical recently and the DAME was commenting that the biggest bitch most of the pilots he had seen of late was lack of time at home with the family and the fact they were always tired because of the hours they are working, esp BOC.
Remember most of the AN pilots never worked as hard as most of the guys are now, and the numbers of guys that I know of that died in their late 60s is scary.
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Nasaltown
Posts: 141
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
And another funny thing, Bloggsie, I personally know several Jet* Captains who are leaving Jet* (at short, short notice) to take up jobs overseas.
Jobs that pay 2 and 3 times the salary they're on now.
"Hearing" of Dragon Air pilots "applying" to join Jet*, and having them actually leave a job that gives them shiploads more $$$$$'s, shiploads more leave, and shiploads more lifestyle are worlds apart.
The management rumour mills have got you guys jumping at your OWN shadows.
Australia might be a great country -IF you've got the income to enjoy it, after the tax man has halved your wage.
Even 737 drivers in India are picking up USD10.5K per month, and getting the time off to enjoy it.
Dragon Air pays more than that (taking allowances and bonuses into account).
WTF would they want to come here for a miserable $6k after tax?!
Jobs that pay 2 and 3 times the salary they're on now.
"Hearing" of Dragon Air pilots "applying" to join Jet*, and having them actually leave a job that gives them shiploads more $$$$$'s, shiploads more leave, and shiploads more lifestyle are worlds apart.
The management rumour mills have got you guys jumping at your OWN shadows.
Australia might be a great country -IF you've got the income to enjoy it, after the tax man has halved your wage.
Even 737 drivers in India are picking up USD10.5K per month, and getting the time off to enjoy it.
Dragon Air pays more than that (taking allowances and bonuses into account).
WTF would they want to come here for a miserable $6k after tax?!
Even 737 drivers in India are picking up USD10.5K per month, and getting the time off to enjoy it.
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Nasaltown
Posts: 141
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Not true.Just been to India to visit relatives and have been talking to some pilots.
I can assure you, from 1st hand knowledge
that foreign pilots are being offered contracts that pay USD10.5k, per month.Over time, the Indian pilots will also see their conditions improve - unless the Jet* pilots go across there, and offer to fly the new, shiney aircraft for less!
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Where I'm not alarmed
Posts: 454
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
TIME TO STOP DREAMING
Originally Posted by Transition Layer
Amen Murgatroid...
,,,,, When I was a 7yo completely overwhelmed watching aeroplanes out at the airport I sure as sh1t wasn't thinking about the money or lifestyle or chasing girls all over the world.
But their comes a point where you develop other priorities. You want to buy a house, a car, go on holidays, spend time at home relaxing and generally live the life the rest of your mates have had while you've been busting your guts in GA. But when you get in an airline, just because you love it, doesn't mean you have to roll over and cop one where the sun don't shine.
TL
,,,,, When I was a 7yo completely overwhelmed watching aeroplanes out at the airport I sure as sh1t wasn't thinking about the money or lifestyle or chasing girls all over the world.
But their comes a point where you develop other priorities. You want to buy a house, a car, go on holidays, spend time at home relaxing and generally live the life the rest of your mates have had while you've been busting your guts in GA. But when you get in an airline, just because you love it, doesn't mean you have to roll over and cop one where the sun don't shine.
TL
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Where I'm not alarmed
Posts: 454
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Ronnie Honker
WTF would they want to come here for a miserable $6k after tax?!
Ronnie needs to broaden his outlook and get out of his own little world. $6k after tax equals $72,000 after tax a year. Most Australians would be over the moon with that kind of take home pay. In fact, most Ozmates get by on less that half of this. Get a grip old chap - how bloody miserable can you get?