480 jobs go in Qantas closure
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Originally Posted by domo
qantas went to uk, china, south africa to employ enginners these people settled in sydney with their familys got morgages qantas no longer needs them sacked at 45 years of age in an industry with no future thanks qantas
qantas employed 550 apprentices where are they going to get jobs
better off being a plummer at least you get job portability
astra went bust qantas saved them via forstaff they now take the jobs off sydney maintenance thanks qantas
and they say enginners bitch all the time,woomera we are driven to dispare I wish emirates would buy the company
qantas employed 550 apprentices where are they going to get jobs
better off being a plummer at least you get job portability
astra went bust qantas saved them via forstaff they now take the jobs off sydney maintenance thanks qantas
and they say enginners bitch all the time,woomera we are driven to dispare I wish emirates would buy the company
Now Qantas can threaten everyone at avalon with the we will go to China story for a year.
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[QUOTE=peterlongbeach]What shenanigans at forstaff AV, dont make statements unless you can explain.
[/QUOTE
Probably refers to forstaff who can,t get pays and leaves right after years of operation the dirty little deals with the ALAEA and the placing of people in jobs they are not capable of doing crap training schemes that lead to no where and qantas not been able to plan there jobs and blaming eveyone but there system of work and prehaps the people smoking outside all day don,t see what really goes,s on.
[/QUOTEProbably refers to forstaff who can,t get pays and leaves right after years of operation the dirty little deals with the ALAEA and the placing of people in jobs they are not capable of doing crap training schemes that lead to no where and qantas not been able to plan there jobs and blaming eveyone but there system of work and prehaps the people smoking outside all day don,t see what really goes,s on.
Last edited by Apophis; 9th Mar 2006 at 07:44.
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So what's the go with Avalon? Will the guy that moves to Avalon remain a QANTAS employee like the guys that took supervision positions years ago or will most of them end up employees of Forstaff?
Another ? for someone who knows, Is the EBA for Forstaff employees with Forstaff or QANTAS? It is up for negotiation soon isn't it?
Another ? for someone who knows, Is the EBA for Forstaff employees with Forstaff or QANTAS? It is up for negotiation soon isn't it?
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Originally Posted by Syd eng
So what's the go with Avalon? Will the guy that moves to Avalon remain a QANTAS employee like the guys that took supervision positions years ago or will most of them end up employees of Forstaff?
Another ? for someone who knows, Is the EBA for Forstaff employees with Forstaff or QANTAS? It is up for negotiation soon isn't it?
Another ? for someone who knows, Is the EBA for Forstaff employees with Forstaff or QANTAS? It is up for negotiation soon isn't it?
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Dont blame the work force
[quote=Apophis]
Dont blame the avalon work force for what happened today have a good look at the ALAEA, we are only trying to make a living like everyone else.And also if avalon is so bad why have we got a very good record on safety and getting a/c out on time. Its not the workforce that makes back door deals with the company. Good old ALAEA have your shot at them not the employees trying to feed their familys. This is not having a go at sydney but I do wish you all good luck, in what those employees do in the future.
Originally Posted by peterlongbeach
What shenanigans at forstaff AV, dont make statements unless you can explain.[/QUOTE
Probably refers to forstaff who can,t get pays and leaves right after years of operation the dirty little deals with the ALAEA and the placing of people in jobs they are not capable of doing crap training schemes that lead to no where and qantas not been able to plan there jobs and blaming eveyone but there system of work and prehaps the people smoking outside all day don,t see what really goes,s on.
[/QUOTEProbably refers to forstaff who can,t get pays and leaves right after years of operation the dirty little deals with the ALAEA and the placing of people in jobs they are not capable of doing crap training schemes that lead to no where and qantas not been able to plan there jobs and blaming eveyone but there system of work and prehaps the people smoking outside all day don,t see what really goes,s on.
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Forstaff EBA
Originally Posted by Syd eng
So what's the go with Avalon? Will the guy that moves to Avalon remain a QANTAS employee like the guys that took supervision positions years ago or will most of them end up employees of Forstaff?
Another ? for someone who knows, Is the EBA for Forstaff employees with Forstaff or QANTAS? It is up for negotiation soon isn't it?
Another ? for someone who knows, Is the EBA for Forstaff employees with Forstaff or QANTAS? It is up for negotiation soon isn't it?
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Qantas Engineering - Questions and Answers
/noticias.info/ The following Question and Answers provide additional information on Qantas' decision to keep heavy maintenance in Australia.
What is behind the engineering review?
Qantas, with the assistance of its people, has undergone significant transformation in recent years, including engineering.
However, the unprecedented upheavals in global aviation in more recent years have seen much more accelerated outsourcing of engineering and maintenance by major airlines.
This has resulted in facilities being established in countries with significant scale and immediate cost advantage against 'in-house' operations like Qantas of 15 to 20 per cent.
This is not a position we can sustain without major change.
The high cost of fuel and increasingly competitive environment mean Qantas must continue to transform its business and move to a lower cost base in all areas of its business if it to prosper and grow.
Every area of Qantas Engineering is being reviewed.
With regard to wide body heavy maintenance, the review highlighted two viable options for meeting this challenge - move the work offshore or restructure our operations in Australia.
We chose to restructure in Australia - a decision that will require the closure of Qantas' Sydney heavy maintenance operations.
Why close down Sydney?
We cannot achieve the efficiencies we need if we continue to operate from three wide body heavy maintenance facilities (Sydney, Brisbane and Avalon).
It is not possible to remain in Sydney because there are severe space constraints, even for line and base maintenance. In fact, we have already had to move many engineering and maintenance functions out of Sydney because of space problems.
At Avalon, we have the space and the required skills and experience to do this work.
When will the changeover happen?
The Sydney Heavy Maintenance operation will start winding down immediately, and close on 31 May 2006. All of our Boeing 747 work will be transferred to Avalon by this date.
What will happen with A380 heavy maintenance?
Qantas Engineering is in the process of developing base maintenance facilities for the A380 in Sydney, but it is unlikely that A380 heavy maintenance will be undertaken in Australia.
Given the small A380 fleet, in the short to medium term, airlines will most likely look to form joint ventures or use independent providers.
What about the planned industrial action?
The Australian Workers Union and Australian Metal Workers Union have proposed work-to-rule industrial action over the next three months in relation to their EBA negotiations. We are not expecting any impact on our business or any inconvenience to our customers are a result of this proposed action.
If the situation changes, however, we have contingency plans to minimise any disruptions.
Will there be any effect on safety standards?
Qantas would never put safety at risk, regardless of where our engineering work is carried out.
Qantas has been using the Avalon operation for maintenance work since 1997.
All work undertaken at Avalon has been done, and will continue to be done, in accordance with regulatory requirements and with Qantas standards and specifications.
How many staff will lose their jobs?
We expect the net effect to be around 340.
There will still be more than 2,900 people employed in engineering in Sydney.
Our first step will be to call for expressions of interest, although it is inevitable there will be some compulsory redundancies.
We will be doing everything possible to mitigate the effects on our staff including offering redeployment to other maintenance areas - for example, there are currently job opportunities for some Sydney Heavy Maintenance staff in Brisbane.
What will happen to Sydney-based apprentices?
All apprentices will be retained and given the opportunity to finish their training. We will be holding positions in the Qantas Group for apprentices in Sydney heavy maintenance graduating between now and June.
We continue to be committed to an apprenticeship program as a way to ensure a skills base into the future.
What assistance is being giving to staff?
Comprehensive information packs have been given to each employee in Sydney.
The communication and transition program we have in place for staff includes on-site counsellors, outplacement programs, and specialist advice on financial planning, careers, retirement and business seminars.
/noticias.info/ The following Question and Answers provide additional information on Qantas' decision to keep heavy maintenance in Australia.
What is behind the engineering review?
Qantas, with the assistance of its people, has undergone significant transformation in recent years, including engineering.
However, the unprecedented upheavals in global aviation in more recent years have seen much more accelerated outsourcing of engineering and maintenance by major airlines.
This has resulted in facilities being established in countries with significant scale and immediate cost advantage against 'in-house' operations like Qantas of 15 to 20 per cent.
This is not a position we can sustain without major change.
The high cost of fuel and increasingly competitive environment mean Qantas must continue to transform its business and move to a lower cost base in all areas of its business if it to prosper and grow.
Every area of Qantas Engineering is being reviewed.
With regard to wide body heavy maintenance, the review highlighted two viable options for meeting this challenge - move the work offshore or restructure our operations in Australia.
We chose to restructure in Australia - a decision that will require the closure of Qantas' Sydney heavy maintenance operations.
Why close down Sydney?
We cannot achieve the efficiencies we need if we continue to operate from three wide body heavy maintenance facilities (Sydney, Brisbane and Avalon).
It is not possible to remain in Sydney because there are severe space constraints, even for line and base maintenance. In fact, we have already had to move many engineering and maintenance functions out of Sydney because of space problems.
At Avalon, we have the space and the required skills and experience to do this work.
When will the changeover happen?
The Sydney Heavy Maintenance operation will start winding down immediately, and close on 31 May 2006. All of our Boeing 747 work will be transferred to Avalon by this date.
What will happen with A380 heavy maintenance?
Qantas Engineering is in the process of developing base maintenance facilities for the A380 in Sydney, but it is unlikely that A380 heavy maintenance will be undertaken in Australia.
Given the small A380 fleet, in the short to medium term, airlines will most likely look to form joint ventures or use independent providers.
What about the planned industrial action?
The Australian Workers Union and Australian Metal Workers Union have proposed work-to-rule industrial action over the next three months in relation to their EBA negotiations. We are not expecting any impact on our business or any inconvenience to our customers are a result of this proposed action.
If the situation changes, however, we have contingency plans to minimise any disruptions.
Will there be any effect on safety standards?
Qantas would never put safety at risk, regardless of where our engineering work is carried out.
Qantas has been using the Avalon operation for maintenance work since 1997.
All work undertaken at Avalon has been done, and will continue to be done, in accordance with regulatory requirements and with Qantas standards and specifications.
How many staff will lose their jobs?
We expect the net effect to be around 340.
There will still be more than 2,900 people employed in engineering in Sydney.
Our first step will be to call for expressions of interest, although it is inevitable there will be some compulsory redundancies.
We will be doing everything possible to mitigate the effects on our staff including offering redeployment to other maintenance areas - for example, there are currently job opportunities for some Sydney Heavy Maintenance staff in Brisbane.
What will happen to Sydney-based apprentices?
All apprentices will be retained and given the opportunity to finish their training. We will be holding positions in the Qantas Group for apprentices in Sydney heavy maintenance graduating between now and June.
We continue to be committed to an apprenticeship program as a way to ensure a skills base into the future.
What assistance is being giving to staff?
Comprehensive information packs have been given to each employee in Sydney.
The communication and transition program we have in place for staff includes on-site counsellors, outplacement programs, and specialist advice on financial planning, careers, retirement and business seminars.
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It could also be the reason the A330 training for base maint. has been slow. They knew that they will have a few more in base soon from heavy.
A330 A checks are to start in base soon.
Did any apprentices get Heavy as a final section? Don't know of any getting base, a few got shoved into cabin.
This could be a run of changes that could see QANTAS not actually have any employees in a few years time. A shelf company that leases some planes.
A330 A checks are to start in base soon.
Did any apprentices get Heavy as a final section? Don't know of any getting base, a few got shoved into cabin.
This could be a run of changes that could see QANTAS not actually have any employees in a few years time. A shelf company that leases some planes.
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I'm not an engineer but reading these posts it seems a classic divide and conquer within the engineering labour force, just like whats happening in every area of QF (except the middle managers and executives of course!) 
The sooner that the Engineer, Flight Attendant, and Pilot unions (the coal hard face that keeps QF operating) join together and form a massive conglomerate that can cripple this management with a pin drop, the better we all will be. And for those that say "Oh you cant do that you'll lose your jobs, its economic reality we need to change", well I'd rather go down fighting than being a frog put in boiling water and the heat slowly increasing..... Just another symptom of this right wing ultra conservative country we are turning into with the Eyebrow in power.....
The sooner that the Engineer, Flight Attendant, and Pilot unions (the coal hard face that keeps QF operating) join together and form a massive conglomerate that can cripple this management with a pin drop, the better we all will be. And for those that say "Oh you cant do that you'll lose your jobs, its economic reality we need to change", well I'd rather go down fighting than being a frog put in boiling water and the heat slowly increasing..... Just another symptom of this right wing ultra conservative country we are turning into with the Eyebrow in power.....
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There are 11 Qantas positions available at avalon. These consist of Lame Mech,Lame Avionics,Tech specialist structures and a workshop coordinator.
Any one else will be employed by forstaff.
Staff at H/m in general don't begrudge forstaff employees having a job, however the work they have was set up with the assistance of H/M syd lames and coordinated by the then president (or secretary) of the ALAEAand who is now a very snr manager of forstaff I believe. The work was overflow work...reconfigs etc that could not be done in Sydney because of the extra work that the Strut mod program had caused.
Our jobs have been stolen. The culprits are obvious.
Don't try and tell me that Avv is more efficient than Sydney. The only support that Avv gives Sydney is to send our tooling back up when we need it.
The Manager of Heavy Maintenance should be held accountable for letting Sydney get shafted like this. Productivity increases could have been made relatively easily with out attacking jobs and wages and conditions.
He selected, and allowed below standard local management to run Heavy Sydney for the last five years. he didn't allow the new boys to have a chance. Lean Sigma is half complete. Opportunities for cross skilling have been missed. 20% is nothing. If the chinese are only 20% cheaper - cost wise they must be super bludgers. We have spent the last 12 months doing **** all half the time because of a lack of workshop support. they kept allowing tyhe workshop blokes to leave with packages.
We have been set up to fail so that Keith can make Avv and Bne look good.
They still don't work well but we got the bullet.
Thanks Keith
Any one else will be employed by forstaff.
Staff at H/m in general don't begrudge forstaff employees having a job, however the work they have was set up with the assistance of H/M syd lames and coordinated by the then president (or secretary) of the ALAEAand who is now a very snr manager of forstaff I believe. The work was overflow work...reconfigs etc that could not be done in Sydney because of the extra work that the Strut mod program had caused.
Our jobs have been stolen. The culprits are obvious.
Don't try and tell me that Avv is more efficient than Sydney. The only support that Avv gives Sydney is to send our tooling back up when we need it.
The Manager of Heavy Maintenance should be held accountable for letting Sydney get shafted like this. Productivity increases could have been made relatively easily with out attacking jobs and wages and conditions.
He selected, and allowed below standard local management to run Heavy Sydney for the last five years. he didn't allow the new boys to have a chance. Lean Sigma is half complete. Opportunities for cross skilling have been missed. 20% is nothing. If the chinese are only 20% cheaper - cost wise they must be super bludgers. We have spent the last 12 months doing **** all half the time because of a lack of workshop support. they kept allowing tyhe workshop blokes to leave with packages.
We have been set up to fail so that Keith can make Avv and Bne look good.
They still don't work well but we got the bullet.
Thanks Keith
Last edited by Woomera; 9th Mar 2006 at 12:34.
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Lets try another scenario for the forum viewers.
Qantas hire overseas pilots (say from an asian airline) to fly all routes operated by Qantas on half the salaries.
The thought of this would not be accepted by the travelling public or government and would lead to an uproar
Yet the fact that this has now occurred in the Qanatas engineering world, in spite of the initial comments on the news; will in time be accepted by the Australian and indeed international flying public.
The engineering practices of an airline are what make an airline successful.
I'm sure you have all viewed the Aircrash TV shows and seen that there is no margin for maintenance errors. Usually the culture of an engineering facility is governed by the management attitudes.
As flight crew you should consider where and how well your maintenance is performed.
Qantas hire overseas pilots (say from an asian airline) to fly all routes operated by Qantas on half the salaries.
The thought of this would not be accepted by the travelling public or government and would lead to an uproar
Yet the fact that this has now occurred in the Qanatas engineering world, in spite of the initial comments on the news; will in time be accepted by the Australian and indeed international flying public.
The engineering practices of an airline are what make an airline successful.
I'm sure you have all viewed the Aircrash TV shows and seen that there is no margin for maintenance errors. Usually the culture of an engineering facility is governed by the management attitudes.
As flight crew you should consider where and how well your maintenance is performed.
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"Staff at H/m in general don't begrudge forstaff employees having a job, however the work they have was set up with the assistance of H/M syd lames and coordinated by the then president (or secretary) of the ALAEAand who is now a very snr manager of forstaff I believe. The work was overflow work...reconfigs etc that could not be done in Sydney because of the extra work that the Strut mod program had caused."
Does this sound earily familiar to anyone working at Tullamarine? Melbourne has been whittled down from three lines to one on the premise of being able to return an aircraft to the fleet. Yet more and more "overflow" work is being sent to Avalon. First, it was disposal 737's. Now there are even core fleet 737-400's being sent to Avalon for C checks.
My concern is this, if there was a capacity problem at Melbourne, why didn't they hire more people to handle the work in house? Because, I believe, certain people have even more grand designs for Avalon. All this talk about third party work. Yet the management of Melbourne could not even secure the Jetstar 320 overnight work that is currently carried out in the old Ansett hangers by AAES.
As I have said previously, project 221 is outsourcing by stealth, and I fear more bad news maybe around the corner for all you chaps at Tullamarine. No matter how well you do churning out aircraft. Better to lump you all into one boat and then beat you all with the one big stick is perhaps the ultimate aim of the powers that be.
That said, Brisbane seems to have escaped without a scratch. I'll ask again, are they really operating at worlds best practise up there? From what I hear, they are still having a few problems getting aircraft out on time. Happy to be corrected.
Does this sound earily familiar to anyone working at Tullamarine? Melbourne has been whittled down from three lines to one on the premise of being able to return an aircraft to the fleet. Yet more and more "overflow" work is being sent to Avalon. First, it was disposal 737's. Now there are even core fleet 737-400's being sent to Avalon for C checks.
My concern is this, if there was a capacity problem at Melbourne, why didn't they hire more people to handle the work in house? Because, I believe, certain people have even more grand designs for Avalon. All this talk about third party work. Yet the management of Melbourne could not even secure the Jetstar 320 overnight work that is currently carried out in the old Ansett hangers by AAES.
As I have said previously, project 221 is outsourcing by stealth, and I fear more bad news maybe around the corner for all you chaps at Tullamarine. No matter how well you do churning out aircraft. Better to lump you all into one boat and then beat you all with the one big stick is perhaps the ultimate aim of the powers that be.
That said, Brisbane seems to have escaped without a scratch. I'll ask again, are they really operating at worlds best practise up there? From what I hear, they are still having a few problems getting aircraft out on time. Happy to be corrected.
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Originally Posted by Redstone
So what are the "relocation" non-options Turbo? Have they given a number for all or is it all a bit vague?
Bne has 70 positions for AMEs of all trades and Aircraft workers.Chock Chucker, Bne has all sorts of troubles and they are currently working to move back to the (shock horror dont mention the S word) Sydney way because it works better.
Something else that pisses me off is that our redundancy quotes were printed out on th 13th of Feb. One month those pricks have been sitting and waiting to cut out throats.
ps to go from H/M Line 1 on the 7x2 roster as a level 3 lame to Component O/Haul or something similar as a level 12 AME (if thats what you're employed at) on a 5x1 shift is to drop from 65k to 50K, as a level 9 you drop from 100k to 50k.
That is attacking the man, not playing the ball.
Last edited by Woomera; 9th Mar 2006 at 12:34.
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There are some really good guys up in Brisvegas, I have a feeling that most of the "teething" trouble has more to do with local management and their ways, have also heard as you say Turbo that management are slowly being brought round in their way of thinking.
So I wonder what the management types and seccondment sloths will do? Shifted sideways while the front line troops all charge the machine gun nests no doubt.
So I wonder what the management types and seccondment sloths will do? Shifted sideways while the front line troops all charge the machine gun nests no doubt.
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Well, theres a whole wake up call for those blokes.
Dr Phil in charge of Bne is only changing because of the concerted efforts of ex line 1 staff up there to try and make the place safe.
I would also like to point out that the SNR PRODUCTION MANAGER OF SYDNEY HEAVY MAINTENANCE DID NOT BOTHER TO TURN UP TO TELL HIS STAFF THAT THEY HAD GOT THE BULLET AT THE PRESENTATION TODAY.
THANKS DAVE.(I hope the sun still rise tomorrow for everyone)
Dr Phil in charge of Bne is only changing because of the concerted efforts of ex line 1 staff up there to try and make the place safe.
I would also like to point out that the SNR PRODUCTION MANAGER OF SYDNEY HEAVY MAINTENANCE DID NOT BOTHER TO TURN UP TO TELL HIS STAFF THAT THEY HAD GOT THE BULLET AT THE PRESENTATION TODAY.
THANKS DAVE.(I hope the sun still rise tomorrow for everyone)